Israel does not exist

[Shusha]

Now for Humanity and Coyote and all my other pro-Palestine friends this does not in any way deny the existence of the Arab Palestinian people as a distinct people if they want to self-identify in that way. Nor does it prevent the eventual existence of a separate Arab Palestine. And this does not include the Oslo Accords, which I intentionally left out because Tinmore does "believe" in those either.

 

[Indeependent]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

Will you please provide a Link to something that doesn't exist!

 

[Boston1]

Now for Humanity and Coyote and all my other pro-Palestine friends this does not in any way deny the existence of the Arab Palestinian people as a distinct people if they want to self-identify in that way. Nor does it prevent the eventual existence of a separate Arab Palestine. And this does not include the Oslo Accords, which I intentionally left out because Tinmore does "believe" in those either.

There's already two separate Arab palestines, Once is Jordan, the other Gaza. Lets get the story straight here;-)

While I can appreciate the effort you are putting in, there's already two palestines if you want to go there.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

 

[Shusha]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

The same process which created Jordan. Syria. Lebanon. Iraq. Its all the same. Why would it be any different?

 

[Boston1]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

Great question. most of the time, the antisemites are just miming the same old same old, but you've really hit on a new topic here.

Lets see, organize my thoughts for a moment. By what process was Israel created ? Hmmm.

Same process as all the other sovereign countries in the area, except in this case the surrounding, other newly formed Arab countries threw a tantrum because JUST ONE country was Judaic ;-)

 

[Shusha]

Now for Humanity and Coyote and all my other pro-Palestine friends this does not in any way deny the existence of the Arab Palestinian people as a distinct people if they want to self-identify in that way. Nor does it prevent the eventual existence of a separate Arab Palestine. And this does not include the Oslo Accords, which I intentionally left out because Tinmore does "believe" in those either.

There's already two separate Arab palestines, Once is Jordan, the other Gaza. Lets get the story straight here;-)

While I can appreciate the effort you are putting in, there's already two palestines if you want to go there.

I know. And I can appreciate that too. In the end, I don't care who sits on what land or where new borders are drawn if they need to be drawn. As long as those Arab Palestinians who remain in Israel are peaceful and end their wish to destroy the Jewish State. I would prefer the conflict to end in a peace agreement between Israel and whoever else there is. But if they have to be removed from Israel in order to keep the Jewish people safe, then, honestly, so be it.

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore

See, YOU are the one who keeps trying to make exceptions because people are Jewish. The fact that one government of the five nations created at the time was ethnically Jewish makes absolutely no difference in the validity of the treaties involved.

 

[montelatici]

Now for Humanity and Coyote and all my other pro-Palestine friends this does not in any way deny the existence of the Arab Palestinian people as a distinct people if they want to self-identify in that way. Nor does it prevent the eventual existence of a separate Arab Palestine. And this does not include the Oslo Accords, which I intentionally left out because Tinmore does "believe" in those either.

There's already two separate Arab palestines, Once is Jordan, the other Gaza. Lets get the story straight here;-)

While I can appreciate the effort you are putting in, there's already two palestines if you want to go there.

How is Jordan Palestine? It never was geographically or politically Palestine. Let's get the story straight here. Throwing a former province of the Arab Kingdom of Syria that the French weren't able to grab under the administrative control of the Palestine Mandate doesn't magically change the a territory from one to another.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore

See, YOU are the one who keeps trying to make exceptions because people are Jewish. The fact that one government of the five nations created at the time was ethnically Jewish makes absolutely no difference in the validity of the treaties involved.

The difference is that to create Israel, European settler colonists were transferred into Palestine through force of arms and the native and indigenous non-Jews were dispossessed.

 

[Humanity]

Argueing over facts simply doesn't work...

Israel exists, end of story!

Of course it does.

But I think it is also important to examine the context of WHY people make assertions so in contrary to facts. I mean, why would people DO that?

In this case, it is a legal fiction in order to excuse and justify the murder of Jews. It is a common thread that lurks beneath the surface of what appears to be a legal argument. And it exists in members of this board, as well as in the Arab Palestinian community. It is a very dangerous idea and one that needs to be recognized and dealt with if we ever want to solve this conflict.

I could probably make a few guesses as to why people think this... Though most guesses would revolve around questioning their sanity!

In a similar vein to those who question the existence of Palestine!

Seems pointless and futile!

 

[Sixties Fan]

Argueing over facts simply doesn't work...

Israel exists, end of story!

Of course it does.

But I think it is also important to examine the context of WHY people make assertions so in contrary to facts. I mean, why would people DO that?

In this case, it is a legal fiction in order to excuse and justify the murder of Jews. It is a common thread that lurks beneath the surface of what appears to be a legal argument. And it exists in members of this board, as well as in the Arab Palestinian community. It is a very dangerous idea and one that needs to be recognized and dealt with if we ever want to solve this conflict.

I could probably make a few guesses as to why people think this... Though most guesses would revolve around questioning their sanity!

In a similar vein to those who question the existence of Palestine!

Seems pointless and futile!

How is questioning the existence of a country named Palestine in the same vein as questioning the existence of a country named Israel?

Israel was once a Nation. On the land where it stands now.

When was there ever a country, not talking about a region, called Palestine, governed by people called Palestinians?

When have the Arabs, who are invaders from 1400 years ago into the area, ever called any one of their clans Palestinians, or any one of their groups, for that matter?

So, let me ask you:

Has a country called Palestine ever existed on the disputed land?
Does a country/state called Palestine exist today?
What were or are its borders? Its capital, its currency?
Does it have an infrastructure not dependent of all the other countries which surround it?


The Jewish people have agreed to partition the Mandate for Palestine with the Arabs living on the land.
77 % of that land was taken without the Jews being even asked about it, to the Hashemites (who are not Palestinians) in 1922.
The Jews agreed to partition the land in 1937 and in 1947.

2000 was about negotiating and partitioning and coming to an end to the conflict. And so was 2008. The Jews accepted what was offered. What did the Arabs/Palestinians do during those attempts to end the conflict and create a Palestine State?

Which side says that the other does not exist as a country and/or has no right to exist, and wants to put an end to its existence by any means necessary?

Which side has it written in their charters that their goal is to destroy a country which already exists?

Which side has created an organization meant to help destroy an existing country by any means possible?
----------

There are so many more questions, but let stay with the ones above.

We are not against a Palestinian State although Jordan is already one, and Gaza should have become one after 2005.

We are for peaceful co-existance as it is been happening with Jordan, Egypt, and now Saudi Arabia and many other Arab countries.

What does it take for the Palestinian leadership to say enough, we will negotiate a final treaty just as Egypt and Jordan have done and put an end to all the waste of money and misery brought by their denial of the State Israel?

Look at all Jordan and Egypt and other Arab countries get by collaborating, negotiating, doing business with Israel.


Why continue to say that Israel does not exist?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

The same process which created Jordan. Syria. Lebanon. Iraq. Its all the same. Why would it be any different?

There was quite a difference. In those countries the mandates established functioning, independent governments as charged by the LoN Covenant. Britain failed to do that in Palestine. They created a big mess then cut and run.

The mandate had nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

partition the Mandate for Palestine

The Mandate was not a place. It had no territory or borders. Therefor it could not be partitioned.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Which side says that the other does not exist as a country and/or has no right to exist, and wants to put an end to its existence by any means necessary?

That would be Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Does a country/state called Palestine exist today?

It does but it is occupied. Occupying powers do not acquire sovereignty over occupied territory.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

The same process which created Jordan. Syria. Lebanon. Iraq. Its all the same. Why would it be any different?

There was quite a difference. In those countries the mandates established functioning, independent governments as charged by the LoN Covenant. Britain failed to do that in Palestine. They created a big mess then cut and run.

The mandate had nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

The ONLY difference between the other 3 Mandates and the Mandate for Palestine, is that the Mandate for Palestine was to be the recreation of the Nation of Israel giving sovereignty to the Jews of their ancient homeland.

The British were anti Jews, as per Christianity's teachings, and did not want to give even one duma to the Jews to be sovereign of.

The Arabs were anti Jews, as per Islam's teachings, and did not want to give even one duma to the Jews to be sovereign of.

The British were defeated and Finally ran out of the land which did not belong to them, which they were to supervise until Israel was declared sovereign.

Israel became sovereign after the British eventually left, which should have happened a decade or so before they did finally leave.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure it does. You just don't like the answer.

I'll simplify.

Israel is Palestine. Palestine is Israel. Wherever there is Palestine, it's Israel.

What process was used and what was the end result?

The same process which created Jordan. Syria. Lebanon. Iraq. Its all the same. Why would it be any different?

There was quite a difference. In those countries the mandates established functioning, independent governments as charged by the LoN Covenant. Britain failed to do that in Palestine. They created a big mess then cut and run.

The mandate had nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

The ONLY difference between the other 3 Mandates and the Mandate for Palestine, is that the Mandate for Palestine was to be the recreation of the Nation of Israel giving sovereignty to the Jews of their ancient homeland.

The British were anti Jews, as per Christianity's teachings, and did not want to give even one duma to the Jews to be sovereign of.

The Arabs were anti Jews, as per Islam's teachings, and did not want to give even one duma to the Jews to be sovereign of.

The British were defeated and Finally ran out of the land which did not belong to them, which they were to supervise until Israel was declared sovereign.

Israel became sovereign after the British eventually left, which should have happened a decade or so before they did finally leave.

I was correct. The Mandate had nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

 

[Indeependent]

Have there been any treaties with Palestine since 1949 that have changed that status?

You keep saying "treaties with Palestine" as though one can make a treaty with soil. You can't. States make treaties. Israel, as a State, has made treaties. Since 1948, including the 1949 Armistice Agreements!

You keep acting as though there is another legal entity here. There is not. In 1948/1949 the only entities were Israel, Jordan and Egypt.

There is. Palestine has been a state since the Treaty of Lausanne.

Have you actually read the entire treaty?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Have there been any treaties with Palestine since 1949 that have changed that status?

You keep saying "treaties with Palestine" as though one can make a treaty with soil. You can't. States make treaties. Israel, as a State, has made treaties. Since 1948, including the 1949 Armistice Agreements!

You keep acting as though there is another legal entity here. There is not. In 1948/1949 the only entities were Israel, Jordan and Egypt.

There is. Palestine has been a state since the Treaty of Lausanne.

Have you actually read the entire treaty?

I have. What is your point?