Islam - Tolerance and Peace

[Sky Dancer]

Indonesia's dominant religion and approximately 86%, or about 200 million, of its population identify as Muslims, making it the world's largest Muslim population

The Indonesian Constitution provides "all persons the right to worship according to their own religion or belief" and states that "the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God." The Government generally respects these provisions; however, some restrictions exist on certain types of religious activity and on unrecognized religions.

The Ministry of Religious Affairs extends official status to six faiths: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism. Religious organizations other than the six recognized faiths can register with the Government, but only with the Ministry for Culture and Tourism and only as social organizations. This restricts certain religious activities. Unregistered religious groups cannot rent venues to hold services and must find alternative means to practice their faiths.

Although it has an overwhelming Muslim majority, the country is not an Islamic state. Over the past 50 years, many Islamic groups sporadically have sought to establish an Islamic state, but the country's mainstream Muslim community, including influential social organizations such as Muhammadiyah and NU, reject the idea. Proponents of an Islamic state argued unsuccessfully in 1945 and throughout the parliamentary democracy period of the 1950s for the inclusion of language (the "Jakarta Charter") in the Constitution's preamble making it obligatory for Muslims to follow Shari'a. During the Suharto regime, the Government prohibited all advocacy of an Islamic state. With the loosening of restrictions on freedom of speech and religion that followed the fall of Suharto in 1998, proponents of the "Jakarta Charter" resumed advocacy efforts. This proved the case prior to the 2002 Annual Session of the People's Consultative Assembly (MPR), a body that has the power to change the Constitution. The nationalist political parties, regional representatives elected by provincial legislatures, and appointed police, military, and functional representatives, who together held a majority of seats in the MPR, rejected proposals to amend the Constitution to include Shari'a, and the measure never came to a formal vote. The MPR approved changes to the Constitution that mandated that the Government increase "faith and piety" in education. This decision, seen as a compromise to satisfy Islamist parties, set the scene for a controversial education bill signed into law in July 2003.

Shari'a generated debate and concern during 2004, and many of the issues raised touched on religious freedom. Aceh remained the only part of the country where the central Government specifically authorized Shari'a. Law 18/2001 granted Aceh special autonomy and included authority for Aceh to establish a system of Shari'a as an adjunct to, not a replacement for, national civil and criminal law. Before it could take effect, the law required the provincial legislature to approve local regulations ("qanun") incorporating Shari'a precepts into the legal code. Law 18/2001 states that the Shari'a courts would be "free from outside influence by any side." Article 25(3) states that the authority of the court will only apply to Muslims. Article 26(2) names the national Supreme Court as the court of appeal for Aceh's Shari'a courts.

Aceh is the only province that has Shari'a courts. Religious leaders responsible for drafting and implementing the Shari'a regulations stated that they had no plans to apply criminal sanctions for violations of Shari'a. Islamic law in Aceh, they said, would not provide for strict enforcement of fiqh or hudud, but rather would codify traditional Acehnese Islamic practice and values such as discipline, honesty, and proper behavior. They claimed enforcement would not depend on the police but rather on public education and societal consensus.

Because Muslims make up the overwhelming majority of Aceh's population, the public largely accepted Shari'a, which in most cases merely regularized common social practices. For example, a majority of women in Aceh already covered their heads in public. Provincial and district governments established Shari'a bureaus to handle public education about the new system, and local Islamic leaders, especially in North Aceh and Pidie, called for greater government promotion of Shari'a as a way to address mounting social ills. The imposition of martial law in Aceh in May 2003 had little impact on the implementation of Shari'a. The Martial Law Administration actively promoted Shari'a as a positive step toward social reconstruction and reconciliation. Some human rights and women's rights activists complained that implementation of Shari'a focused on superficial issues, such as proper Islamic dress, while ignoring deep-seated moral and social problems, such as corruption.

There were no reports of forced religious conversion, including of minor U.S. citizens who had been abducted or illegally removed from the United States, or of the refusal to allow such citizens to be returned to the United States. This coincided with a continuing de-escalation of violence in the country's main areas of interreligious conflict: the eastern provinces of Maluku, North Maluku, and Central Sulawesi.

Some Muslim, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist holy days are national holidays. Muslim holy days celebrated include the Isra and Mi'raj, Idul Fitr, Idul Adha, the Islamic New Year, and the Prophet's Birthday. National Christian holy days are Christmas Day, Good Friday, Pentecost, Easter and the Ascension of Christ. Three other national holidays are the Hindu holiday Nyepi, the Buddhist holiday Waisak, and Chinese New Year, celebrated by Confucians and other Chinese. On Bali all Hindu holy days are regional holidays, and public servants and others did not work on Saraswati Day, Galungan, and Kuningan.

The Government has a monopoly on organizing the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and in February, following the latest hajj, the Department of Religious Affairs drew sharp criticism for mismanaging the registration of approximately 30,000 prospective pilgrims after they had paid the required fees [citation needed]. The Government unilaterally expanded the country's quota of 205,000 pilgrims, claiming it had informal approval from the Saudi Government, an assertion that proved incorrect. Members of the House of Representatives have sponsored a bill to set up an independent institution, thus ending the department's monopoly.


Islam in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sky Dancer]

Islam in Somalia



Many stories circulate about Islamic radicalism in Somalia; it's quite complicated. Although there are radical Salafists allied to Al Qaeda, etc, there are also a number of other schools of Islamic thought here. In fact, while radicals have committed murders of civilians, many of the other conservatives have reserved violence only in fighting warlordism. Human rights defenders condemn practices like execution, dismemberment, and certain practices around rape and adultery, but there are Islamic leaders in Somalia who rarely if ever have used these punishments. Some of them instead have stepped up to use Islamic law to prevent the excesses allowed by warlords and Somali traditional law, like forced marriage and murder. These are the leaders most Somalis look to.

Few global media agencies cover what is the single best peace point in Somalia. Despite Islamic radicals importing ultra-conservative Salafism into the country's south, much of Somalia's 30+ generation was raised on socialism and moderate Islam. Women activists throughout the country and the Ministry of Women & Family Affairs in the northeast in particular have been an incredibly powerful force for positive change. There has been some competion between them, and complications regarding how each group tackles women's legal issues in the complex legal environment. But for the most part these leaders and networks should be protected. They will form the backbone of the new Somalia.
http://humanrights.change.org/blog/...tive_peaceful_side_of_the_african_horn_nation

 

[Sky Dancer]

Then there is Liberal Islam:

"Tolerance is another key tenet of Liberal Muslims, who are generally open to interfaith dialogue and conflict resolution with such communities as Jews, Christians, Hindus, and the numerous factions within Islam.

Liberal Muslims are more likely to reflect the idea of jihad in terms of the widely accepted "internal spiritual struggle" rather than an "armed struggle." The ideals of non-violence are prevalent in Liberal Muslim ideology and backed by Qu'ranic text; "permission to fight is given only to those who have been oppressed... who have been driven from their homes for saying,'God is our Lord'" (22:39)

Liberal movements within Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sky Dancer]

Karen Armstrong is a writer I respect:

"At the age of 19, Armstrong joined a Catholic convent, staying there for 17 years before deciding to leave in order to study the world's monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. Does she think that the religious establishment in the West -- ie the churches themselves -- are responsible for Western hostility to Islamic culture?

"Anti-Islamic doctrine is in-built in the Western ethos that was formulated during the Crusades," she says. "This was the period when the Western world was re-defining itself. The 11th century marked the end of the Dark Ages in Europe and the beginnings of the new Europe. The Crusades were the first co-operative act on the part of the whole new Europe, and the whole crusading ethos shaped the psyche of the key actors performing at this crucial time."

"Islam was the quintessential foreigner, and people resented Islam in Europe much as people in the Third World resent the US today. One could say that Islam then was the greatest world power, and it remained so up until the early years of the Ottoman empire. Muslims were everywhere in the Middle East, Turkey, Iran, South- East Asia, China. Wherever people went, there was Islam, and it was powerful, and people felt it as a threat."

The period of the Crusades was a crucial historical moment during which the West was defining itself, and Islam became a yardstick against which it measured itself. "Islam was everything that the West thought it was not, and it was at the time of the Crusades that the idea that Islam was essentially a violent religion took hold in the West. "Europe was projecting anxiety about its own behaviour onto Islam, and it did the same thing too with the Jewish people," Armstrong said.

Even in non-religious societies such as England, Armstrong believes that prejudice against Islam remains, saying that "I think it is in-built into people that Islam is a violent religion." These hostile feelings were given a new lease of life during the colonial period, Armstrong believes, since many of the colonised countries were Muslim countries, and the colonial powers saw in them what they regarded as 'backwardness', attributing this to Islam.

Although she feels that university campuses are almost the only places in the US where big questions are asked, Armstrong says that the events of 11 September divided US academics into two camps. The first camp, led by Martin Kramer, head of the Near and Middle East Studies Institute in Washington DC, accused Armstrong, together with academics such as John Esposito, head of Islamic-Christian Dialogue at Georgetown University, of 'duping' people into believing that Islam was not a threat, an argument Kramer claimed had been proved wrong by the attacks. Only a few weeks after 11 September, Kramer wrote an article, Ivory Towers Built on Sand, in which he put the blame squarely on academics for failing to predict the atrocities.

Armstrong explains how the media in the US attempted to silence opposing voices after 11 September. For example, she had been commissioned by the New Yorker magazine to write an article on Islam, but the article was killed and the magazine published one by the academic Bernard Lewis instead.

"They thought I am an apologist for Muslims, because my article was about the prophet as a peacemaker, and this did not suit their agenda as much as Lewis's did. Both Lewis and Kramer are staunch Zionists who write from a position of extreme bias. But people need to know that Islam is a universal religion, and that there is nothing aggressively oriental or anti-Western about it. Lewis's line, on the other hand, is that Islam is an inherently violent religion," she said. "


Islam and the West - an interview with Karen Armstrong

 

[RetiredGySgt]

We are fighting insurgents and terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan, NOT the entire population of Iraqi and Afghan Muslims. As for your irrelevant foray in discussing homosexuality, I would point out that plenty of Christians believe homosexuality is evil and needs to be stamped out. As I recall, you're one of them. No wonder you advise me to move somewhere dangerous in hopes I will be killed. I live peacefully and freely here in the US which is my home. I co-exist peacefully with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and all other religions here.

Lighten up RGS, this is a political message board, not a war zone.

I think you brought up an irrelvant topic because your arguments are so weak otherwise. Your argument is weak because you say ALL Muslims are the same. They're not. That's an arrogant and false claim. You cannot say ALL of anything and speak truthfully.

Islamic controlled countries have laws on the book allowing them to KILL homosexuals and arrest them. Now be so kind as to list non Muslim nations with those laws.

Islam is our enemy. Until or unless there is a reformation THIS remains true. Islam DEMANDS that the ENTIRE EARTH be Muslim. It allows that in order to bring this about Islam may forcefully convert people, murder unbelievers and subjugate those that it can if that is favorable to the situation.

You are beyond stupid when you post that Islam is peaceful and tolerant. EVERY single Muslim run Country is INTOLERANT and supports worldwide TERROR in order to further the Islamic goals.

Every Muslim supports Islamic teachings that the ENTIRE earth must be Muslim. Some believe an open war is acceptable to accomplish that and some believe they should wait a while longer before conquering the world.

Your religion and your sexual preference are EXACTLY important to this discussion. YOU keep claiming that Islam is tolerant and peaceful. Prove it. Move to an Islamic Country and inform the Government of your sexuality and your religious beliefs. Then tell us just how Tolerant they are.

Stop personalizing this debate. It's not about me, my religion or my sexuality. It's about your fear and loathing of all things Muslim and your willingness to use absolute language like ALL Muslims rather than the truth, which is SOME Muslims are like this and some are not.

How much do you know about the Sufi Muslims? They are peaceful. I've known some personally and hold them in high regard. What about the poets Rumi, Hafiz or Kabir?

I Have Been Thinking

I have been thinking ...
I have been thinking of the difference between water
and the waves on it. Rising,
water's still water, falling back,
it is water, will you give me a hint
how to tell them apart?

Because someone has made up the word
"wave," do I have to distinguish it
from water?

There is a Secret One inside us;
the planets in all the galaxies
pass through his hands like beads.

That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes.

Kabir

YOU have claimed Islam is a religion of Peace. Yet ever Islamic Country on the face of the earth supports world wide terrorism. They support the murder and imprisonment of Gays. Islam has stated its goal is worldwide total domination of the planet. They have stated that one way to achieve that is with the murder of non Muslims.

YOU have claimed that Islam is a religion of peace. And yet YOU admit you can not live in a Muslim Country because you are gay and not Muslim.

Go ahead explain to us what you mean when you claim Islam is a tolerant religion. Since obviously your meaning is not the accepted meaning of the word. Islam does not tolerate gays, they do not tolerate uppity women, they do not tolerate western life style, they do not tolerate other religions. Exactly what do they tolerate?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Islamic controlled countries have laws on the book allowing them to KILL homosexuals and arrest them. Now be so kind as to list non Muslim nations with those laws.

Islam is our enemy. Until or unless there is a reformation THIS remains true. Islam DEMANDS that the ENTIRE EARTH be Muslim. It allows that in order to bring this about Islam may forcefully convert people, murder unbelievers and subjugate those that it can if that is favorable to the situation.

You are beyond stupid when you post that Islam is peaceful and tolerant. EVERY single Muslim run Country is INTOLERANT and supports worldwide TERROR in order to further the Islamic goals.

Every Muslim supports Islamic teachings that the ENTIRE earth must be Muslim. Some believe an open war is acceptable to accomplish that and some believe they should wait a while longer before conquering the world.

Your religion and your sexual preference are EXACTLY important to this discussion. YOU keep claiming that Islam is tolerant and peaceful. Prove it. Move to an Islamic Country and inform the Government of your sexuality and your religious beliefs. Then tell us just how Tolerant they are.

Stop personalizing this debate. It's not about me, my religion or my sexuality. It's about your fear and loathing of all things Muslim and your willingness to use absolute language like ALL Muslims rather than the truth, which is SOME Muslims are like this and some are not.

How much do you know about the Sufi Muslims? They are peaceful. I've known some personally and hold them in high regard. What about the poets Rumi, Hafiz or Kabir?

I Have Been Thinking

I have been thinking ...
I have been thinking of the difference between water
and the waves on it. Rising,
water's still water, falling back,
it is water, will you give me a hint
how to tell them apart?

Because someone has made up the word
"wave," do I have to distinguish it
from water?

There is a Secret One inside us;
the planets in all the galaxies
pass through his hands like beads.

That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes.

Kabir

YOU have claimed Islam is a religion of Peace. Yet ever Islamic Country on the face of the earth supports world wide terrorism. They support the murder and imprisonment of Gays. Islam has stated its goal is worldwide total domination of the planet. They have stated that one way to achieve that is with the murder of non Muslims.

YOU have claimed that Islam is a religion of peace. And yet YOU admit you can not live in a Muslim Country because you are gay and not Muslim.

Go ahead explain to us what you mean when you claim Islam is a tolerant religion. Since obviously your meaning is not the accepted meaning of the word. Islam does not tolerate gays, they do not tolerate uppity women, they do not tolerate western life style, they do not tolerate other religions. Exactly what do they tolerate?

Show me where I said Islam is a peaceful religion? I have stated that most of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are living peacefully. True statement. I have stated that I have met Sufi Muslims and found them peaceful. True statement. I love the Sufi poets. True statement.

Are there radical extremists in Islam? Absolutely. Are there parts of the world that I as a woman don't feel safe traveling alone? Yes. Is militant Islamic terrorism a real threat? Yes

You and the terrorists are alike in that you both take Islamic teachings out of context. You use those teachings to justify your bigotry, they misuse it to justify violence and oppression.

In the case of Malaysia, they are adopting many western customs. The reality show I cited is a bizarre example of east meets west.

Stop bring my personal life into this. It's irrelevant and off the topic. This thread is not about me. We are debating whether Islam is inherently violent or not.

I take one side and you take the other. Period.

 

[Jaguar]

In debates in the past regarding the ability of Islam to co-exist peacefully along side other religions, Malaysia has been held up as an example of this. With that in mind, I have researched and put together this summary of facts about that country.

Islam is the state sanctioned official religion of Malaysia

Nine of the Malaysian states have constitutional Malay monarchs (most of them styled as Sultans). These Malay rulers still maintain authority over religious affairs in states.

The newest format of the Malaysian Identity Card (MyKad) divides Malaysians into various religious groups, i.e. Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist.

The building of non-Muslim religious structures is strictly controlled by the government. In addition to this, the government also funds the construction of mosques and suraus.

Often the government will disapprove the setting up of Churches outright. In some cases, they have even resorted to demolishing churches in Muslim-majority areas, and setting up mosques in Muslim-minority areas. The Malaysian government has also persecuted Christian groups who were perceived to be attempting to proselytize to Muslim audiences.

In 2004 and 2005, the Government caused an uproar within the Chinese community by closing down and demolishing some ancient Chinese temples in Chinese-majority areas. In as recent as June 2006, the Government has demolished more than 30 Hindu temples in Hindu majority areas.

The construction or setting-up of non-Muslim places of worship are financed privately by the devotees themselves. This is in stark contrast to Muslim places of worship, which are built with public funds. Therefore, tax paying non-Muslims are forced to financially support Islam while being limited from establishing their own places of worship at their own expense.

Local housing bylaws require that the housing developer construct mosques in every new housing area regardless of the racial and religious demographics.

As defined by the constitution of Malaysia, Malays must be Muslim, regardless of their ethnic heritage; otherwise, legally, they are not Malay.

It is legally possible to become a Malay if a non-Malay citizen with a Malaysian parent converts to Islam.

At certain Malaysian institutions such as the International Islamic University, wearing of the tudung is mandatory; however for non-Muslim students this usually amounts to a loosely worn piece of cloth draped over the back of the head.
The tudung , or the hijab, is a symbol of a Muslim woman. This is such because it represents the modesty of a woman's way, as described by the religion.
Some find the tudung to be an indication of Arabic influence in Malay Muslim culture, and point to other incidents such as the banning of the traditional Malay wayang kulit in the state of Kelantan (which is ruled by the Islamist PAS) for being "un-Islamic".
As required by Malaysian law and defined in the Constitution, a Malay would surrender his ethnic status if he were not Muslim.

The nation maintains two parallel justice systems in the country (see: Courts of Malaysia). One is the secular justice system based upon laws gazetted by Parliament. The other is sharia (syaria, Islamic law). Ostensibly syariah courts only have jurisdiction over persons who declare themselves to be Muslims. Consequently, this results in non-Muslims not having legal standing in syariah courts.

The rules of sharia are set by the various sultans of the states. Historically a sultan had absolute authority over the state.

On September 29, 2001, the then Prime Minister, Tun Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad declared that the country was an Islamic state (negara Islam).

Government in general supports Islamic religious establishment and it is the official policy to "infuse Islamic values" into the administration of the country.

For Muslim children, religious education according to a government-approved curriculum is compulsory in public schools.

The state of Selangor passed a legal amendment in 1989 that if an adult converts to Islam, any infant children become converted at the same moment.
Muslims who wish to convert from Islam face severe obstacles. For Muslims, particularly ethnic Malays, the right to leave the Islamic faith and adhere to another religion is a controversial question, and in practice it is very difficult for Muslims to change religions.

In 1999 the High Court ruled that secular courts have no jurisdiction to hear applications by Muslims to change religions. According to the ruling, the religious conversion of Muslims lies solely within the jurisdiction of Islamic courts.

The issue of Muslim apostasy is very sensitive. In 1998 after a controversial incident of attempted conversion, the Government stated that apostates (i.e., Muslims who wish to leave or have left Islam for another religion) would not face government punishment so long as they did not defame Islam after their conversion. However, whether the very act of conversion was an "insult to Islam" was not clarified at the time.

In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a Shari’a law subjecting Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation" (under the Constitution, religion, including Shari’a law, is a state matter). Leaders of the opposition Islamic party, PAS, have stated the penalty for apostasy — after the apostates are given a period of time to repent and they do not repent — is death.

Statistics indicate that Negeri Sembilan has the largest number of converts, with 840 applications made to renounce Islam in 2005, 62 of which succeeded. An academic has suggested that this is because Negeri Sembilan is the only state which permits conversion. A convert must first apply to the Syariah Court for a declaration that he or she is no longer a Muslim; the convert will then be counseled for about a year by a Mufti. If, after this period, the convert still wants to convert, the judge may permit the application. This process is unique to the state; no other state allows Muslims to officially convert. In five states — Perak, Malacca, Sabah, Terengganu, and Pahang — conversion is a criminal offense which can be punished by a fine or jail term. In Pahang, convicted converts may also be punished with up to six strokes of the cane.
Proselytizing of Muslims by members of other religions is prohibited in most states and can lead to lengthy jail sentences and many strokes of the rotan (whipping). Most Christian and a few other religious groups in Malaysia put a standard disclaimer on literature and advertisements stating "For non-Muslims only".

In 2002 the government banned the Bible in Malay (Al-Kitab Mahasuci) and in Iban (Bup Kudus).

Some states have laws that prohibit the use of Malay-language religious terms such as usage of the term "Allah" for God by Christians.

Generally, the Malaysian practice of Islam frowns upon dogs; the rationale being that they are unclean. n 2004, the town council of Subang Jaya made it a pre-condition of dog ownership that anyone applying for a dog license having a Muslim neighbor would be required to seek their "approval" before applying for a license.

The sale of pork and pork products is very restricted in Malaysia. Traders wishing to sell pork in some areas require prior authorization, particularly in predominantly Muslim regions. In practice this causes difficulty for the large Chinese population in Malaysia for whom pork is a part of every-day cuisine. There is constant regulatory pressure upon pig farms which has lead to many being closed down.

In Malaysia, there is an income tax. Money paid to "zakat" or the obligatory alm Muslims must give to the poor reduces the tax to be paid while money paid to other religions under similar circumstances is not given similar treatment:

• it reduces tax only if the particular beneficiary has obtained such status from the government, which is difficult in practice.

• even then, if money is donated to a non-Muslim religion it is only deducted from the income on which the amount of tax is based, while zakat is deducted from the amount of tax itself. For example, suppose a person earning RM 50,000 owes a tax of RM 3,000, and donates RM 1,000 to his religion. If he were non-Muslim he would then adjust his assessed income to RM 49,000. If he were Muslim then he would only have to pay RM 2,000 as the RM 1,000 would be deducted from the amount owed.
Movies which depict people considered prophets in Islam are generally censored or banned as the depiction of prophets is considered "haraam" (not allowed) under Islam.

Clearly, if there is religious tolerance in Malaysia, it is from the other religions, not from Muslims, which shows itself as decidedly intolerant.

Islam is just another flavor of stupid. All religions that make up gods are bunk.

Thank you so much for your intelligent, well researched and insightful comments!! Out of 300,000,000 sperm, you prove why you were the fastest one.

 

[Jaguar]

Link his so-called facts and then look at his rant. I cited a source I trust about Islam in the present.

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

 

[Sky Dancer]

Link his so-called facts and then look at his rant. I cited a source I trust about Islam in the present.

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

I've cited my own sources. Please read them.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Link his so-called facts and then look at his rant. I cited a source I trust about Islam in the present.

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

It's a hate site. Sorry you live there.


I prefer Karen Armstrong's books, .“Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today’s World;” “Mohammed: A Biography of the Prophet;”

For years she was tagged the "runaway nun," the rebellious ex-Catholic with outspoken opinions about religion. Now, with her 12th book, "Islam, a Short History" (Modern Library), Karen Armstrong has changed her image. She can still be sharp-tongued, inclined to draw conclusions that get a rise out of critics. But something closer to reconciliation, rather than anger, is propelling her.

Her life in a British convent is 30 years behind her. She spent seven years in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus during the 1960s and later wrote a tell-all book, "Through the Narrow Gate" (St. Martin's Press, 1982) that bemoaned the restrictive life. (The frightened nuns did not know the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 had ended for several weeks; they were not allowed to inquire about the outside world.) Armstrong is still hearing about the book: "Catholics in England hate me. They've sent me excrement in the mail."

Readers who have followed her lately are learning her more optimistic ideas about what Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common. Three of these books--"A History of God" (Ballantine, 1993), "Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths" (Knopf, 1996) and "The Battle for God" (Knopf, 2000)--show what unites the faiths. Each, Armstrong writes, has developed the image of one Supreme Being who was first revealed to the prophet Abraham. All have historic links to Jerusalem. And more recently, each has built up a rigid conservative strain as a reaction against the modern world.

Last year, the Islamic Center of Southern California honored Armstrong as a bridge builder who promotes understanding among the three faiths. On a book tour last week that included Los Angeles, the Londoner met again with members of the center in a Santa Monica home.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/karenarmstrong.htm

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Your thread title says Islam is peaceful and tolerant. That is a straight up LIE. I imagine in the 30's and 40's I could have found peaceful Nazis too. Does not change WHAT Nazism was nor does a few Muslims willing to wait for the rest of us to die of natural causes change the fact Islam is violent and dangerous.

Islam PREACHES Intolerance. Muslims may not make friends with non Muslims. Muslims may lie to non Muslims, Hatred of all other religions, hatred of Gays, hatred of independent women. The list just goes on and on while dumb fucks like you, the first people they would murder make ignorant statements like Islam is peace and tolerance.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Your thread title says Islam is peaceful and tolerant. That is a straight up LIE. I imagine in the 30's and 40's I could have found peaceful Nazis too. Does not change WHAT Nazism was nor does a few Muslims willing to wait for the rest of us to die of natural causes change the fact Islam is violent and dangerous.

Islam PREACHES Intolerance. Muslims may not make friends with non Muslims. Muslims may lie to non Muslims, Hatred of all other religions, hatred of Gays, hatred of independent women. The list just goes on and on while dumb fucks like you, the first people they would murder make ignorant statements like Islam is peace and tolerance.

First of all, this isn't my thread. I didn't start it, Jaguar did. Saying it's my thread is a flat out lie. Show me where I ever stated that stated that Islam is a peaceful religion? I state that the majority of the world's 1.5 billion Muslim people are living in peace. Thee are a variety of Islamic paths. Sufi's for example. The Sufi's are peaceful, I'm most familiar with the Sufi's . I've known Sufi's. My mentor for my private practice was a Sufi and she is one of the most loving people I have ever known. Muslims are not all terrorists. They don't deserve to be viillified. Just as there are numerous interpretation of the Bible, the same is true for the Qur'an. I disagree that the world's second largest religion is inherently evil and that all it's practitioners are terrorists.

You sir, can't debate. You resort to foul language and name callng. Your debate skills are weak. Your message is hysterical.

This is a religion and ethics forum. My views are informed by my Buddhist practice. Rather than look at Islamic teachings I look to Buddhist teachings for guidance. I am not an Islamic scholar. I have to read other peoples work to understand Islam. I don't understand it.

As a Buddhist, I see what the terrorists are doing from the perspective of karma and the five poisons of the mind, ignorance, desire, anger, jealousy and pride. I say any 'religious' text that espouses violence is 'wrong view'. I submit to you that there may be many different ways of interpreting the Qur'an. Some of the Bible's passages seem violent too.

If you want to talk about how to combat terrorism I'm with you. If you want to see ALL Muslims as demonic, you're on your own.

 

[ekrem]

The only difference between the Talibans both as a share within US and Afghani societies are the styling of clothes.

 

[Sky Dancer]

About Sufism-mystical Islam

"The Sufis are not an ethnic or religious group, but a mystical movement that is found all over the Islamic world and that still has a deep influence on the varied populations of the Middle East.

Sufism grew historically as a reaction against the rigid legalism of the orthodox religious leadership and as a counterweight to the growing worldliness of the expanding Muslim empire.

One source of Sufism is to be found in the twofold presentation of God in the Qur'an: on the one hand he is described as the almighty creator, lord and judge, and on the other hand he is seen as abiding in the believer's heart and nearer to man than his own jugular vein.

Sufism searches for a direct mystical knowledge of God and of his Love. Its goal was to progress beyond mere intellectual knowledge to a mystical (existential) experience that submerged limited man in the infinity of God. It used Jewish, Christian, Gnostic, Hellenistic, Zoroastrian and Hindu traditions that were brought into Islam by converts from the many conquered populations. The name Sufi is derived from the Arabic word Suf which means wool. Early Sufis wore simple coarse woollen garments similar to those of Christian monks.

Sufism believed that the Qur'an and Hadith have secret, esoteric, meaning and symbolism (Batin). In opposition to the literal method of interpretation (Tafsir), Sufism used an allegorical method (Ta'wil) which looked for the hidden meaning and symbols in the holy texts.

Sufism had an important part in the formation of Muslim societies as it educated the masses and met their felt needs, giving spiritual meaning to their lives and channeling their emotions. Sufis were also great missionaries who converted new regions to Islam.

Its cultural contribution was a rich poetry in Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Sindi, Pashto and Punjabi, which spread its mystical ideas all over the Muslim world and enriched local literature and identity.

Several techniques were developed to achieve the goal of a blissful union with Ultimate Reality. They were known as Dhikr (remembrance, mention of God) and Sama' (hearing). In the Dhikr Sufis would recite the many names of God and sing hymns of praise. Special forms of breathing were supposed to aid concentration and help them attain to an ecstatic state in which they actually felt they had reached union with God. During the Sama', poetry, music and dance were used as an aid to reaching the ecstatic state.

These informal groups later crystalized into Sufi brotherhoods gathered around famous leaders. In some countries even today most Muslims belong to one order or another. Around the Muslim world there are hundreds of orders and they are an important religious and political force.

Sufism is found amongst both Sunnis and Shi'a, being a movement within orthodox Islam. However it has many links with Isma'ilism and other extreme Shi'a sects (Ghulat) as it developed in similar times and circumstances.

Sufism developed in the 8th and 9th centuries in three major centres: 1. The cities of Basra, Kufa and Baghdad in Iraq. 2. The city of Balkh in the Khorasan district of Persia. 3. Egypt.

Muhammad is regarded as the first Sufi master who passed his esoteric teachings orally to his successors who also received his special grace (barakah). An unbroken chain of transmission of divine authority is supposed to exist from Muhammad to his successor 'Ali and from him down to generations of Sufi masters (Sheikhs, Pirs). Each order has its own Silsilah (chain) that links it with Muhammad and 'Ali.
SUFISM: THE MYSTICISM OF ISLAM

 

[Sky Dancer]

Jesus commands us in Matthew 5:9-11: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called
sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the
kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all
kinds of evil against you because of me.” In Luke 10:5, Jesus commands us: „When you enter a
house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’” And Jesus’ brother, James, rightly echoes his brother’s
words when he says: “Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.” (James
3:18).

Similarly, Jesus’ apostle, Paul, writes in Romans 12:17-18: “Do not repay anyone evil for evil.
Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on
you, live at peace with everyone.” In 1 Timothy 2:1-2 Paul extends this command to the
political world: “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be
made for everyone, for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet
lives in all godliness and holiness.”

Are Christians called to be peacemakers or not?

 

[Jaguar]

Link his so-called facts and then look at his rant. I cited a source I trust about Islam in the present.

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

It's a hate site. Sorry you live there.


I prefer Karen Armstrong's books, .“Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today’s World;” “Mohammed: A Biography of the Prophet;”

For years she was tagged the "runaway nun," the rebellious ex-Catholic with outspoken opinions about religion. Now, with her 12th book, "Islam, a Short History" (Modern Library), Karen Armstrong has changed her image. She can still be sharp-tongued, inclined to draw conclusions that get a rise out of critics. But something closer to reconciliation, rather than anger, is propelling her.

Her life in a British convent is 30 years behind her. She spent seven years in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus during the 1960s and later wrote a tell-all book, "Through the Narrow Gate" (St. Martin's Press, 1982) that bemoaned the restrictive life. (The frightened nuns did not know the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 had ended for several weeks; they were not allowed to inquire about the outside world.) Armstrong is still hearing about the book: "Catholics in England hate me. They've sent me excrement in the mail."

Readers who have followed her lately are learning her more optimistic ideas about what Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common. Three of these books--"A History of God" (Ballantine, 1993), "Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths" (Knopf, 1996) and "The Battle for God" (Knopf, 2000)--show what unites the faiths. Each, Armstrong writes, has developed the image of one Supreme Being who was first revealed to the prophet Abraham. All have historic links to Jerusalem. And more recently, each has built up a rigid conservative strain as a reaction against the modern world.

Last year, the Islamic Center of Southern California honored Armstrong as a bridge builder who promotes understanding among the three faiths. On a book tour last week that included Los Angeles, the Londoner met again with members of the center in a Santa Monica home.
Profile of Karen Armstrong

Of course it's a hate site....it uses reports from world newspapers!!!! The truth about Islam is regarded as hate BY MUSLIMS.

And as far as the Crusades goes....keep your revisionist history to yourself. The Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression, NOT the cause of it. Muhammad was an epileptic paedophile murderer who created a POLITICAL system based on misogyny, deceit and murder.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

It's a hate site. Sorry you live there.


I prefer Karen Armstrong's books, .“Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today’s World;” “Mohammed: A Biography of the Prophet;”

For years she was tagged the "runaway nun," the rebellious ex-Catholic with outspoken opinions about religion. Now, with her 12th book, "Islam, a Short History" (Modern Library), Karen Armstrong has changed her image. She can still be sharp-tongued, inclined to draw conclusions that get a rise out of critics. But something closer to reconciliation, rather than anger, is propelling her.

Her life in a British convent is 30 years behind her. She spent seven years in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus during the 1960s and later wrote a tell-all book, "Through the Narrow Gate" (St. Martin's Press, 1982) that bemoaned the restrictive life. (The frightened nuns did not know the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 had ended for several weeks; they were not allowed to inquire about the outside world.) Armstrong is still hearing about the book: "Catholics in England hate me. They've sent me excrement in the mail."

Readers who have followed her lately are learning her more optimistic ideas about what Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common. Three of these books--"A History of God" (Ballantine, 1993), "Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths" (Knopf, 1996) and "The Battle for God" (Knopf, 2000)--show what unites the faiths. Each, Armstrong writes, has developed the image of one Supreme Being who was first revealed to the prophet Abraham. All have historic links to Jerusalem. And more recently, each has built up a rigid conservative strain as a reaction against the modern world.

Last year, the Islamic Center of Southern California honored Armstrong as a bridge builder who promotes understanding among the three faiths. On a book tour last week that included Los Angeles, the Londoner met again with members of the center in a Santa Monica home.
Profile of Karen Armstrong

Of course it's a hate site....it uses reports from world newspapers!!!! The truth about Islam is regarded as hate BY MUSLIMS.

And as far as the Crusades goes....keep your revisionist history to yourself. The Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression, NOT the cause of it. Muhammad was an epileptic paedophile murderer who created a POLITICAL system based on misogyny, deceit and murder.

Look what it does to your mind. Stop immersing yourself in violence.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It is not my job at this point to prove anything. I have stated facts. If you believe my facts to be in error, the onus is on YOU to cite a reference proving it. See, this is how debate works. I state something and you dispute it using sources.

As far as trusted sources, here is one I find very illuminating.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

It's a hate site. Sorry you live there.


I prefer Karen Armstrong's books, .“Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today’s World;” “Mohammed: A Biography of the Prophet;”

For years she was tagged the "runaway nun," the rebellious ex-Catholic with outspoken opinions about religion. Now, with her 12th book, "Islam, a Short History" (Modern Library), Karen Armstrong has changed her image. She can still be sharp-tongued, inclined to draw conclusions that get a rise out of critics. But something closer to reconciliation, rather than anger, is propelling her.

Her life in a British convent is 30 years behind her. She spent seven years in the Society of the Holy Child Jesus during the 1960s and later wrote a tell-all book, "Through the Narrow Gate" (St. Martin's Press, 1982) that bemoaned the restrictive life. (The frightened nuns did not know the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 had ended for several weeks; they were not allowed to inquire about the outside world.) Armstrong is still hearing about the book: "Catholics in England hate me. They've sent me excrement in the mail."

Readers who have followed her lately are learning her more optimistic ideas about what Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common. Three of these books--"A History of God" (Ballantine, 1993), "Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths" (Knopf, 1996) and "The Battle for God" (Knopf, 2000)--show what unites the faiths. Each, Armstrong writes, has developed the image of one Supreme Being who was first revealed to the prophet Abraham. All have historic links to Jerusalem. And more recently, each has built up a rigid conservative strain as a reaction against the modern world.

Last year, the Islamic Center of Southern California honored Armstrong as a bridge builder who promotes understanding among the three faiths. On a book tour last week that included Los Angeles, the Londoner met again with members of the center in a Santa Monica home.
Profile of Karen Armstrong

Of course it's a hate site....it uses reports from world newspapers!!!! The truth about Islam is regarded as hate BY MUSLIMS.

And as far as the Crusades goes....keep your revisionist history to yourself. The Crusades were a response to Islamic aggression, NOT the cause of it. Muhammad was an epileptic paedophile murderer who created a POLITICAL system based on misogyny, deceit and murder.

You're still fighting the Crusades.

 

[FA_Q2]

It just goes to show that theocracy may lead to peace but has its limitations. Let's not create one in America.

Here's an article by a writer I respect:

It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.

Karen Armstrong has written many books on religion, including Islam: A Short History, published last year by Modern Library

Yes because lone acts of insane Christians are like to MASSIVE organized and well funded Islamic terrorist cells. There is absolutely NO accepting Islam until the continual lame comparisons are stopped and the TRUTH confronted.

Read more: The True, Peaceful Face Of Islam - TIME

Yes because lone acts of insane Christians are like to MASSIVE organized and well funded Islamic terrorist cells. There is absolutely NO accepting Islam until the continual lame comparisons are stopped and the TRUTH confronted.

 

[FA_Q2]

Islamic controlled countries have laws on the book allowing them to KILL homosexuals and arrest them. Now be so kind as to list non Muslim nations with those laws.

Islam is our enemy. Until or unless there is a reformation THIS remains true. Islam DEMANDS that the ENTIRE EARTH be Muslim. It allows that in order to bring this about Islam may forcefully convert people, murder unbelievers and subjugate those that it can if that is favorable to the situation.

You are beyond stupid when you post that Islam is peaceful and tolerant. EVERY single Muslim run Country is INTOLERANT and supports worldwide TERROR in order to further the Islamic goals.

Every Muslim supports Islamic teachings that the ENTIRE earth must be Muslim. Some believe an open war is acceptable to accomplish that and some believe they should wait a while longer before conquering the world.

Your religion and your sexual preference are EXACTLY important to this discussion. YOU keep claiming that Islam is tolerant and peaceful. Prove it. Move to an Islamic Country and inform the Government of your sexuality and your religious beliefs. Then tell us just how Tolerant they are.

Stop personalizing this debate. It's not about me, my religion or my sexuality. It's about your fear and loathing of all things Muslim and your willingness to use absolute language like ALL Muslims rather than the truth, which is SOME Muslims are like this and some are not.

How much do you know about the Sufi Muslims? They are peaceful. I've known some personally and hold them in high regard. What about the poets Rumi, Hafiz or Kabir?

I Have Been Thinking

I have been thinking ...
I have been thinking of the difference between water
and the waves on it. Rising,
water's still water, falling back,
it is water, will you give me a hint
how to tell them apart?

Because someone has made up the word
"wave," do I have to distinguish it
from water?

There is a Secret One inside us;
the planets in all the galaxies
pass through his hands like beads.

That is a string of beads one should look at with luminous eyes.

Kabir

YOU have claimed Islam is a religion of Peace. Yet ever Islamic Country on the face of the earth supports world wide terrorism. They support the murder and imprisonment of Gays. Islam has stated its goal is worldwide total domination of the planet. They have stated that one way to achieve that is with the murder of non Muslims.

YOU have claimed that Islam is a religion of peace. And yet YOU admit you can not live in a Muslim Country because you are gay and not Muslim.

Go ahead explain to us what you mean when you claim Islam is a tolerant religion. Since obviously your meaning is not the accepted meaning of the word. Islam does not tolerate gays, they do not tolerate uppity women, they do not tolerate western life style, they do not tolerate other religions. Exactly what do they tolerate?

Honestly, you and the OP are pointing to a theocracy as evidence that Islam is intolerant. I will give you that it is but theocracies are not proving anything. Simply put, there is no such thing as a tolerant theocracy as it is in its very nature intolerant. It matters not weather it is Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or Islamic. If it is a theocracy it WILL be intolerant.


That said, Islam has a rather large contingent of terrorists within its religion. There is a much larger percentage of terrorists that are Islamic than any other major religion and that is an issue. That is where the problems are occurring and a major portion of that can be drawn back to the fact that many largely Islamic states are theocracies. Islam must deal with this problem if it is to be capable of coexisting with other religions.




Do you deny the problem of terrorism and its connection to Islam?