Is the economic Pie FIXED in size..Democrats believe so...

[NYcarbineer]

So you think I made up these GDP numbers?

You know the really disgusting aspect about comments like yours is you do provide ANY sources or documentation!
NO wonder people consider comments like yours as being so unworthy of attention!

I've proved to you that the PIE is not finite.
That you don't have to be an animal like you to tear and claw for your share!
Because of the rich and their taxes.. cause you obviously have never paid any..
We have the internet.. remember TAX payers NOT Govt. Research as Obama said funded the Govt. TAXES!
We have our educational system ALL paid for NOT by Govt. BY taxes! Paid By TaX payers not by you!

So when idiots like you spout the "failed" trickle down theory all I ask is then where did the $15 trillion in todays GDP go?

Now here is an even BIGGER question for you finite pie asses:
What has happened to the $298.9 Trillion since 1790?

Well for one thing the total value of Americans is
AGAIN FACTS to support MY statements.. WHERE ARE YOURS??

Q4 2011
B.100 Balance Sheet of Households and Nonprofit Organizations
Assets $73,518.3
Liabilities $13,481.0
Net worth $60,037.3

B.102 Balance Sheet of Nonfinancial Corporate Business

Assets $30,044.8
Liabilities $13,886.9
Net worth $16,157.9

B.103 Balance Sheet of Nonfinancial Noncorporate Business

Assets $12,995.1
Liabilities $5,561.5
Net worth $7,433.6


Totals Assets/Liabilities Net worth of households,corporate & noncorporate businesses
Assets $116,558.2
Liabilities $32,929.4
Net worth $83,628.8


http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/z1r-5.pdf[/URL

Now for you idiots.. Assets are what is OWNED Liabilities is what is OWED
NET Worth is after subtracting what is OWED from what is OWNED..
The entire NET worth of households/businesses is $83.628 TRILLION!!!

NOW explain again why "Trickle down doesn't work?"
GDP in 2011 $15.09 trillion... Americans NET worth is $83.6 Trillion!

Tell me again WHERE trickle down doesn't work????

Nobody here knows what you're talking about. That means nobody, including you.

So let me make it simpler for idiots like YOU!
If over several years you are paid money for work (as unlikely as that might be)..
and you are just a little savvy you buy a house.
You make payments and overtime the house is paid off.
Remember OVER TIME!!!

Well since basically 1790 most people have worked.
Most people have accumulated houses, businesses, property ASSETS!!!
Most people may have had debt or .. LIABILITIES
When the federal government tracks Assets and liabilities and subtract the liabilities.
IT means there are $83 trillion left over!
Do you understand that???
HOW did these people get $83 trillion in net worth ???
DUH! I am so tired of dumb f..ks like you who can't even subtract!

So tell me again IF THERE WASN"T a growing pie and trickle down how did these people get $83 trillion in net worth??

GEEZ I can't believe how f...king dumb you are!

You don't have a point. That's the problem. GDP can be growing at 10% a year but if the top 10% are getting 90% of the growth to themselves that's not much help to those at the bottom.

 

[healthmyths]

"It's this belief that the economy is some fixed pie," said Ryan.
"That there's only so much money in America, it's fixed and that the job of the government is to redistribute the slices of the pie.
That's not true.

The job of government is to set the conditions for economic growth so we can grow the pie and everybody can get a bigger slice of the American pie."

Paul Ryan resurrects Obama¿s greatest hits (the Republican version) - Los Angeles Times


But is that TRUE? Let's look at the history of the USA and the gross domestic product. GDP as just ONE illustration of the "FIXED PIE FALLACY".
First the source of these FACTS.. Measuring Worth - Measures of worth, inflation rates, saving calculator, relative value, worth of a dollar, worth of a pound, purchasing power, gold prices, GDP, history of wages, average wage

Consider what the gross domestic product for this illustration the "PIE" of the USA was in 1790 $187 million.
The GDP (or PIE) in 2011 $15.94 TRILLION.

The PIE grew over 221 years by $15.093 TRILLION - an increase of 80,715% over 221 years!


So the next point of comparison is what does this relate to per person/ (capita)?

In 1790 there were 3.929 million people. The GDP per person was $1,024 (in 2005 dollars - inflation)

In 2011 there were 312.041 million people. The GDP per person was $42,671 (adjusted for inflation 2005 dollars)

This increase from 1790 to 2011 in per person GDP was over 221 years of 87,473% (adjusted for inflation).

So IF the PIE is FIXED and ONLY the government can re-distribute... HOW do we explain the growth of the PIE???

OK so you anti-growth, anti-capitalists say "YEA but all that is owned by as our current Prez says.."millionaires and billionaires"!!!

How many millionaires in 1790 in the USA? Don't know but in 1892 there were 4,047 Millionaires.
GDP in 1892 was $16.352 billion and per person adjusted for inflation was $5,147.
Again 2011 GDP $15,940 billion and per person $42,671.

Most people who become millionaires have confidence in their own abilities. They do not spend time worrying about whether or not their parents were wealthy. They do not believe that one must be born wealthy. Conversely, people of modest backgrounds who believe that only the wealthy produce millionaires are predetermined to remain non-affluent. Have you always thought that most millionaires are born with silver spoons in their mouths? If so, consider the following facts that our research uncovered about American millionaires:

* Only 19 percent receive any income or wealth of any kind from a trust fund or an estate.

* Fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent or more of their wealth.

* More than half never received as much as $1 in inheritance.

* Fewer than 25 percent ever received "an act of kindness" of $10,000 or more from their parents, grandparents, or other relatives.

* Ninety-one percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 of the ownership of a family business.

* Nearly half never received any college tuition from their parents or other relatives.

* Fewer than 10 percent believe they will ever receive an inheritance in the future.

America continues to hold great prospects for those who wish to accumulate wealth in one generation. In fact, America has always been a land of opportunity for those who believe in the fluid nature of our nation's social system and economy.

More than one hundred years ago the same was true. In The American Economy, Stanley Lebergott reviews a study conducted in 1892 of the 4,047 American millionaires. He reports that 84 percent "were nouveau riche, having reached the top without the benefit of inherited wealth."
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html

In 2010 the U.S. had 3,100,000 millionaires in 2010
In 1892 total millionaires - 4,047
Growth of 3,098,108 millionaires or an increase over the 118 years from 1892 of 648%.

So regardless.. the GDP as a "PIE" doesn't look fixed from the perspective of the individual person.
Granted there are fewer agrarians (farmers- today ) then in 1790 so self sufficiency is not the case.
But when liberals/progressives/anti-capitalists talked about the "FIXED PIE".... there is NOT one at least compared to the GDP!

I do miss the "Good Old Days" when people knew the meaning of "work".

Right and those people WORKED so stupid shi..ts like you can do this!!!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

But the pie's been growing since 6 months after Obama took office. You can't exactly hold Obama responsible for Bush killing the pie makers.

<I fear we are over stretching the crust of this analogy!>

You're right, 43 months into his term, I don't hold Obama responsible for much of anything.

But 6 months into his term, an economy that was losing 9% of it's pies circumference began increasing it's circumference. Do you hold him responsible for the change from -9% when he took office to growth six months later?

That is awesome!
I wonder which survey we should look at to see he created more jobs than Reagan?

 

[NYcarbineer]

The American middle class is shrinking. Dramatically.

Is that a good thing? No? Yes?

Is the American middle class shrinking because the Rich are overtaxed? No? Yes?

 

[healthmyths]

and do this.


.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The slice of everyone else's pie at a fixed point in time must shrink if your slice grows.

How does my slice grow at a fixed point in time?

By that point in time being the time when your pie grows. A tax cut, for instance, would increase your piece at that point in time.

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

 

[healthmyths]

So Yea you were right our parents/grandparents SUFFERED greatly to allow dumb.f...ks like you to use the computer, stalk girls with your cell phone, texting thousands of times.. tweeting idiocies.. and then letting putzs like think you can party hearty with people that are working hard to get a better life!

But suckheads like you probably have your mom do your laundry fix your meals and you play some type of stupid 6th grader games!

 

[8537]

You're right, 43 months into his term, I don't hold Obama responsible for much of anything.

But 6 months into his term, an economy that was losing 9% of it's pies circumference began increasing it's circumference. Do you hold him responsible for the change from -9% when he took office to growth six months later?

That is awesome!
I wonder which survey we should look at to see he created more jobs than Reagan?

Who made that claim? And who in the fuck ever claimed that presidents create jobs?

But if you wanted to look at job creation numbers, you would look at the establishment survey. Only an uneducated hack would look at the household survey.

 

[8537]

How does my slice grow at a fixed point in time?

By that point in time being the time when your pie grows. A tax cut, for instance, would increase your piece at that point in time.

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I think Ryan, and some you people here who think he's so smart, needs to be reminded of the basic concept in economics...

...scarcity.

btw

The pie at any given point in time is always finite, always of a fixed amount.

 

[healthmyths]

Nobody here knows what you're talking about. That means nobody, including you.

So let me make it simpler for idiots like YOU!
If over several years you are paid money for work (as unlikely as that might be)..
and you are just a little savvy you buy a house.
You make payments and overtime the house is paid off.
Remember OVER TIME!!!

Well since basically 1790 most people have worked.
Most people have accumulated houses, businesses, property ASSETS!!!
Most people may have had debt or .. LIABILITIES
When the federal government tracks Assets and liabilities and subtract the liabilities.
IT means there are $83 trillion left over!
Do you understand that???
HOW did these people get $83 trillion in net worth ???
DUH! I am so tired of dumb f..ks like you who can't even subtract!

So tell me again IF THERE WASN"T a growing pie and trickle down how did these people get $83 trillion in net worth??

GEEZ I can't believe how f...king dumb you are!

You don't have a point. That's the problem. GDP can be growing at 10% a year but if the top 10% are getting 90% of the growth to themselves that's not much help to those at the bottom.

IF IF IF!!!!
Give me facts because the FACTS are the PIE GROWS! That is a FACT!
FACT is people's NET WORTH GROWS!
Do you understand NET WORTH idiot!
When you subtract all that people /companies OWE from what they OWN that's
NET WORTH!!!!
How in the h... did these people get an $83 TRILLION net worth!

 

[8537]

I think Ryan, and some you people here who think he's so smart, needs to be reminded of the basic concept in economics...

...scarcity.

btw

The pie at any given point in time is always finite, always of a fixed amount.

It's also worth noting that the ultimate potential size of the pie is also constrained and therefore finite if we continue to rely on growth in energy inputs as a driver of outputs.

 

[8537]

So let me make it simpler for idiots like YOU!
If over several years you are paid money for work (as unlikely as that might be)..
and you are just a little savvy you buy a house.
You make payments and overtime the house is paid off.
Remember OVER TIME!!!

Well since basically 1790 most people have worked.
Most people have accumulated houses, businesses, property ASSETS!!!
Most people may have had debt or .. LIABILITIES
When the federal government tracks Assets and liabilities and subtract the liabilities.
IT means there are $83 trillion left over!
Do you understand that???
HOW did these people get $83 trillion in net worth ???
DUH! I am so tired of dumb f..ks like you who can't even subtract!

So tell me again IF THERE WASN"T a growing pie and trickle down how did these people get $83 trillion in net worth??

GEEZ I can't believe how f...king dumb you are!

You don't have a point. That's the problem. GDP can be growing at 10% a year but if the top 10% are getting 90% of the growth to themselves that's not much help to those at the bottom.

IF IF IF!!!!
Give me facts because the FACTS are the PIE GROWS! That is a FACT!
FACT is people's NET WORTH GROWS!
Do you understand NET WORTH idiot!
When you subtract all that people /companies OWE from what they OWN that's
NET WORTH!!!!
How in the h... did these people get an $83 TRILLION net worth!

Who is claiming the pie is fixed?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

By that point in time being the time when your pie grows. A tax cut, for instance, would increase your piece at that point in time.

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

How does the transfer of more of my own money into my wallet cause your slice to shrink?

 

[healthmyths]

The American middle class is shrinking. Dramatically.

Is that a good thing? No? Yes?

Is the American middle class shrinking because the Rich are overtaxed? No? Yes?

GIVE ME FACTS about that! Anyone can make the claim I provided FACTS where are yours?

Here let me help you!


For a two parent, four person household, the average income is between $51,000 to $123,000. The median is $81,000.

Average home is worth $231,000 with $17,600 in payments a year. That comes out to $1466.67 a month in housing costs.

The average home is around 2,300 square feet.
On cars, the typical family spends $12,400 a year on two cars.
That median income family puts away around $2,600 per year for retirement.
$14,200 a year on clothes, food, utilities, entertainment, and other living expenses.
18% of income goes towards some form of debt – auto loans, mortgage, credit cards, etc.

» What is the Average Middle Class?


There are roughly 151 million workers in America. Of that number, about 1/2 are considered "middle class" (75,000,000ish).
that number, 16 million of them belong to a labor union. So, 80% of middle class people are non-union, while the other 20% are union. I

How many Americans are in the middle class

 

[8537]

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

How does the transfer of more of my own money into my wallet cause your slice to shrink?

Wait what? I didn't say that.

As mentioned earlier, please respond to what I wrote instead of what you wish I wrote. If you need an explanation I'm happy to provide it.

 

[Erand7899]

it matters not whether wealth is finite. It could be infinite, but if only certain people have access to it....it's still fucked up.
Let's set aside the what? 5% of the population that "lives off of tax dollars for doing nothing"....let's talk about people who work and work very hard to survive. Loyal, employees who bust their balls every goddamned day to help someone else to become wealthy. Market or not, those people deserve better than what they do.

There's no reason why a man or woman who works their asses of should not be able to live a decent.life in this country. But as long as the false "profits"....yes,I speller it wrong on purpose....of worshiping the rich continues....more and more of those hard working Americans will slipped further and further towards poverty.

Seems to me that this is the GOP's vision of the American Dream.....a dream for the rich, a fucking nightmare for every one else.

You must really love your job. Digging ditches and flipping burgers does not add much to anyone's balance sheet, and no one is going to get rich, or even earn a decent living doing such work, regardless of whether they work their asses off, or not. As I have said, many times over, labor is a product, and is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay to get it. Unskilled labor is like water, everyone needs some, but no one wants to pay much to get it. Why, you ask? Because there exists more unskilled labor than there is demand for that labor. The market is overstocked. Consequently, it sells at a substantial discount.

Those who equip themselves with skills and knowledge are worth more to an employer, and therefore, earn higher wages and salaries.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How does my slice grow at a fixed point in time?

By that point in time being the time when your pie grows. A tax cut, for instance, would increase your piece at that point in time.

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

Toddsterpatriot: How does the transfer of more of my own money into my wallet cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Wait what? I didn't say that.

Yes you did, right here....

The slice of everyone else's pie at a fixed point in time must shrink if your slice grows.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...-size-democrats-believe-so-4.html#post5874245

 

[8537]

By that point in time being the time when your pie grows. A tax cut, for instance, would increase your piece at that point in time.

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

Toddsterpatriot: How does the transfer of more of my own money into my wallet cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Wait what? I didn't say that.

Yes you did, right here....

The slice of everyone else's pie at a fixed point in time must shrink if your slice grows.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...-size-democrats-believe-so-4.html#post5874245

I can't begin to imagine the confusion that led you to such a conclusion. A transfer payment does not change the size of the pie, only how big the pieces are.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's awesome! How does that cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Because at a fixed point in time, barring debt, a tax cut is the equivalent of a transfer payment.

This isn't left wing economics. It's an accounting identity.

Toddsterpatriot: How does the transfer of more of my own money into my wallet cause your slice to shrink?

8537: Wait what? I didn't say that.

Yes you did, right here....

The slice of everyone else's pie at a fixed point in time must shrink if your slice grows.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...-size-democrats-believe-so-4.html#post5874245

I can't begin to imagine the confusion that led you to such a conclusion. A transfer payment does not change the size of the pie, only how big the pieces are.

I can't begin to imagine the confusion that led you to such a conclusion.

You can't imagine how your confusion led me to such a conclusion? LOL!