Is carnivorism ethical?

[buttercup]

If you want to use mythology as proof of your argument, then I will use it too.

The story of Cain & Abel. Cain was a farmer. Abel raised livestock. But God favored the sacrifice of Abel over that of Cain.

It also shows we were keeping livestock from the beginning.

Nowhere in the text does it say that Abel gave God a dead lamb. You are reading into it, you're looking at it through your modern-day carnist lens. There are a number of reasons why your interpretation does not work, and there is evidence that points to Abel offering a live lamb with milk.


Jewish historian Josephus (and others) said that Abel offered milk:

They had resolved to sacrifice to God. Now Cain brought the fruits of the earth, and of his husbandry; but Abel brought milk, and the first-fruits of his flocks: but God was more delighted with the latter oblation,
http://www.interhack.net/projects/library/antiquities-jews/b1c2.html

There's even some memory of the tradition that Abel offered milk in the mideaval Golden Legend of Jacobus de Voragine.

The Hebrew of the Old Testament was originally without vowels. The vowel marks were added at a later time. The particular word render "fat" in the account of Cain and Abel (there are a number of different Hebrew words that mean "fat") is spelled the same as the word for milk and curds. Only the vowels are different. The present Hebrew vowel system didn't come into use until about the ninth or tenth century AD. In fact, it seems likely that when Genesis was written that there was no difference between khay'-leb and kheh'-leb (both of which are spelled cheth - lamed - beth). Both clearly evolved from the same word, and Genesis being one of the oldest Hebrew works, it may be that there was no difference in pronunciation at that time.

(from all-creatures.org)​

 

[BlackSand]

There, the main problem is overclocking, then a person can plan. They could use high rocks and accelerate on horseback. There is absolutely nothing impossible here. People are doing it now. They can fly

.

That isn't flying ... That's gliding silly, a squirrel can do that.
Man, you don't know nothing.

And don't go wasting your time trying everything out.
I grabbed a patio umbrella and jumped off the roof one time.
That Marry Poppins was damn lair, and that crap didn't work worth a shit.

If I hadn't tucked and rolled just right, it could have been ugly.

.​

 

[rupol2000]

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That isn't flying ... That's gliding silly.
Man, you don't know nothing.

And don't go wasting your time trying everything out.
I grabbed a patio umbrella and jumped off the roof one time.
That Marry Poppins was damn lair, and that crap didn't work worth a shit.

If I hadn't tucked and rolled just right, it could have been ugly.

.​

Who told you that angels flew like sparrows?

 

[BlackSand]

Who told you that angels flew like sparrows?

.

Who the hell would want to fly like a sparrow?
They are hard enough to clean out of the grill of my truck.

All Superman needs is a cape, and I might actually try to miss him.

.​

 

[buttercup]

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Damn ... This is so much better than a corndog.

View attachment 592343
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Vegans don't eat grass. In addition to the abundance of food we were designed to eat, there are also tons of vegan alternatives that are amazing. No need to eat dead bodies in this day and age.

And to answer the question of the thread again, yes, I believe it's unethical. Unless one is starving to death and has no other options, which isn't the case for the majority of the world and certainly isn't the case for Americans.

 

[BlackSand]

Vegans don't eat grass. In addition to the abundance of food we were designed to eat, there are also tons of vegan alternatives that are amazing. No need to eat dead bodies in this day and age.

And to answer the question of the thread again, yes, I believe it's unethical. Unless one is starving to death and has no other options, which isn't the case for the majority of the world and certainly isn't the case for Americans.

.

Well, I am willing to accept that your Ethics are guided more by hunger pains than principles.
I never really took you for being that bright anyway.

You ought to save yourself the trouble and grab some chips and salsa before chowing down on some nice fajitas.
(If you cannot tell I am messing with you ... Feel free to eat whatever you want)

.​

 

[buttercup]

I do not think humans can even survive in a healthy way on just a vegan diet.
To get enough B vitamins you would have to consume large quantities of brewers yeast, which actually is not vegan really.

Absolutely false.

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.


The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

 

[rupol2000]

.

Well, I am willing to accept that your Ethics are guided more by hunger pains than principles.
I never really took you for being that bright anyway.

You ought to save yourself the trouble and grab some chips and salsa before chowing down on some nice fajitas.
(If you cannot tell I am messing with you ... Feel free to eat whatever you want)

.​

In itself, focusing on the taste of food suggests that a person is pathetic and poor in spirit. The noble will not care about this.

It's like nymphomania or alcoholism. When a person does not live with full-fledged emotions, he seeks consolation in base pleasures.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Absolutely false.

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.


The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

Ya Like the poor and uneducated can properly plan and pay for a vegan diet.

 

[buttercup]

.

Well, I am willing to accept that your Ethics are guided more by hunger pains than principles.
I never really took you for being that bright anyway.

You ought to save yourself the trouble and grab some chips and salsa before chowing down on some nice fajitas.

.​

Projecting again, I see. I'm not guided by my belly, that is the whole reason I'm vegan, because I'm guided by the principles of non-aggression (if you're a libertarian you should understand that), love and mercy for animals, and the Golden Rule... which in my view shouldn't be applied only to humans. In the same way you wouldn't abuse or torture a dog who was doing you no harm, I apply that same mindset to all animals.

 

[BlackSand]

Absolutely false.

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.


The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

.

The Aborigines People, and oldest continual tribe of people on the Earth ...
Hunted, fished, gathered, vegetables, nuts and berries for well-balanced diet.

.​

 

[rupol2000]

.

The Aborigines People, and oldest continual tribe of peoples on the Earth ...
Hunted, fished, gathered, vegetables, nuts and berries for well-balanced diet.

.​

Yes, the Yakut fisherman was in India the next day to eat a nut to balance nutrition

 

[BlackSand]

In itself, focusing on the taste of food suggests that a person is pathetic and poor in spirit. The noble will not care about this.

It's like nymphomania or alcoholism. When a person does not live with full-fledged emotions, he seeks consolation in base pleasures.

.

When a person thinks their emotions are the key to their existence ...
They usually end up a bitter, pretentious pile of goo.

.​

 

[BlackSand]

Yes, the Yakut fisherman was in India the next day to eat a nut to balance nutrition

.

The Feguson's off Highway 5 can cook a mean beef enchilada ...
Quite filling and goes well with Dos Equis.

.​

 

[rupol2000]

.

When a person thinks their emotions are the key to their existence ...
They usually end up a bitter, pretentious pile of goo.

.​

I don’t understand what you are talking about, but folk wisdom says: someone should fly, and someone should crawl near a pig’s trough.

 

[buttercup]

They should watch the documentary The Game Changers.

Even someone I know who is a big meat-eater said it was a really good documentary.

 

[BlackSand]

I don’t understand what you are talking about, but folk wisdom says: someone should fly, and someone should crawl near a pig’s trough.

.

Some people think it is wise not step on cracks in the sidewalk.

.​

 

[westwall]

Vegans don't eat grass. In addition to the abundance of food we were designed to eat, there are also tons of vegan alternatives that are amazing. No need to eat dead bodies in this day and age.

And to answer the question of the thread again, yes, I believe it's unethical. Unless one is starving to death and has no other options, which isn't the case for the majority of the world and certainly isn't the case for Americans.

If you need to come up with a synthetic replacement you are not doing it right

 

[Clyde 154]

These are fantasies. The nutrition of people depended on their habitat, and carbohydrate food was not available to everyone.
And not everyone digests carbohydrates easily, otherwise there would be no diabetes.

If a person digests carbohydrates well, he has an anabolic advantage. Many athletes use exogenous insulin in the hope of doing so.

Yeah..........fruits and berries etc., were "never" available. There are no natural apple trees, pear trees, black berries. To bad for all the animals and people that did not get to eat these nonexistent foods. And of course animals and people never had access to the many leafy plants and vegies that grow naturally such as grass, .....oh hell, here is a list of such natural plant sources.........knock yourself out............

50 Edible Wild Plants You Can Forage for a Free Meal

Edible wild plants are everywhere around us, just waiting to be plucked and eaten. The key is knowing what to look for and what to avoid.

morningchores.com

Some logic there sport. Diabetes? LAMO Diabetes does not exist because the body cannot process carbs correctly it exists BECAUSE........ (of GLUTTONY) the most common type of diabetes (type 2 onset) comes when people over indulge on food, both carbs and fats/protein, mostly carbs that contain natural SUAGRS over long periods of time thus making one's body insulin resistant requiring the body to produce more and more insulin to the point that one's "pancreas" is damaged beyond the capacity to regulate both insulin and the enzymes that help the body with the digestive processes.....the "Amyloytic" that is responsible for breaking down carbs into a ready energy source such a glucose, the "Lipoylitc" that helps digest and convert fat into energy.......

As was pointed out........when one trains his/her body to eat a certain way, such as using a high carb diet which is easily converted into energy by the body, what happens to the other sources of food (fats and proteins) that are not being used regularly? The body stores that FAT........causing a great deal of harm in one's later years of life. The more fat you include in your diet (because body has been trained to fuel itself primarily on sugars/glucose).....the more fat that is stored. What? You think it magically disappears? Eventually there comes a point in your life when you wake up one morning (or don't in severe cases) and discover that you are a fat diabetic or DEAD.

Type 1 (or juvenile) diabetes is more of a defect from birth....commonly caused by heritage and usually presents itself early in life. Sometimes it might go well into the teens or young adulthood before the defected pancreas fully shows itself....."

Read a book every now and then and stop playing video games or parroting like minded "OPINIONS" from the web while pretending to be intelligent. The one thing that never changes.......A FACT of SCIENCE. Such as, you are ignorantly promoting the same diet that a farmer uses to FATTEN UP HIS HOGS for market, while telling us.......ITS HEALTHY. You want to ban something for health reasons? Ban processed sugar..........see how far you get with the politicians and all the smart people getting kickbacks from this industry. Sugar is contained in almost all supermarket foods. Processed sugar if far more addictive than the majority of the drugs declared as illegal in the WAR ON DRUGS.


Lesson: I once knew a real smart person that once admitted that he was wrong JUST ONCE IN HIS LIFE..........turns out he was not wrong he was merely "mistaken".

In simpler terms as my pap would say, "If you told this story to a mule...........he would kick your brains out.........not because you lied, but.......because you thought/assumed he was stupid enough to believe such nonsense."

 

[Innocynioc]

In my opinion, this cannot be justified by logical means, because if you can eat someone else's meat, then someone else can eat your meat, therefore nothing prevents cannibalism. If you accept the point of view of a meat-eater, then you should not be indignant that someone ate your child.

Argument for eating Meat
by Innocynioc » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:21 pm

I know that eating too much meat is not healthy, but then neither is eating too many raisins, beans, peanuts or virtually any particular foodstuff . Some point to our teeth as an indication that we are meant to be vegetarians. I beg to differ. I believe our teeth are an indication we are meant to be omnivores. Look at the teeth of a true natural vegetarian such as a cow or horse. There are no canines at all, only incisors and molars. People have canines.

Also there is a very strong evidence that hominids began making flint tools at least two million years ago. A flint knife dulls more quickly than the best steel blades, but it can be made every bit as sharp. Who needs big canines when they have a good sharp knife to cut up their delicious meat. Much evolution can happen in a couple of million years.

There are also other biological factors which indicate that we human beings have evolved to eat meat. Consider that the arms and particularly the shoulders of human beings are better evolved and adapted to throw objects than those any other animal. Throwing is not needed for the gathering part of the hunter gatherer life style, but for hominids it is vital for the hunter part. Stones and then spears were needed to kill animals which as we all know are made of delicious nutritious meat.

Also consider that our closest genetic relatives, chimpanzees, are omnivores. Troops of chimps are particularly keen to kill and eat monkeys. I prefer chicken.

There is also a widely accepted theory that the remarkably large brains in relation to total body mass we homo sapiens and our more recent hominid ancestors and relatives enjoy could never have evolved into existence with out the protein and fat rich nutrition provided by wonderful savory meat.

Also there is a large and growing body of peer reviewed scientific evidence that the healthiest diet of all includes both meat and alcohol as well as fruits and vegetables. The article quoted below describes an example of this research.



STUDY: VEGETARIANS LESS HEALTHY THAN MEAT EATERS Vegetarians are less healthy and have a worse quality of life than meat eaters, according to a study by the University of Graz, Austria.

ATLANTA (CBS ATLANTA) – Vegetarians may have a lower BMI and drink alcohol sparingly, but vegetarian diets are tied to generally poorer health, poorer quality of life and a higher need for health care than their meat-eating counterparts.
A new study from the Medical University of Graz in Austria finds that vegetarians are more physically active, drink less alcohol and smoke less tobacco than those who consume meat in their diets. Vegetarians also have a higher socioeconomic status and a lower body mass index. But the vegetarian diet — characterized by a low consumption of saturated fats and cholesterol that includes increased intake of fruits, vegetables and whole-grain products — carries elevated risks of cancer, allergies and mental health disorders.
Vegetarians were twice as likely to have allergies, a 50 percent increase in heart attacks and a 50 percent increase in incidences of cancer.
The cross-sectional study from Austrian Health Interview Survey data and published in PLos One examined participants dietary habits, demographic characteristics and general lifestyle differences.
The most significant dietary habit difference between meat-eaters and vegetarians concerned their BMI and alcohol consumption – with both being higher for those who consume meat.
Many past studies have instead put an emphasis on the health risks associated with red meat and carnivorous diets, but this study points the other dietary direction. However, the researchers do caution that continuing studies will be needed to substantiate some of the rather broad dietary distinctions, associations presented in this current research.
Overall, vegetarians were found to be in a poorer state of health compared to other dietary groups. Vegetarians reported higher levels of impairment from disorders, chronic diseases, and “suffer significantly more often from anxiety/depression.”
Subjects who consumed lower amounts of animal fat were also linked to poor health care practices, such as avoidance of vaccinations and a lack of preventive care.
Chronic problems associated with vegetarians were linked to more frequent visits to doctors, which the study authors suggest requires public health programs to reduce the health risk due to their nutritional factors.
The researchers conclude: “Our study has shown that Austrian adults who consume a vegetarian diet are less healthy (in terms of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), have a lower quality of life, and also require more medical treatment.”
“Therefore, a continued strong public health program for Austria is required in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors.”
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention notes that healthy diets rich in fruits and vegetables may reduce the risk of cancer and other chronic diseases for all dietary groups. A 2009 study from the CDC found that about 1 in 200 young Americans, or 367,000 US children, are vegetarians.
— Benjamin Fearnow



Consider the following:



Why becoming a vegetarian really IS just a phase: 84% go back to eating meat again - many within just three months
Survey found 84% vegetarians eventually go back to eating meat
More than half (53%) start eating meat again within a year
Almost a third reported they relapsed within three months
Most people said they found it difficult to maintain a 'pure' plant-based diet
They also didn't like being the odd one out among their friends
The majority of people (88%) of people have never tried giving up meat
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z3WCwJ5S4M



I posit the the reason so many people who try vegetarian diets return to eating meat is because it is simply not a natural diet for human beings. The following brief article offers substantial support for that belief.



Hot Find! Humans Used Fire 1 Million Years Ago
LiveScience

Hot Find! Humans Used Fire 1 Million Years Ago
by Charles Q. Choi, Live Science Contributor | April 02, 2012 03:01pm ET

Researchers found evidence of human fire use in South Africa's Wonderwerk Cave (shown here), a massive cavern located near the edge of the Kalahari Desert.


Ash and charred bone, the earliest known evidence of controlled use of fire, reveal that human ancestors may have used fire a million years ago, a discovery that researchers say will shed light on this major turning point in human evolution.

Scientists analyzed material from Wonderwerk Cave in South Africa, a massive cavern located near the edge of the Kalahari Desert. Previous excavations there had uncovered an extensive record of human occupation.

Microscopic analysis revealed clear evidence of burning, such as plant ash and charred bone fragments. These materials were apparently burned in the cave, as opposed to being carried in there by wind or water, and were found alongside stone tools in a layer dating back about 1 million years. Surface fracturing of ironstone, the kind expected from fires, was also seen.

Although modern humans are the only human species alive today, originating about 200,000 years ago, other human species once roamed the Earth, such as Homo erectus, which arose about 1.9 million years ago.

"The analysis pushes the timing for the human use of fire back by 300,000 years, suggesting that human ancestors as early as Homo erectus may have begun using fire as part of their way of life," said researcher Michael Chazan, a paleolithic archaeologist at the University of Toronto and director of the university's archaeology center.....................................................

Harvard anthropologist Richard Wrangham has speculated that controlled fires and cooked meat even influenced human brain evolution. He suggests that humans were cooking their prey as far back as the first appearance of Homo erectus 1.9 million years ago, just when humans were experiencing major brain expansion, and proposes that cooking allowed our ancestors to evolve larger, more calorie-hungry brains and bodies, and smaller guts suited for more easily digested cooked food.



Hot Find! Humans Used Fire 1 Million Years Ago

A diet which has allowed human beings and our hominid ancestors and relatives to thrive, increase and prosper for a million or more years is not something to be abandoned lightly.

By the way, vegans, do you get adequate amounts of vitamin B12 from vegetarian foods or do you take a supplement?

I need to end this long winded post now. There is a cold turkey leg in our refrigerator. I am going to slice off some of that rich dark meat and make myself a sandwich.


Take heart that in the face of ever deepening gloom your dog is finally getting enough government cheese