Indians: Had Enough of the Mythology?

[Roadrunner]

AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

I have heard it postulated in National Geographic years ago that domestic dogs brought a variety of diseases, rabies being one.

Okay, I didn't think of that one. But surely the dogs were already here in the form of wolves and that is what the NAs domesticated? Is there evidence that dogs were brought with the NAs from wherever they came from?

More on the dogs:

Origin of the domestic dog - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Long and I haven't read it all.

But, seems dogs were domesticated long before the Early Arrivers got here, so, probably safe to assume they had dogs.

I have a mental picture of an illustration in National Geographic, August or September of 1979 I think, that showed Early Arrivals trekking with dogs.

I remember it , because I used it in the first lesson I ever taught as an American History teacher.

 

[Roadrunner]

PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.

I never once stated that Native Americans did not kill off anything. Please provide a link to indicate otherwise, you insufferable twit.

I laugh at ignorance.

And, have no trouble both pointing and laughing.....and documenting what I post.

"I never once stated that Native Americans did not kill off anything."
The post to which you are referring was created in response to you two begging to find a way to explain the extinctions sans blaming the savages.

You opened the door....I walked through it.

Translation:

Ignorance = anyone who is not lock-step with your right-wing lunacy.

It appears that the word 'lunacy' is not one you can define....but it serves as another attempt to criticize my posts.

Of course, the right way would be to show any errors in said posts.

Not possible.

Please take a lesson from Roadrunner, he is actually making this thread readable.

You insulted me because you are too stupid to understand facetiousness.

Don't patronize me now.

 

[Roadrunner]

Here I am laughing at you two, TweedleDumb and TweedleDumber, trying so hard to avoid the truth:

The savages destroyed so many of the animals that many disappeared from the planet.

And that is the theme of this thread.....primitives, savages, stone-age cultures destroy, kill, and ravage, and that refers to the environment as well as any fauna they come across.


Your attitude toward said cultures is exactly why I posted this thread. I hope I have disabused you of early attitude and beliefs.....
...although you have yet to withdraw you complaint about them being called "savages."




In any case....here is more in the way of documentation of the way the savages acted:

14. The guesswork and presumption on the part of you, and the brilliant Ravi are laughable....but only in the way that Lord Byron meant laugh...

"And if I laugh at any mortal thing,

’Tis that I may not weep;"

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The historical record provides proof that you two would rather ignore: the extinctions were due to the savage behavior of the primitives.....everywhere!


No matter the animal....primitives found ways to kill them.


a. " When the Aborigines arrived in Australia the fauna ‘included a large variety of monotremes and marsupials, including ‘giant’ forms of macropodids (kangaroos and related species). Within 15,000 years all were extinct."
Alvard, M.S., ‘Conservation by Native Peoples: Prey Choice in a Depleted Habitat’, Human Nature, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1994, pp.127-154, citing Horton, J., 'Red Kangaroos: Last of the Australian Megafauna' in Martin, P., and Klein, R., (eds.) Quartenary Extinctions, Tuscon: University and Murray, P., 'Extinctions Down Under: A Bestiary of Extinct Australian Late Pleistocene Monotremes and Marsupials, in Martin, P. and Klein, R.


b. "The ‘prime peoples’ of Madagascar hunted several species of giant lemurs to extinction."
Dewar, R., 'Extinctions in Madagascar: The Loss of the Subfossil Fauna’


c. "The arrival of the Maoris in New Zealand was quickly followed by the extinction of 34 species of birds."
Alvard, M.S., Op.Cit


c. As Matt Ridley puts it, ‘the first Maoris sat down and ate their way through all twelve species of the giant moa birds’, leaving about a third of the meat to rot, and entire ovens stuffed with roast haunches unopened, so plentiful was the initial supply.
Ridley, M., "The Origins of Virtue," p.219




15. Peter Martin developed what has become known as the ‘Overkill Hypothesis’ to explain the disappearance of large number of species - particularly mammal species - over the relatively short time-span of a few thousand years following the arrival of humans on the different continents. He argued that, where animals had plenty of time to get used to humans, as in Europe and Africa where homo sapiens first appeared, they learned to be cautious.

It was the arrival of man in Australia and America which was particularly devastating as the animals did not know what to expect and provided easy targets. North America lost 73 per cent of its large mammalian species, South America 79 per cent, Australia 86 per cent, but Africa only 14 per cent.
Peter Ward, "The End of Evolution: Dinosaurs, Mass Extinction and Biodiversity," p. 202.

^^^ Typical PC, blames "savages" (read, pre historic people the world over) for mass extinctions.

staggers the imagination - we are talking about native Americans, and PC moves the goal posts to include primitive humans the world over.

AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

 

[Ravi]

Please cut and paste (your specialty) the post where I indicated that my position was that native Americans did not cause extinctions.

I'll wait.

The insane Ravi pretended that she had some knowledge of the diets of the organisms that became extinct, and discussed them eating Indians....
...and you went with it...

Post #102...
"The tigers ate herbivores. NAs weren't herbivores.
Very good point, I don't really know if their diet was so limited, I'll check on that."

That was your opportunity to choose the correct side....and you punted.

Oh dear Lord! Do you ever read up on a subject before you opine on it? The tigers did eat herbivores. NAs were not herbivores. The most casual study of science will tell you this is so.

Wait a minute.

Are you suggesting a hungry tiger would not eat a man that was not vegan?

Nope. I'm saying they wouldn't eat them as a matter of course. And as the article I linked before shows that the tigers had plenty of prey, there would be no need for the tigers to eat humans.

Humans are weak.

Great reason to hunt them.

I don't think so. Animals wouldn't expend energy in that manner.

I just had an epiphany though. It's possible that, just like some wacky Asian cultures believe in the power of ground up bones, tusks, etc., the NAs hunted the tigers for similar strange reasons. Therefore we can blame any extinction on PC's savage relatives .

That wouldn't account for the fact that all the megafauna went extinct at the same time though.

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.

I never once stated that Native Americans did not kill off anything. Please provide a link to indicate otherwise, you insufferable twit.

I laugh at ignorance.

And, have no trouble both pointing and laughing.....and documenting what I post.

"I never once stated that Native Americans did not kill off anything."
The post to which you are referring was created in response to you two begging to find a way to explain the extinctions sans blaming the savages.

You opened the door....I walked through it.

Translation:

Ignorance = anyone who is not lock-step with your right-wing lunacy.

It appears that the word 'lunacy' is not one you can define....but it serves as another attempt to criticize my posts.

Of course, the right way would be to show any errors in said posts.

Not possible.

Please take a lesson from Roadrunner, he is actually making this thread readable.

You insulted me because you are too stupid to understand facetiousness.

Don't patronize me now.

Not going there, I apologies, let's keep this thread on track.

 

[Roadrunner]

The insane Ravi pretended that she had some knowledge of the diets of the organisms that became extinct, and discussed them eating Indians....
...and you went with it...

Post #102...
"The tigers ate herbivores. NAs weren't herbivores.
Very good point, I don't really know if their diet was so limited, I'll check on that."

That was your opportunity to choose the correct side....and you punted.

Oh dear Lord! Do you ever read up on a subject before you opine on it? The tigers did eat herbivores. NAs were not herbivores. The most casual study of science will tell you this is so.

Wait a minute.

Are you suggesting a hungry tiger would not eat a man that was not vegan?

Nope. I'm saying they wouldn't eat them as a matter of course. And as the article I linked before shows that the tigers had plenty of prey, there would be no need for the tigers to eat humans.

Humans are weak.

Great reason to hunt them.

I don't think so. Animals wouldn't expend energy in that manner.

I just had an epiphany though. It's possible that, just like some wacky Asian cultures believe in the power of ground up bones, tusks, etc., the NAs hunted the tigers for similar strange reasons. Therefore we can blame any extinction on PC's savage relatives .

That wouldn't account for the fact that all the megafauna went extinct at the same time though.

All available evidence is that climate change was the main cause.

Take the northern pachyderms for example, they died out worldwide, with a remnant dwarf population existing somewhere on some Arctic Sea island off Siberia until fairly modern times.

I think I read they lasted until 100AD or so.

 

[Ravi]

^^^ Typical PC, blames "savages" (read, pre historic people the world over) for mass extinctions.

staggers the imagination - we are talking about native Americans, and PC moves the goal posts to include primitive humans the world over.

AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

 

[Ravi]

Oh dear Lord! Do you ever read up on a subject before you opine on it? The tigers did eat herbivores. NAs were not herbivores. The most casual study of science will tell you this is so.

Wait a minute.

Are you suggesting a hungry tiger would not eat a man that was not vegan?

Nope. I'm saying they wouldn't eat them as a matter of course. And as the article I linked before shows that the tigers had plenty of prey, there would be no need for the tigers to eat humans.

Humans are weak.

Great reason to hunt them.

I don't think so. Animals wouldn't expend energy in that manner.

I just had an epiphany though. It's possible that, just like some wacky Asian cultures believe in the power of ground up bones, tusks, etc., the NAs hunted the tigers for similar strange reasons. Therefore we can blame any extinction on PC's savage relatives .

That wouldn't account for the fact that all the megafauna went extinct at the same time though.

All available evidence is that climate change was the main cause.

Take the northern pachyderms for example, they died out worldwide, with a remnant dwarf population existing somewhere on some Arctic Sea island off Siberia until fairly modern times.

I think I read they lasted until 100AD or so.

I tend to agree with this. Maybe PC can make a case that NAs were responsible for climate change.

 

[Roadrunner]

AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I said it has been postulated that disease CONTRIBUTED to the extinction.

It is not my theory, and nowhere did I say disease brought by man and his animals was the sole reason.

Considering the devastating effect of the Columbian Exchange on "Native Americans", and on animals such as wild sheep, when domestic sheep arrived, it think it is plausible that disease CONTRIBUTED.

 

[Mad_Cabbie]

Wait a minute.

Are you suggesting a hungry tiger would not eat a man that was not vegan?

Nope. I'm saying they wouldn't eat them as a matter of course. And as the article I linked before shows that the tigers had plenty of prey, there would be no need for the tigers to eat humans.

Humans are weak.

Great reason to hunt them.

I don't think so. Animals wouldn't expend energy in that manner.

I just had an epiphany though. It's possible that, just like some wacky Asian cultures believe in the power of ground up bones, tusks, etc., the NAs hunted the tigers for similar strange reasons. Therefore we can blame any extinction on PC's savage relatives .

That wouldn't account for the fact that all the megafauna went extinct at the same time though.

All available evidence is that climate change was the main cause.

Take the northern pachyderms for example, they died out worldwide, with a remnant dwarf population existing somewhere on some Arctic Sea island off Siberia until fairly modern times.

I think I read they lasted until 100AD or so.

I tend to agree with this. Maybe PC can make a case that NAs were responsible for climate change.

In one of the links, I red something about the earth warming had something to do with the larger animals disappearing.

It would make sense for Mammoths and other cold-weather creatures to become more rare under those conditions.

It would then have made them more vulnerable to over-hunting.

 

[Roadrunner]

AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

 

[Ravi]

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I said it has been postulated that disease CONTRIBUTED to the extinction.

It is not my theory, and nowhere did I say disease brought by man and his animals was the sole reason.

Considering the devastating effect of the Columbian Exchange on "Native Americans", and on animals such as wild sheep, when domestic sheep arrived, it think it is plausible that disease CONTRIBUTED.

Didn't mean to generalize. I just doubt that it would have taken a disease 12,000+ years to wipe out a "native" population.

 

[Ravi]

^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.

 

[Ravi]

Damn. I actually learned a few things and had an enjoyable discussion on a PC thread!

 

[Roadrunner]

Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.

Hmm, ever heard of boats and rafts.

There was no land bridge to the Easter Islands.

 

[Roadrunner]

Damn. I actually learned a few things and had an enjoyable discussion on a PC thread!

You can learn a lot if you pay attention.

 

[Ravi]

Damn. I actually learned a few things and had an enjoyable discussion on a PC thread!

You can learn a lot if you pay attention.

Too bad we can't say the same of PC.

 

[Ravi]

I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.

Hmm, ever heard of boats and rafts.

There was no land bridge to the Easter Islands.

Right, and if people did come from there it wasn't in great numbers and I can't really see them bringing many dogs.

 

[Roadrunner]

Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.

Hmm, ever heard of boats and rafts.

There was no land bridge to the Easter Islands.

Right, and if people did come from there it wasn't in great numbers and I can't really see them bringing many dogs.

I've never seen much on how many people might have crossed Beringia.

Time for you to do the research though!

; - )

 

[Ravi]

Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?

I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.

Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.

Hmm, ever heard of boats and rafts.

There was no land bridge to the Easter Islands.

Right, and if people did come from there it wasn't in great numbers and I can't really see them bringing many dogs.

I've never seen much on how many people might have crossed Beringia.

Time for you to do the research though!

; - )

I can't find it but I thought this article was interesting. Not sure if by native Americans they are talking about both continents or just North America. The article also discusses what might have happened to the megafauna.

First Americans Lived on Bering Land Bridge for Thousands of Years - Scientific American