In defense of flogging

[Quantum Windbag]

This guy makes some really good points. I wonder how many people here will totally miss the point.

Suggest adding the whipping post to America’s system of criminal justice and most people recoil in horror. But offer a choice between five years in prison or 10 lashes and almost everybody picks the lash. What does that say about prison? America has a prison problem. Never in the history of the world has a country locked up so many of its people. We have more prisons than China, and it has a billion more people than we do. Forty years ago America had 338,000 people behind bars. Today 2.3 million are incarcerated. We have more prisoners than soldiers. Something has gone terribly wrong.
The problem — mostly due to longer and mandatory sentences combined with an idiotic war on drugs — is so abysmal that the Supreme Court recently ordered 33,000 prisoners in California to be housed elsewhere or released. If California could simply return to its 1970 level of incarceration, the savings from its $9 billion prison budget would cut the state’s budget deficit in half. But doing so would require the release of 125,000 inmates, and not even the most progressive reformer has a plan to reduce the prison population by 85 percent.
I do: Bring back the lash. Give convicts the choice of flogging in lieu of incarceration.

In lieu of prison, bring back the lash - The Washington Post


Anyone that is serious about reforming the prison system should read his book.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465021484?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0465021484]Amazon.com: In Defense of Flogging (9780465021482): Peter Moskos: Books[/ame]

 

[Tank]

Give China America's Hispanic and black population, and watch the changes

 

[editec]

Actually I think the stocks, pillory and PUBLIC HUMILIATUON might be a more effective approach than the lash.

But it's a DROP DEAD CINCH that if we make our prison system

1. A for profit industy , and

2. A place where for profit corporation can hire cheap (very cheap) labor


That this nation will end up with MORE PRISONS and MORE prisoners, simply because it will serve the MASTERS.

Basically what we are turning our nation into is a SLAVE nation as we legalize and encourage prison labor

 

[Dabs]

This guy makes some really good points. I wonder how many people here will totally miss the point.

Suggest adding the whipping post to America’s system of criminal justice and most people recoil in horror. But offer a choice between five years in prison or 10 lashes and almost everybody picks the lash. What does that say about prison? America has a prison problem. Never in the history of the world has a country locked up so many of its people. We have more prisons than China, and it has a billion more people than we do. Forty years ago America had 338,000 people behind bars. Today 2.3 million are incarcerated. We have more prisoners than soldiers. Something has gone terribly wrong.
The problem — mostly due to longer and mandatory sentences combined with an idiotic war on drugs — is so abysmal that the Supreme Court recently ordered 33,000 prisoners in California to be housed elsewhere or released. If California could simply return to its 1970 level of incarceration, the savings from its $9 billion prison budget would cut the state’s budget deficit in half. But doing so would require the release of 125,000 inmates, and not even the most progressive reformer has a plan to reduce the prison population by 85 percent.
I do: Bring back the lash. Give convicts the choice of flogging in lieu of incarceration.

In lieu of prison, bring back the lash - The Washington Post


Anyone that is serious about reforming the prison system should read his book.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465021484?ie=UTF8&tag=slatmaga-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0465021484]Amazon.com: In Defense of Flogging (9780465021482): Peter Moskos: Books[/ame]

People shouldn't do the crime if they can't do the time. I know the prisons are over-crowded, and I don't have any explanations on how to help that problem, honestly I don't consider it my personal problem, I wasn't the one that committed the crime.
5 years in prison compared to 10 lashes?? Come on, of course you know people will pick the whippings. Damn, they walk the streets free the next day, and not spending 5 YEARS in a pen, sure does sound better to most no doubt.
If I had to choose, seriously?? I would choose prison. This ole gal has enough 'flogging' in her lifetime, and I have some scars left to prove it, I really don't think I could live with the mental pain or physical pain of lashing/flogging/whipping anymore.
But then, I'm not planning on going to prison any time in my life either.

 

[Anachronism]

I am a STRONG supporter of a number of "alternative" punishment methods.

I support flogging, branding, pillorying, tarring and feathering (or some similar modern equivelant), public execution, chain gangs, and public humiliation as means of punishing criminal offenders IN ADDITION TO the option for incarceration.

 

[editec]

I am a STRONG supporter of a number of "alternative" punishment methods.

I support flogging, branding, pillorying, tarring and feathering (or some similar modern equivelant), public execution, chain gangs, and public humiliation as means of punishing criminal offenders IN ADDITION TO the option for incarceration.

Not that any of the above worked very well in the past, and not that prisons rehabilitate now, either.

Basically if you want MOST people not to do crimes, in most cases we'd have to give those people something to LOSE other than just their freedom.


Now, of course, there is a class of person who will be a criminal regardless of what they have to lose. There is NOTHING that can be done about that class of criminal.

But for most people who end up doing crime, they really had so little lose and so much to gain by doing crimes, that for them the choice was obvious.

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

I say hell yeah if costumes are mandatory...

 

[Anachronism]

Not that any of the above worked very well in the past, and not that prisons rehabilitate now, either.

I think that some of those things would work very well nowadays. Especially in our society.

Basically if you want MOST people not to do crimes, in most cases we'd have to give those people something to LOSE other than just their freedom.

The biggest thing they would lose in some of those situations is their "good name". You walk in to apply for a job.... "Gee, weren't you in the pillory out in front of city hall last week? Sorry, the job has been filled." "Gee, you seem like a real nice gal except for that adulteress' "A" branded on your neck."

Now, of course, there is a class of person who will be a criminal regardless of what they have to lose. There is NOTHING that can be done about that class of criminal.

Very true. The only thing to do in those cases is what you do with mad dogs.... put them down for the betterment of society.

But for most people who end up doing crime, they really had so little lose and so much to gain by doing crimes, that for them the choice was obvious.

That's why we need to create a system where the penalties for doing the crime are worse than the rewards.

 

[FA_Q2]

Bad idea. The reason that many would choose the lash is because it is not much of a punishment. Temporary pain is nothing compared to the loss of time. Then again, time in prison usually makes a criminal MORE likely to commit crime. The only plus to prison is that many are afraid to become criminals in the first place.

The point about the drug war is spot on though and it seems this realization is becoming more and more widespread. For the first time, I actually think that I may see real reform on this within my lifetime.

The biggest thing they would lose in some of those situations is their "good name". You walk in to apply for a job.... "Gee, weren't you in the pillory out in front of city hall last week? Sorry, the job has been filled." "Gee, you seem like a real nice gal except for that adulteress' "A" branded on your neck."

Criminals do not have a ‘good’ name to worry about. If anything, it would be a badge of honor for many. People purposely get ‘branded’ after they get out of prison.

 

[wolf_22]

yeah that 8th amendment - how fucking annoying.

we have overcorwding b./c of the drug war and those mandatory sentences. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that each crime is different and supposing everyone belongs in jail for the same time is stupid

we also have a bigger issue - no rehabilitation or crime prevention. prisons do little, but at least offer some. beating someone doesn't reform them. it reinforces violence as being acceptable.
and does little to address why the crime happened in the first place both to stop the person from reoffended later and to prevent other crime

 

[amhealy]

Prison/jail is a deterrent, usually, to those who want to protect their reputation. It's not a deterrent to career criminals, imo. I don't think "shame" is a factor that plays into motivating people to avoid breaking laws.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm confused...it's a prison problem because people would rather be lashed than go to prison?

I thought they were SUPPOSED to want to avoid prison..isn't that the point?

I'm not for lashings. We worked too hard to make it a crime to torture prisoners, who although the are a criminal, are still a vulnerable, population. I don't think legalizing the torture of criminals is going to take us forward. Quite the opposite. You don't become more depraved to deal with a more depraved population.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm confused...it's a prison problem because people would rather be lashed than go to prison?

I thought they were SUPPOSED to want to avoid prison..isn't that the point?

I'm not for lashings. We worked too hard to make it a crime to torture prisoners, who although the are a criminal, are still a vulnerable, population. I don't think legalizing the torture of criminals is going to take us forward. Quite the opposite. You don't become more depraved to deal with a more depraved population.

It is a prison problem because prisons are actually inhumane.

Prisons should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

 

[AllieBaba]

The prisons are humane enough. It's the residents who aren't.

Prisons aren't and have never been about rehabilitation. They're about punishment, and protecting society from people who do harm to others. And they certainly aren't supposed to be a sought-after destination, that's ridiculous.

 

[amhealy]

I'm confused...it's a prison problem because people would rather be lashed than go to prison?

I thought they were SUPPOSED to want to avoid prison..isn't that the point?

I'm not for lashings. We worked too hard to make it a crime to torture prisoners, who although the are a criminal, are still a vulnerable, population. I don't think legalizing the torture of criminals is going to take us forward. Quite the opposite. You don't become more depraved to deal with a more depraved population.

It is a prison problem because prisons are actually inhumane.

Prisons should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

The pendulum swings back and forth. Currently, it's about punishment, not rehabilitation. Eventually, the pendulum will swing back towards rehabilitation. And then when we realize rehabilitation doesn't work (again), it will swing back towards merely punishment.

 

[FA_Q2]

yeah that 8th amendment - how fucking annoying.

we have overcorwding b./c of the drug war and those mandatory sentences. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that each crime is different and supposing everyone belongs in jail for the same time is stupidwe also have a bigger issue - no rehabilitation or crime prevention. prisons do little, but at least offer some. beating someone doesn't reform them. it reinforces violence as being acceptable.
and does little to address why the crime happened in the first place both to stop the person from reoffended later and to prevent other crime

And it does not take a genius to figure out that some judges are activist, nuts or fucking idiots in their sentencing. There should not be situations where punishments for similar crimes have no connection at all.
3 counts molestation and 3 counts child rape: 6 months
Local News | 6-month sentence for child molester | Seattle Times Newspaper
2 counts of molestation: life in prison
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY5e270fl8]YouTube - ‪Criminal Judge Sentences Child Molester‬‏[/ame]

Sentences need good guidelines. While hardline minimums have consequences so do willy nilly sentencing by judges. We need something in the middle. Maybe hard minimums that can be changed for particular circumstances.

 

[Montrovant]

I think you may be using misleading examples. According to the article you linked, in the first case it was 3 counts of third-degree child rape and 3 counts of third-degree molestation which could have led to up to 5 years in prison. I assume the case the video is about is first-degree. So it doesn't sound as though this necessarily has much to do with the judges' decisions; the sentences are limited to some extent by the crimes.

This is not to say your overall point is invalid, just that the examples you give by way of comparison do not appear to be clear cases of poor jobs done by judges.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The prisons are humane enough. It's the residents who aren't.

Prisons aren't and have never been about rehabilitation. They're about punishment, and protecting society from people who do harm to others. And they certainly aren't supposed to be a sought-after destination, that's ridiculous.

The prisons are humane? I served in the Navy aboard a tin can and we had more room than this.

 

[Two Thumbs]

hmm

The lash over 5 years? fyi; They are asking the generation that's never been spanked and thinks S&M is fun sex play.

Getting hit with a lash rips the skin open, and then there's 9 more coming. That form of punishment wouldn't last a year as repeaters would chose jail and the word would get out to just how painful it is.

The china comparison is shit. People tend to end up dead instead of in jail.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The prisons are humane enough. It's the residents who aren't.

Prisons aren't and have never been about rehabilitation. They're about punishment, and protecting society from people who do harm to others. And they certainly aren't supposed to be a sought-after destination, that's ridiculous.

The prisons are humane? I served in the Navy aboard a tin can and we had more room than this.

I was on a sub and had far less.

Besides, if prison wasn't humane, people would put more effort into avoiding it.