Importance of insurance?

[Oddball]

Nice non sequitur.

I pay taxes and get an extremely piss poor value for the money from gubmint, at all levels.

People who purchase insurance do so for different reasons, that are entirely their judgment call. Besides, nobody -until now that is- is forcing anyone to purchase their product the way we're forced to purchase the "product" of Big Daddy Big Gubmint.

Try again.

 

[Madeline]

What bullshit. Many forms of insurance have been a requirement for various businesses all along.

Sloganeering ain't a substitute for thinking.

 

[Oddball]

Like driving, you have a choice as to whether you want to go into business or not.

Red herrings aren't a substitute, either.

 

[Madeline]

What business do you or I have in trying to speak for what someone else values and why?

Well, I mean unless one has a vested interest in imposing his own subjective values upon everyone else, at their expense, at gunpoint if necessary.

Yet, you seem to have no problem giving your opinion on the value of our government. What business do you have doing that? I'm asking for opinions on what service insurance companies are providing to society and you as usual respond with a senseless, thoughtless answer that much like insurance companies, overs no real value. Please go troll another thread.

An insurance company is a financial repository with (one hopes) tremendous skill at risk spreading and asset management. Buying insurance (life, fire, theft, etc.) allows the average person/business to shift unbearable risk onto a pool in exchange for a price they can afford (in theory).

If there were no insurance at all, no one would be able to own a home, buy a car or sell a product or service. Insurance is as vital to our economy as banking or power.

 

[RDD_1210]

Nice non sequitur.

I pay taxes and get an extremely piss poor value for the money from gubmint, at all levels.

People who purchase insurance do so for different reasons, that are entirely their judgment call. Besides, nobody -until now that is- is forcing anyone to purchase their product the way we're forced to purchase the "product" of Big Daddy Big Gubmint.

Try again.

And STILL no answer from you. New screen name, same old habits. What value are insurance companies providing to society? You avoid the answer with your bullshit response because you know that insurance companies provide no value to the healthcare equation yet don't want to talk about that, you'd rather go off on your own tangent...like you always do.

 

[RDD_1210]

What business do you or I have in trying to speak for what someone else values and why?

Well, I mean unless one has a vested interest in imposing his own subjective values upon everyone else, at their expense, at gunpoint if necessary.

Yet, you seem to have no problem giving your opinion on the value of our government. What business do you have doing that? I'm asking for opinions on what service insurance companies are providing to society and you as usual respond with a senseless, thoughtless answer that much like insurance companies, overs no real value. Please go troll another thread.

An insurance company is a financial repository with (one hopes) tremendous skill at risk spreading and asset management. Buying insurance (life, fire, theft, etc.) allows the average person/business to shift unbearable risk onto a pool in exchange for a price they can afford (in theory).

If there were no insurance at all, no one would be able to own a home, buy a car or sell a product or service. Insurance is as vital to our economy as banking or power.

Yes thats the idea behind insurance, however healthcare insurance has outgrown that model over the years where even if you had fantastic coverage you were no longer guaranteed to have the coverage you need when the time comes for it. So insurance ceased to be insuring anything, except for their own profits. If you can't have peace of mind that you'd be covered in the event of a catastrophic illness, then what is the point of insurance in the global scheme of things. This is why insurance companies have outgrown the value they originally provided.

And thanks for answering my question...which Dude refused to do.

 

[Oddball]

I answered it...You simply refuse to accept the answer.

The only answer acceptable to you is total authoritarian central control.

 

[Madeline]

Yet, you seem to have no problem giving your opinion on the value of our government. What business do you have doing that? I'm asking for opinions on what service insurance companies are providing to society and you as usual respond with a senseless, thoughtless answer that much like insurance companies, overs no real value. Please go troll another thread.

An insurance company is a financial repository with (one hopes) tremendous skill at risk spreading and asset management. Buying insurance (life, fire, theft, etc.) allows the average person/business to shift unbearable risk onto a pool in exchange for a price they can afford (in theory).

If there were no insurance at all, no one would be able to own a home, buy a car or sell a product or service. Insurance is as vital to our economy as banking or power.

Yes thats the idea behind insurance, however healthcare insurance has outgrown that model over the years where even if you had fantastic coverage you were no longer guaranteed to have the coverage you need when the time comes for it. So insurance ceased to be insuring anything, except for their own profits. If you can't have peace of mind that you'd be covered in the event of a catastrophic illness, then what is the point of insurance in the global scheme of things. This is why insurance companies have outgrown the value they originally provided.

And thanks for answering my question...which Dude refused to do.

There are issues in the healthcare arena not presented in other lines. If you have 100 homes worth $100,000 apiece and the owners pool some of their money to pay for the cost to rebuild in the event of fire, then each has a similar value and each presents a similar risk...and while you cannot know which house may burn down, you can predict fairly accurately how many houses will burn down in a given time period.

Ergo, you have the basis for a rate pattern that is acceptable to the public and will reliably generate profits to the insurance company.

But human health is not at all like this. Inside these 100 homes you will have some families of 15 people as well as some of only two. Some will be aged and extremely likely to use high-cost services; some will be fertile and likely to get pregnant (also generating high costs, but for a shorter time period) etc. What's worse, the better you care for the human population you have insured, the longer they will live -- especially the ones who are terribly ill and draining you of profits or even of basic reserves (operating cash).

So, when the factors of exploding drug costs, innovations in health care with ginormous price tags, and fraud (estimates are as many as one in three dollars in health insurance is paid on a fraudulent claim) are added in, it is easy to see why insurance companies cannot find the solid footing on rates to assure profits, or the level of premium acceptable to the public that allows people to buy. It is also an aggravating factor that your 100 homes will likely generate one or two fire claims in a year, but the humans who occupy them will generate hundreds of thousands of such claims in health insurance.

What to do? Eliminate as much risk as possible. Deny coverage for pre-existing conditions (strictly speaking it isn't insurance if you are funding known future costs at lower than 100 cents on a dollar, and so the insureds with such conditions are basically seeking a hand out from the insurance company -- and the other humans in their rate pool). Cap pay-outs at a lifetime amount of X. Refuse coverage for "experimental treatments" and evade payment for emerging technologies and drugs as long as possible. Develop slow claims payment practices and byzantine claims filing practices that defeat even legitimate claimants' demands.

In short, human health insurance is only profitable to insurance companies if they are allowed to engage in all the abuses Obama and the Dems sought to eliminate by passage of the health care bill.

 

[Oddball]

Nice non sequitur.

I pay taxes and get an extremely piss poor value for the money from gubmint, at all levels.

People who purchase insurance do so for different reasons, that are entirely their judgment call. Besides, nobody -until now that is- is forcing anyone to purchase their product the way we're forced to purchase the "product" of Big Daddy Big Gubmint.

Try again.

And STILL no answer from you. New screen name, same old habits. What value are insurance companies providing to society? You avoid the answer with your bullshit response because you know that insurance companies provide no value to the healthcare equation yet don't want to talk about that, you'd rather go off on your own tangent...like you always do.

Your question is irrelevant because you cannot possibly determine what any one individual values when they make a purchase, let alone the entirety of "society".

Moreover, the premise is flawed in that the presumption of the question is that insurance companies have any obligation whatsoever, to provide value to anyone more than their customers.

GIGO.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Nice non sequitur.

I pay taxes and get an extremely piss poor value for the money from gubmint, at all levels.

People who purchase insurance do so for different reasons, that are entirely their judgment call. Besides, nobody -until now that is- is forcing anyone to purchase their product the way we're forced to purchase the "product" of Big Daddy Big Gubmint.

Try again.

And STILL no answer from you. New screen name, same old habits. What value are insurance companies providing to society? You avoid the answer with your bullshit response because you know that insurance companies provide no value to the healthcare equation yet don't want to talk about that, you'd rather go off on your own tangent...like you always do.

And you ignored the answer I had provided completely. Bring it im here

 

[johnrocks]

All insurance was designed for is a way to pool resources to guard against risks that ;by yourself ; could ruin you financially, it is a way to protect assets. We've gotten away from that and it's one of the many reasons why insurance is so expensive.

If your wealthy enough to self insure, you may not need it, Bill Gates doesn't need a puny $5 million dollar health insurance policy but I bet Microsoft is insured.

 

[Madeline]

What value does an insurance company have in the health insurance arena? Well, they have unique (and massive) experience in claims handling. Even Medicare has shunted off back room operations to private companies as much as possible (Medicare Plans). They have some expertise in rate-setting that would be hard to duplicate, and unless we are just gonna underwrite everyone's costs, we still have an interest in pegging the rate to the cost.

Of course, they have expertise in such things as marketing and sales that might not be as useful in a wide open single payor system, but still, not useless.

What they are best at -- screwing insureds, hospitals, MDs, labs, etc. out of legitimate expectations -- will hopefully be outmoded information very shortly. I'm not sure I'm holding my breath, but I look for some improvement.

 

[MaggieMae]

The question is, what value or services does insurance really offer anymore? It's a middleman for the sake of the middleman. One who is actually making the access to healthcare more difficult instead of more efficient.

Then why would the feds try to force that difficulty of access and lack of efficiency upon everyone?

Ironically, mandated health insurance was originally a Republican idea put forth as an alternative to Clinton's universal health care plan. Funny that they were all for it before they were against it.

 

[MaggieMae]

Insurance is important for business?

It is HUGELY important for business.

You mean liability insurance right? I had an accident where I destroyed a $50,000 car (welders and flamable flooring materials dont mix) and I tell you that $115/month in liability coverage more than paid for itself .

Worst part was it was a friends highly customized car

If your talking about health insurance I'd say no. However it is important for business' employees.

So you only care about a friend's health if he's working. Correct?

 

[MaggieMae]

Insurance is important for business?

Have you ever been sued as a business owner? If you could pass legislation that limited the lawyers take to say 10% and place caps, you could drive down the cost of everything.....

Take a minute and find out what group spends more on campaign contributions than anyone else.....

I would have to check the official fact pages on campaign contributions, but I believe the US Chamber of Commerce tops them all. Wouldn't it be nice if their wide range of supporting contributors (thanks to the USSC decision) had the best interests of the working class in mind as they spend their millions campaigning for conservatives and lobbying against anything Democrats try to do, including getting people back to work.

 

[MaggieMae]

What's the rational argument, that you're entitled to have a third party pick up the costs for your medical expenses?

You complain about lack of efficiency and force being in the marketplace, yet your only "answer" is to impose more inefficiency and force into that marketplace.

Doing more of the same thing over and over and over again, while expecting a better result.....

I don't intend to put my 2 cents in again to rehash the entire health care debate, but I just want people like you to remember that this issue wouldn't even be under discussion if it weren't for the fact that in the United States, health care provided by the private sector costs three times what it does in every other industrialized country. The only ones who don't care about that shocking fact are those who can afford it.

 

[MaggieMae]

Like I already said, doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, while expecting better results....

Doing the same thing over and over again....or in other words the republicans approach to health care reform.

Now, back to my original question.....what value do healthcare insurance companies provide?

Well...lately, they've been doing a lot of hiring.

 

[MaggieMae]

Like I already said, doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, while expecting better results....

Doing the same thing over and over again....or in other words the republicans approach to health care reform.

Now, back to my original question.....what value do healthcare insurance companies provide?

Diligence

Text of H.R.5424 as Introduced in House: Reform Americans Can Afford Act of 2010 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

your original question: They allow me to go to the doctor with short notice at any time I want for about 20 bucks...if i need a perscription another 20 bucks....god forbid I end up in the ER but at least I know it wont cost more than 500 bucks.

Thats the value they add, peace of mind, for a fee and profit. I'm willing to pay as long as I can choose my level of coverage and insurance provider, are you?

Nice that you can pay. Many can't. And when they see a doctor without insurance, that $20 becomes $100 for them, the prescription another $100.

 

[auditor0007]

Then why would the feds try to force that difficulty of access and lack of efficiency upon everyone?

Really? I know you're not asking for intelligent discussion Dude, but rather to start an argument. But I'll humor you anyway.....

Because there is no better option at this point. No public option, no single payer, so to ensure that all americans can get access they had to promise the insurance companies, who are unfortunately very much in control of healthcare still, that if they are to cover preexisting conditions then all people must have insurance in order to help alleviate some of the costs (ie. reduced profits) the insurance companies will have to take on.

What you really mean is that there's no better option that you will accept as better.

You're the one who has accepted the premise that a third-party payer is the best way to pay for medical expenses, not me...That's your problem.

We have to have insurance for the big things. Unless you are a multi-millionaire, you need catastrophic insurance. However, basic medical care would be much cheaper if everyone paid out of pocket. In the cases of those who can't afford even basic care, government could subsidize those in need. We already do this anyway, although in a very inefficient way.

Very simply, all health insurance policies should include a higher deductible. And then instead of allowing all medical procedures to be billed through insurance, make people pay out of pocket and submit their paid bills to their insurance companies so that they can be credited toward their deductible. Instead, we allow the providers and insurers to set the prices of each procedure. On top of that, we are charged outrageous administrative costs that add even more to the cost. If everyone had to pay out of pocket, they would look for the cheapest provider possilbe, or if they chose to pay more, it would be for reasons other than cost. Competition would be much greater and costs would be reduced for most basic medical care.

 

[auditor0007]

Like I already said, doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, while expecting better results....

Doing the same thing over and over again....or in other words the republicans approach to health care reform.

Now, back to my original question.....what value do healthcare insurance companies provide?

Diligence

Text of H.R.5424 as Introduced in House: Reform Americans Can Afford Act of 2010 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

your original question: They allow me to go to the doctor with short notice at any time I want for about 20 bucks...if i need a perscription another 20 bucks....god forbid I end up in the ER but at least I know it wont cost more than 500 bucks.

Thats the value they add, peace of mind, for a fee and profit. I'm willing to pay as long as I can choose my level of coverage and insurance provider, are you?

It may seem great that you can go to the doctor for $20. But the fact is that you are paying a hell of a lot more than $20. And by using insurance the way it is set up now, you are probably actually paying double to four times the actual cost for that visit to the doctor for your sore throat.