I will tell you why I am bored.

[Book of Jeremiah]

Iceweasel is right. There is no biblical support for Pergatory.
None.

 

[turzovka]

Im an open minded agnostic, very open to any "revealing" going on but unfortunately there is nothing innate about natural world beauty that compels my brain to assign it the attribute: revelation from god.

My bar for evidence is unfortunately higher than arbitrarily assigning credit like that.

And thats with a COMPLETE open mind.

Well then you should challenge your open mind and look further. (see below) This is where skeptics flee. This is where science reluctantly admits it has no answers. This is where heaven visits natural earth.

This first link below will explain why the carbon dating done in the 1980’s on the Shroud is very likely faulty. I have a number of other reports or articles dealing with the carbon dating subject as well. They all dismiss it as dubious for very good reasons. But far more important than that is the fact that science cannot explain what the image is on the shroud, what it is made of, or how it could have possibly been done in human terms. They cannot create such an image today in the 21 st century, much less a medieval forger. So what of it? Much of science walks away and tries to forget about it. Some skeptics still try so hard to call it a medieval forgery with no legitimate reasons for so holding that position. Non-believers in Christ do not want to hear about it. Protestants are conspicuously silent because they do not want to give Catholicism credit for anything. It’s all a sad game where no one is being honest because they want to protect their own beliefs about God or about no God.
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/science-shines-new-light-on-shroud-of-turins-age/


Here is another article from just last week. Seek God and you will find Him.
http://www.strangenotions.com/is-the-shroud-of-turin-a-genuine-miracle/

Is the Shroud of Turin a Genuine Miracle? by Fr. Dwight Longenecker

In June I had the joy to spend a week in Italy. One reason for my pilgrimage was to venerate the Shroud of Turin. I had been intrigued by the supposed burial cloth of Christ since I was in college, and as I was in England leading a pilgrimage with Joseph Pearce, I did not want to miss the chance of traveling to Turin to see the shroud.

I was not disappointed. After taking the high-speed train from Rome, a decent restaurant and an overnight stay, we walked the few blocks from our hotel first thing in the morning to the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist. We hustled, crowd free down the pathways set up to accommodate the tens of thousands of pilgrims from around the world who would, like us, have a few minutes to stand in silence before the famous, mysterious linen winding sheet of Christ.

After my visit I am more convinced than ever not only that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Christ, but that the mysterious image was produced by a blast of radiance from the resurrection. Those who wish to research the shroud can find scholarly and popular articles here and here. The most interesting thing about the shroud is the more scientific research is done the more the claims to authenticity accumulate. Not only is the image on the shroud that of a crucified man, but a particular crucified man.

He wore a crown of thorns. His legs were not broken. His face was punched. His side was pierced in a way consistent with a Roman spear. His back shows the marks of a severe flogging consistent with the flagellum used by the Romans. In other words, all the wounds match those not just of any crucified man, but those unique to Jesus of Nazareth.

Other details match in an extraordinary way. Fabric experts acknowledge that the particular linen cloth matches that used in the first century by wealthy individuals. The chemical traces on the cloth match the herbs and spices that were known to be used for Jewish burials in Roman times. Pollen from the shroud matches that present in Jerusalem in the first century. New scientific dating techniques counter the 1988 carbon 14 dating which identified a medieval date and they date the shroud to the first century.

Most mysterious is the image itself. In 1978 a team of American researchers were finally given access to the shroud. They ran a whole series of tests covering the range of scientific disciplines. Their analyses found no sign of artificial pigments and they concluded, “The Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist.” What formed the image? The scientists were stumped and admitted that “no combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances” could adequately account for the image.

So what formed the image? The best description is that it is an extremely delicate singe marking. Italian physicist Paolo Di Lazzaro concedes, in an April 2015 article for National Geographic, that every scientific attempt to replicate it in a lab has failed. “Its precise hue is highly unusual, and the color’s penetration into the fabric is extremely thin, less than 0.7 micrometers (0.000028 inches), one-thirtieth the diameter of an individual fiber in a single 200-fiber linen thread.”

Di Lazzaro and his colleagues at Italy’s National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (ENEA) experimented for five years, using modern excimer lasers to train short bursts of ultraviolet light on raw linen, in an effort to simulate the image’s coloration.

They came tantalizingly close to replicating the image’s distinctive color on a few square centimeters of fabric. However, they were unable to match all the physical and chemical characteristics of the shroud image, and reproducing a whole human figure was far beyond them. De Lazzaro explained that the ultraviolet light necessary to reproduce the image of the crucified man “exceeds the maximum power released by all ultraviolet light sources available today.” The time for such a burst would be shorter than one forty-billionth of a second, and the intensity of the ultra violet light would have to be around several billion watts.

The scientists shrug and say the only explanation lies beyond the realm of twenty-first century technoscience. In other words, the extraordinary burst of ultra violet light is not only beyond the ability and technology of a medieval forger: It is beyond the ability and technology of the best twenty-first century scientists.

Consequently, I wonder why atheists who insist on “evidence for the existence of God” don't take time to study the Shroud of Turin. If God does not exist, then the natural world has to be a closed system. If, however, just one miracle could be proven to have happened, then nature is not a closed system. If that miracle was intelligible then there has to be an intelligent force outside the system that is greater than the system. The resurrection of Jesus Christ would be that one necessary miracle. It is, after all, the miracle of miracles.

It is therefore ironic that it is only in this modern technoscientific age that the mysterious qualities of the Shroud of Turin have been unlocked. Ever since the photographer Secondo Pia discovered the shroud’s negative image in 1898 the forensic, archeological, documentary, cultural, chemical, physiological and physical evidence has accumulated. If there were ever any hard evidence for a miracle, this is it.

Therefore those who ask for evidence for the existence of God should take the time to examine the Shroud of Turin.

 

[Iceweasel]

Therefore those who ask for evidence for the existence of God should take the time to examine the Shroud of Turin.

It was debunked many years ago.

 

[CremeBrulee]

Consequently, I wonder why atheists who insist on “evidence for the existence of God” don't take time to study the Shroud of Turin

Because that is the same as using the Bible as "evidence."

 

[turzovka]

Therefore those who ask for evidence for the existence of God should take the time to examine the Shroud of Turin.

It was debunked many years ago.

So tell me, why are you really hoping there is still a chance it might not be real?
That is the part I am still puzzled over by "your kind."

 

[turzovka]

Consequently, I wonder why atheists who insist on “evidence for the existence of God” don't take time to study the Shroud of Turin

Because that is the same as using the Bible as "evidence."

That makes zero sense. With the Shroud we are dealing with scientific FACTS. Facts science cannot account for.

 

[Bonzi]

who care about the Shroud of Turin.

God is real that is all that matters.

 

[Iceweasel]

Therefore those who ask for evidence for the existence of God should take the time to examine the Shroud of Turin.

It was debunked many years ago.

So tell me, why are you really hoping there is still a chance it might not be real?
That is the part I am still puzzled over by "your kind."

I said nothing about hope, you see things that aren't there. I read an article back in the late 70s and it was debunked. I've seen 2 or three documentaries since and it was debunked with later methods. I believe in facts, you believe what you want, don't try to turn it around.

 

[CremeBrulee]

Consequently, I wonder why atheists who insist on “evidence for the existence of God” don't take time to study the Shroud of Turin

Because that is the same as using the Bible as "evidence."

That makes zero sense. With the Shroud we are dealing with scientific FACTS. Facts science cannot account for.

Your "facts" are only true if the Shroud is authentic.

 

[G.T.]

Sorry dude. A deity that wants me to worship him her or it while at the same time not making themselves abundantly clear to ME.....isnt worth it to me.

Ill continue my journey at my own accord, not what some book or humans tell me.

 

[turzovka]

who care about the Shroud of Turin.

God is real that is all that matters.

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

 

[Bonzi]

who care about the Shroud of Turin.

God is real that is all that matters.

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

I'm with you there brother.. <high five> preaching to the choir....

 

[Moonglow]

 

[boedicca]

The OP is too long, boring, and incoherent to bother reading in full.

 

[turzovka]

Your "facts" are only true if the Shroud is authentic.

Well, so, what of it?

Science has demonstrated that the Shroud is authentic. Supernatural in its formation. Because none of those qualities can be explained. Nor can they be reproduced even by the most advanced technology today.

God is speaking through his signs and wonders. But the world does not want to listen. I wonder why?

 

[turzovka]

The OP is too long, boring, and incoherent to bother reading in full.

Fine. You are not a candidate.

Continue on with all your "certainties" God is a myth then.

 

[Bonzi]

Because they are blind.
Unless God draws people to Him, and they open their hearts and minds to Him, he could appear in front of them and they would say it's a dream or a magic trick.

 

[turzovka]

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

>>I'm with you there brother.. <high five> preaching to the choir....<<

Yes, you are so confident Catholicism is a false religion, yet I notice you did not dare refute all the Bible passages I posted that speak of purgatory. Big surprise.

 

[boedicca]

The OP is too long, boring, and incoherent to bother reading in full.

Fine. You are not a candidate.

Continue on with all your "certainties" God is a myth then.

Are you 13 years old?

 

[boedicca]

Right. That is all that matters, except to keep reminding Catholics they are serving a false god with all their heretical beliefs and rituals.

>>I'm with you there brother.. <high five> preaching to the choir....<<

Yes, you are so confident Catholicism is a false religion, yet I notice you did not dare refute all the Bible passages I posted that speak of purgatory. Big surprise.

It is absolutely pointless to debate religion with a foaming at the mouth zealot.

Just sayin'.