I hate Baseball Statistics

[Pogo]

A number I have always hated was Saves

You come in with a lead....you are supposed to protect the lead

What matters is Blown Saves
I don't care if you saved 40 games.....I want a reliever who doesn't blow any leads

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

 

[rightwinger]

Why not just add walks and stolen bases to the calculation of your slugging percentage?

Semantics of course. What do walks and SBs have to do with slugging?

They have to do with your total offensive production

 

[rightwinger]

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

It should be Blown Save/Save Opportunities not Total Appearances. If the guy was to spot start a couple of games, or come into the game when it is tied, then those appearances would dilute the amount of save opportunities and would make him look like a better closer than he actually is.

I could go with that

But measuring saves without looking at the number of save blown is irrelevant

 

[rightwinger]

Why not just add walks and stolen bases to the calculation of your slugging percentage?

Semantics of course. What do walks and SBs have to do with slugging?

Stolen bases aren't part of ops im not sure where that one came from here. But walks are part of on base percentage so they're already calculated into the OPS.

If you ask me, I wouldn't be surprised if agents were behind all these new stats, to be used as bargaining leverage. In a sport where a player can now land a contract worth potentially half a billion dollars, why not try to get meaningless stats included into the mainstream so you can say look my guy gets on base a lot and also hits a bunch of doubles

I want to see the total number of bases accounted for by a hitter

If you get a single and steal second you have the same offense as if you hit a double

 

[xotoxi]

A number I have always hated was Saves

You come in with a lead....you are supposed to protect the lead

What matters is Blown Saves
I don't care if you saved 40 games.....I want a reliever who doesn't blow any leads

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

 

[Pogo]

Why not just add walks and stolen bases to the calculation of your slugging percentage?

Semantics of course. What do walks and SBs have to do with slugging?

Stolen bases aren't part of ops im not sure where that one came from here. But walks are part of on base percentage so they're already calculated into the OPS.

If you ask me, I wouldn't be surprised if agents were behind all these new stats, to be used as bargaining leverage. In a sport where a player can now land a contract worth potentially half a billion dollars, why not try to get meaningless stats included into the mainstream so you can say look my guy gets on base a lot and also hits a bunch of doubles

I want to see the total number of bases accounted for by a hitter

If you get a single and steal second you have the same offense as if you hit a double

Completely agree. And if you're running on the pitch and the hitter strokes a double into the gap and you score because you were running, you should get another one. For that matter a walk should count as a TB too.

 

[Pogo]

A number I have always hated was Saves

You come in with a lead....you are supposed to protect the lead

What matters is Blown Saves
I don't care if you saved 40 games.....I want a reliever who doesn't blow any leads

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

 

[xotoxi]

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

It should be Blown Save/Save Opportunities not Total Appearances. If the guy was to spot start a couple of games, or come into the game when it is tied, then those appearances would dilute the amount of save opportunities and would make him look like a better closer than he actually is.

I could go with that

But measuring saves without looking at the number of save blown is irrelevant

What about measuring two things, saves and Save percentage.

So if someone has 45 saves and 2 blown saves, their state would read: "45 (95.7%)"

While the guy with 36 with 1 blown save would read: "36 (97.3%)"

It would be up to you to determine if 45 saves is better than a save percentage of 97.3%

 

[xotoxi]

A number I have always hated was Saves

You come in with a lead....you are supposed to protect the lead

What matters is Blown Saves
I don't care if you saved 40 games.....I want a reliever who doesn't blow any leads

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

 

[Pogo]

A number I have always hated was Saves

You come in with a lead....you are supposed to protect the lead

What matters is Blown Saves
I don't care if you saved 40 games.....I want a reliever who doesn't blow any leads

Relievers should be measured by.........Blown Saves/Total Appearances

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

 

[xotoxi]

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

 

[Pogo]

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

 

[Paulie]

How about Holds?

Your team could have a 5-0 lead. A reliever could come in give up 4 runs and have the bases loaded with no outs when he is taken out and replaced with another pitcher. The new pitcher gets a 6-4-3 DP and the tying run scores.

The first guy gets a hold, the second guy get a blown save.

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I never liked that a starting pitcher's ERA can be affected by his relief allowing runners inherited from him to score but the reliever's isn't affected. They should each share 1/2 of that earned run

 

[rightwinger]

I think the first pitcher gets the BS since he's responsible for the runners on base, no?

Of course, if the game is on the line they prolly go for a 6-2-3 to stop the run, or at least the force at home.

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

It used to be W-L was the most important statistic. A pitcher who won 20 games was an All-Star
But it used to be the pitcher would go eight or nine innings to get the win

Now, he may go six or seven and they worry he is pitching too many innings. The starter does not have the impact on a win like he used to.

 

[rightwinger]

"A blown save occurs when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, but allows the tying run to score. The run does not have to be charged to that pitcher. If a reliever enters with a man already on third base, and he allows that runner to score the tying run, he is charged with a blown save."

Glossary | Blown Save (BS) | MLB.com

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

I think the strikeout is overrated

Counts the same as a ground ball out and ground balls lead to double plays

 

[Paulie]

The crucial phrase is "allows the tying run to score". It's a bit of a contradiction to say the tying run is "charged to" the previous pitcher but on the other hand say the next pitcher "allowed" it.

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

I think the strikeout is overrated

Counts the same as a ground ball out and ground balls lead to double plays

I don't know if I agree with that. A strikeout guarantees no run is scored. I'd rather never let the ball get out into play than risk giving up any runs

 

[rightwinger]

Meaning allowed inherited runners to score.

If you grandfather leaves you $10,000 and you blow it on coke and whores, then you BLEW your inheritance (I don't really think this is a good analogy, but I needed to insert a reference to coke and whores into this thread).

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

I think the strikeout is overrated

Counts the same as a ground ball out and ground balls lead to double plays

I don't know if I agree with that. A strikeout guarantees no run is scored. I'd rather never let the ball get out into play than risk giving up any runs

I guess it is situational

For most of the game, a ground ball out is as good as a strikeout....an out is an out

Bases loaded, nobody out.....you need a strike out
Bases loaded, one out.....a ground ball leads to a double play

 

[Paulie]

If you're a pitcher with guys on are you thinking about anything other than a strike out though? There's risk in putting the ball in play. I see a double play as a lucky byproduct of just trying to keep the ball down in the zone as it is

 

[Pogo]

Hey, whatever pays the bills if it's in your contract.

I don't disagree with the explanation, just pointing out it's a contradiction -- and only exists to enable the whole "saves" idea.

Pitcher stats are pretty iffy on a lot of things anyway. Won-lost record often says more about the team around him than the pitcher himself. And I never liked this metric that hangs his win/loss on whether his team was ahead when he left. If he leaves behind 1-0 after 8, and his relief gives up ten more runs and then his own team almost battles back and loses11-10, the starter gets the loss and all the bullpen gets is inflated ERAs.

Ain't fair I tellya.

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

I think the strikeout is overrated

Counts the same as a ground ball out and ground balls lead to double plays

I don't know if I agree with that. A strikeout guarantees no run is scored. I'd rather never let the ball get out into play than risk giving up any runs

I guess it is situational

For most of the game, a ground ball out is as good as a strikeout....an out is an out

Bases loaded, nobody out.....you need a strike out
Bases loaded, one out.....a ground ball leads to a double play

An infield fly works too.
Strikeouts take more pitches than inducing a ground ball or popup. If you just brought in a strikeout specialist for that purpose, that's fine. But if it's your starter you wear him out more.

 

[Paulie]

I think quality starts is a pretty telling stat...but the most important is always W-L...nothing else really matters.

W-L is virtually meaningless. A mediocre starter on a heavy-hitting team can win 20 on the basis of his offense. ERA is a lot more relevant. That, and K/BB ratio tell me a lot more about what to expect.

I think the strikeout is overrated

Counts the same as a ground ball out and ground balls lead to double plays

I don't know if I agree with that. A strikeout guarantees no run is scored. I'd rather never let the ball get out into play than risk giving up any runs

I guess it is situational

For most of the game, a ground ball out is as good as a strikeout....an out is an out

Bases loaded, nobody out.....you need a strike out
Bases loaded, one out.....a ground ball leads to a double play

An infield fly works too.
Strikeouts take more pitches than inducing a ground ball or popup. If you just brought in a strikeout specialist for that purpose, that's fine. But if it's your starter you wear him out more.

I think we all know these pitchers aren't "wearing out". Were they wearing out when they were throwing 120 or more pitches regularly before this pitch count era? These shorter starts are just to protect expensive assets now. These guys could easily throw a lot more pitches