I had an interesting conversation this evening.

[daveman]

The repeat posters here value the board, this place is an important aspect of who they are in as much as they feel free to express themselves unencumbered by the restrictions we may face in our real lives.

Anonymity provides a freedom where we can share our views without fear of reprisal. I do not believe a person who discounts USMB by saying "it is only the internet". This place is a portal for those who may have a host of reasons not to discuss these issues in real life. Those reasons may include health issues amongst a variety of other valid circumstances which may encumber the freedom to think, speak and share of themselves.

USMB is far from a zoo, it is a thriving, growing entity which serves an eclectic membership and an even great audience.

Valid points all, and I meant no disrespect to the board.

What I'm saying is I'd like my online persona to be more like my meatspace persona.

 

[daveman]

Those reasons may include health issues amongst a variety of other valid circumstances which may encumber the freedom to think, speak and share of themselves.

That was a good post Connery.

The main reason I enjoy posting is so I can make my point without interruption. That is hard to do in real life, in a conversation between two or more people.

Thanks!!!


Yep, here we can say what we think without the requisite need to make amends. In Real Life someone is always getting their nose out of joint..

Ummm...how many threads have you and the rest of the staff had to move to Badlands? People get their noses out of joint here, too.

 

[daveman]

There is always common ground.

Thank you for a very good post.

Thank you for reading it.

 

[Zona]

There is always common ground.

Thank you for a very good post.

I have found that to be true and it surprises me sometimes. For example, if you are in a movie to tv room in here and talking about shows you like or movie etc you find yourself agreeing with people you cant stand in political rooms.

 

[mudwhistle]

Group hug time.


Strange thing is, I always try to post like daveman pointed out in the OP.

Some people are wrapped up in their hatred and their anonymity allows them to express their animosity without getting their asses whipped.

 

[Jarlaxle]

OK, the love fest is done, can we go back to arguing now?

 

[editec]

I enjoy substantive conversations, doing research to back up my arguments. It can be frustrating, though, having that research immediately dismissed and ridiculed. Hey, I spent TIME doing that! Read it, you jerk! But the jerk doesn't read it, so I'm less likely to spend time doing research the next time. And ultimately, there's no research at all, and there's nothing left but insults.

And the above shows us why, when TROLLISM is tolerated on a board, GENUINE intelligent conversations, discussions and debates become almost impossible.

And making serious and fruitful discussion about these issues impossible is what TROLLS REALLY ARE SEEKING.

A lot of players here aren't interested in the issues, they're interested in EGO GRATIFICATION.

If they can hurt somebody's feels it gives these folks a lift.

 

[Connery]

That was a good post Connery.

The main reason I enjoy posting is so I can make my point without interruption. That is hard to do in real life, in a conversation between two or more people.

Thanks!!!


Yep, here we can say what we think without the requisite need to make amends. In Real Life someone is always getting their nose out of joint..

Ummm...how many threads have you and the rest of the staff had to move to Badlands? People get their noses out of joint here, too.

I suggest you review the Rules as there are many reasons and instances where a thread may get moved any sub-forum.

Moreover, my position was never couched in a Pollyanna-like view of what a occurs in any setting virtual or real, it was based on my observation, experience and environment where I have make most of my arguments, indeed, the order of the day is adversarial and cutthroat.

 

[Ropey]

Those reasons may include health issues amongst a variety of other valid circumstances which may encumber the freedom to think, speak and share of themselves.

That was a good post Connery.

The main reason I enjoy posting is so I can make my point without interruption. That is hard to do in real life, in a conversation between two or more people.

Thanks!!!


Yep, here we can say what we think without the requisite need to make amends. In Real Life someone is always getting their nose out of joint..

Moreover, my position was never couched in a Pollyanna-like view of what a occurs in any setting virtual or real, it was based on my observation, experience and environment where I have make most of my arguments, indeed, the order of the day is adversarial and cutthroat.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Via PM, so I'm not going to reveal any details.

It was with someone with whom I've shared several violent disagreements, and lots of verbal abuse, from both parties.

He'd posted something I thought was interesting, so I PMed him and told him. He then shared something intensely personal, which surprised me -- I wouldn't have thought he'd have opened up to me, of all people.

Turns out -- and this is the interesting part -- he's a real guy, with real problems, real successes, and a real life.

Who knew? I mean, aren't all you people -- me, too, I guess -- just words on a monitor? Well, I don't go away when I turn off my 'puter, but I do when you turn off yours. Hopefully. I'd hate to be stuck there in your living room.

Yeah, I know this is kinda not really news. But we were both lamenting the fact that all too often discussions devolve -- sometimes immediately -- into bad language and insults. Trying to "win", as if they other guy is ever going to say, "You know what? You're right. I never thought about it that way before. Thanks!" And of course, if everyone's just flinging insults, that's NEVER going to happen. "You know what? You're right. I AM a moron! Thanks!" It's easy to forget that there are real people on the other end of the internet tube.

I have changed my mind on at least one issue -- gays serving openly in the military -- due to online conversations. Well, not necessarily conversations about the topic, but conversations with a guy. With a real life. Whose words went away when I turned off my computer, but who continued existing in his real life in his real home, living with his real husband and with his real pride at being a Marine.

And I admit it: I can be a real jerk online. Trying to "win". Being insulting. Using language that I don't use in real life. When I took a break from USMB earlier this year, it seems like I was just a little bit happier with myself. Just a little bit more cheerful. Not catching myself reading a news story and thinking, "Man, I can't wait to post this and show those guys!"

Because frankly, some of you are real jerks online, too. Most of us are, at times. Some more than others, and I do believe I'm one of the some.

I enjoy substantive conversations, doing research to back up my arguments. It can be frustrating, though, having that research immediately dismissed and ridiculed. Hey, I spent TIME doing that! Read it, you jerk! But the jerk doesn't read it, so I'm less likely to spend time doing research the next time. And ultimately, there's no research at all, and there's nothing left but insults.

Can the mods do anything about it? No, I've modded small boards before, and it's a pain in the behind. I can't imagine what it's like running a huge zoo like this place. Admin, mods, you guys have my respect.

Nor should they do anything about it. I've been on boards where behavior is rigidly enforced. And the standards are never applied evenly. There's always a protected class, and whether I was part of it or not, unfair application of standards pisses me off.

No, if anyone is dissatisfied with their behavior, it's up to them and to them alone to change it. Don't like being a jerk? Don't be a jerk. Don't like entering a thread with an insult instead of discussion? Either stay out, or discuss. Don't insult.

Yes, I'm going to try to take my own advice. I want to be a better man than I have been. Gonna give it a shot, at any rate. And part of being a better man is apologizing to anyone I've hurt. I'm sorry. I keep saying that no one can hurt you without your permission, but I don't think everyone knows that.

So, again, if I've hurt you, I'm sorry. I'll try not to do it any more. I'll slip up -- I'm only human, after all -- but I'm going to try.

My anonymous discussion partner asked if we could find any common ground. I think we have. And I want to thank him for giving me the opportunity for some introspection. That's never a bad thing.

G'night, USMB. I'm gonna shut off my 'puter now, and you'll still be wherever you are, real people with real lives. And I'll still be here, a real guy with a real life.

See you tomorrow. A guy trying to be a better man will be logging in as daveman.

Dave and I discussed this last night and having taken the night to think about it, we decided we would share with you that I am "the other guy".

I credit Dave for writing me about one of my posts. I have to say, my first impulse was to shine him on a bit because, for me to reply honestly, I would have to lay open a very personal and difficult part of my life. But, I realized that Dave had taken a huge chance on me and I felt I wanted to return that gesture to him. So, I took the chance and I did talk honestly and openly with him.

Some of you may remember that Jeremiah and I have done the same thing and through some long conversations and trusting each other's motives, we have found a common ground and friendship.

Surely its true of all of us - that we have much more in common than we have differences. Aren't we all just trying to live our lives the best way we know how? Don't we all have families and bills that come due and tragedies and triumphs and ups and down and all the daily detritus of the human condition.

Its way too easy to forget that there is a real person behind all those typed words. Its also very easy to use language that you would never use in real life.

Recently, I've seen posts here that lament the almost total absense of quality conversation, discussion and debate. I have said that I stopped trying to understand others' points of view and seldom bother trying to actually add substantive comments.

While its true that I just don't want to read the foul language and nastiness, a huge part of my withdrawal has been a reaction to a tragic event in my own life. I have so much anger and pain, and I have used this board and my fellow posters as a place to dump it. It has been wrong of me to do that and I sincerely apologize for it.

Moreover, I have realized that instead of geting rid of all the anger, this has fed those flames. For my own mental health, its got to stop.

I don't have any answers but what I know for sure is that no one can take me anyplace I don't want to go. By that, I mean I don't have to call names and use foul language. If I choose that, its no one's fault but my own. By the same token, I cannot control what others do. I can only control myself.

For the reasons I've described, and because I'm glad I opened up to two people whose lives and beliefs are so different from me, I'm turning over a new leaf.

I am taking a personal pledge to behave here just as I would if you people were sitting in my living room. I will continue to openly disagree with others but I will not react with nastiness, name calling and foul language. (I really should leave myself an weasel out in case I fall off the wagon but I have never thrown hot coffee at a visitor sitting in my living room.)

Thank you to Dave and to Jeremiah. I have long believed that the phenomenon of the internet message board is a tiny microcosm that represents what's going on in the real world. Maybe, if we work together, we can pay it forward.

I believe that its worth a try.

 

[Derideo_Te]

To Dave and Luddly,

You have earned my respect for your honesty and openness. Before I came to this forum I was in another where it had degraded to being nothing but trolls, stalkers and insults. I vowed to myself to never go down that path again. Yes, there are also trolls, stalkers and insults to be found here but there are also plenty of good, honest and decent people who come to this forum because they enjoy the dialog and debates. There have been plenty of times that I have been tempted to respond with insults after being insulted and being only human I have probably slipped on occasion. To those people I also apologize for being a jerk.

But it isn't just that one makes mistakes but that one admits them, apologizes if necessary and puts it behind oneself. This is a learning and maturing process. We need to give each other some leeway and above all be respectful of the opinions of others no matter how much we might disagree with them. We won't change their opinion but we should be satisfied that we had the opportunity to express our own. Freedom of speech only gives us the right to say what we want to say. It does not give us the right to stop others from having their say.

One of the hardest things I ever had to do was to stand up for the rights of a racist asshole to express his opinion. I was taking a stand against my own friends who wanted to censor him. The principle is more important than the person or the opinion that is being expressed. I have no doubt whatsoever that we won't agree on things in the future but no matter what I will always uphold your rights to say whatever you want.

We can make the USMB a better place if we work together. Whether we like it or not we are all here together and we need to find solutions that will work for all of us. If we can make this forum a reflection of our better selves perhaps we can make the internet a better place for others too.

Peace.
DT

 

[JohnL.Burke]

I hope this attitude spreads. Even though I take my politics and other personal beliefs seriously I try not to take MYSELF too seriously. I think this is a good starting point in an attempt to center oneself and realize that disagreement is not an insult. Not letting passion turn to anger is not always easy and God knows I've fallen down that rabbit hole more than once. I draw a distinction between people who fall off the courtesy wagon and those who are just trolls trying to start a fight. Luckily, most people I've encountered here are genuine, honest people (who, like me) have gotten carried away at times. It also helps me personally when I realize that I am always right and truly infallible.

 

[koshergrl]

Everybody is a real person, particularly to themselves.

What separates the chaff from the wheat is how they treat, or propose to treat, others. Name calling and shit flinging on the board is a mode of communication...and anyone will maintain in private convo that they are complex people with Really Good Reasons for being who they are...and there's no doubt they really believe they are fully justified in whatever crap philosophy they support and spread.

But the test of humanity isn't in how socially adept they are, or how dearly they hold their own beliefs. It's how their beliefs, applied, affect other people.

Luddly is dishonest as the day is long, and the purpose of his dishonesty is to make a shithole out of the world. I could care less that he's charming and delighful, and REALLY BELIEVES the shit he spews. I could have told you he believes it...well, he believes some of it. Some of it is just a pack of lies meant to promote a culture of death and disease.

So, meh. The devil disguises himself in many ways, but he's still the devil.

 

[Moonglow]

daveman=poster child of the moderate debater, no

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Everybody is a real person, particularly to themselves.

What separates the chaff from the wheat is how they treat, or propose to treat, others. Name calling and shit flinging on the board is a mode of communication...and anyone will maintain in private convo that they are complex people with Really Good Reasons for being who they are...and there's no doubt they really believe they are fully justified in whatever crap philosophy they support and spread.

But the test of humanity isn't in how socially adept they are, or how dearly they hold their own beliefs. It's how their beliefs, applied, affect other people.

Luddly is dishonest as the day is long, and the purpose of his dishonesty is to make a shithole out of the world. I could care less that he's charming and delighful, and REALLY BELIEVES the shit he spews. I could have told you he believes it...well, he believes some of it. Some of it is just a pack of lies meant to promote a culture of death and disease.

So, meh. The devil disguises himself in many ways, but he's still the devil.

Lemme guess ...

You're the first test of my new resolve to treat people the way I would like to be treated.

Just kidding. And, I have no illusions that this might spread to others. Nonetheless, I value the little island of civility Dave, Jeremia and I have made. And, I have enormous respect for those posters who manage to stay civil when mud is being slung in their directions. Respect and admiration and the hope I can become more like that and a lot less like those who spread hate and venom.

Have a nice day koshergirl and I sincerely hope the sun is shining on you today.

 

[koshergrl]

My point is you aren't civil, or honest, in your posts on the open board.

Your private demeanor and communication style is quite different, per daveman. Go figure, you're a hypocrite. Tell us something we didn't know already.

 

[wavingrl]

I thought these little gems fit in this thread. Maybe they can be a reminder that someone is on the other end of that monitor...it isn't just words on a screen.

The folks here have been a great help to me in my times of need. Another board was there during the worst and without them...I don't know how I would have made it where I am now. So I thank both places.

Good quotes.

I've had some good and not so good experiences online. Mostly 'my own issues', as we say. I managed to dump a lot of ideas that never were useful to me and become less defensive. I come by that honestly--for one thing my mother had 2 sisters--very close, in age and lived within minutes of each other their entire lives. They could finish each others thoughts--family gatherings were unusual--eh--we are the kind of people who just 'tell' each other--never listen.

It really is better at times to discuss things with some anonymity. My brother had substance abuse issues and I just could never get the hang of 12 step programs--sometimes expressing negative feelings is a way to manage them.

Wars and related careers--I have zero experience in those areas and it is interesting to gain some insight. Politics---beat it down to a level that makes life bearable.

I read threads more than I respond--try to figure out the POV.

 

[Wolfsister77]

Well, good for you guys-both Luddly and daveman. The OP was a great post. Shows the human side of us all.

If you want to go after political figures or ideas on a board like this, I think that's to be expected. BUT when someone gets into personal attacks then it is really their problem.

I try hard not to engage when someone does that. I see no point to it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Via PM, so I'm not going to reveal any details.

It was with someone with whom I've shared several violent disagreements, and lots of verbal abuse, from both parties.

He'd posted something I thought was interesting, so I PMed him and told him. He then shared something intensely personal, which surprised me -- I wouldn't have thought he'd have opened up to me, of all people.

Turns out -- and this is the interesting part -- he's a real guy, with real problems, real successes, and a real life.

Who knew? I mean, aren't all you people -- me, too, I guess -- just words on a monitor? Well, I don't go away when I turn off my 'puter, but I do when you turn off yours. Hopefully. I'd hate to be stuck there in your living room.

Yeah, I know this is kinda not really news. But we were both lamenting the fact that all too often discussions devolve -- sometimes immediately -- into bad language and insults. Trying to "win", as if they other guy is ever going to say, "You know what? You're right. I never thought about it that way before. Thanks!" And of course, if everyone's just flinging insults, that's NEVER going to happen. "You know what? You're right. I AM a moron! Thanks!" It's easy to forget that there are real people on the other end of the internet tube.

I have changed my mind on at least one issue -- gays serving openly in the military -- due to online conversations. Well, not necessarily conversations about the topic, but conversations with a guy. With a real life. Whose words went away when I turned off my computer, but who continued existing in his real life in his real home, living with his real husband and with his real pride at being a Marine.

And I admit it: I can be a real jerk online. Trying to "win". Being insulting. Using language that I don't use in real life. When I took a break from USMB earlier this year, it seems like I was just a little bit happier with myself. Just a little bit more cheerful. Not catching myself reading a news story and thinking, "Man, I can't wait to post this and show those guys!"

Because frankly, some of you are real jerks online, too. Most of us are, at times. Some more than others, and I do believe I'm one of the some.

I enjoy substantive conversations, doing research to back up my arguments. It can be frustrating, though, having that research immediately dismissed and ridiculed. Hey, I spent TIME doing that! Read it, you jerk! But the jerk doesn't read it, so I'm less likely to spend time doing research the next time. And ultimately, there's no research at all, and there's nothing left but insults.

Can the mods do anything about it? No, I've modded small boards before, and it's a pain in the behind. I can't imagine what it's like running a huge zoo like this place. Admin, mods, you guys have my respect.

Nor should they do anything about it. I've been on boards where behavior is rigidly enforced. And the standards are never applied evenly. There's always a protected class, and whether I was part of it or not, unfair application of standards pisses me off.

No, if anyone is dissatisfied with their behavior, it's up to them and to them alone to change it. Don't like being a jerk? Don't be a jerk. Don't like entering a thread with an insult instead of discussion? Either stay out, or discuss. Don't insult.

Yes, I'm going to try to take my own advice. I want to be a better man than I have been. Gonna give it a shot, at any rate. And part of being a better man is apologizing to anyone I've hurt. I'm sorry. I keep saying that no one can hurt you without your permission, but I don't think everyone knows that.

So, again, if I've hurt you, I'm sorry. I'll try not to do it any more. I'll slip up -- I'm only human, after all -- but I'm going to try.

My anonymous discussion partner asked if we could find any common ground. I think we have. And I want to thank him for giving me the opportunity for some introspection. That's never a bad thing.

G'night, USMB. I'm gonna shut off my 'puter now, and you'll still be wherever you are, real people with real lives. And I'll still be here, a real guy with a real life.

See you tomorrow. A guy trying to be a better man will be logging in as daveman.

Glenn Frey - You Belong To The City

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ueaD22hg8]Glenn Frey - You Belong To The City - HD - YouTube[/ame]

You are a wonderfully gifted poet. In case you didn't know it.

-Jeri

 

[Luddly Neddite]

My point is you aren't civil, or honest, in your posts on the open board.

Your private demeanor and communication style is quite different, per daveman. Go figure, you're a hypocrite. Tell us something we didn't know already.

It occurs to me that maybe I'm not the only one who uses this board as a place to vent pain and anger.