I can't believe they let this happen!

[Immanuel]

Did he or didn't he he was a legal adult and this is personal responsibility. One can live or die by ones actions and should not expect a nanny state to pull them out.

man wants to kill himself he can do that as far as I am concerned.

Following your line of logic, then V.A. mental health services should be done away with for war vets suffering from PTSD and you would not be opposed to them offing themselves by the thousands.
Creep!

You are not following my line of logic very well.

My clues were "personal responsibility", "ones actions" and "nanny state". Those three phrases reeked sarcasm coming from you.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Did he really want to kill himself?

I read that he kept looking back at them. It read almost like he was pleading for them to come save his butt. I have also read that most people who commit suicide or let people think they are trying to do so are actually seeking help/sympathy rather than trying to kill themselves. Maybe he was mentally ill and needed them to save him?

Immie

Did he or didn't he he was a legal adult and this is personal responsibility. One can live or die by ones actions and should not expect a nanny state to pull them out.

man wants to kill himself he can do that as far as I am concerned.

With a couple Trillion dollar budget paid for by tax payers... You'd think an entire 50 states should DEMAND basic public services and our leadership should NOT choose to watch houses burn or watch people drown over money. That's just dumb.

Except that first responders are paid for by state and county not federal. And we sure as heck do not want to let the federal government get their hands on our first responders!

Immie

 

[uscitizen]

Following your line of logic, then V.A. mental health services should be done away with for war vets suffering from PTSD and you would not be opposed to them offing themselves by the thousands.
Creep!

You are not following my line of logic very well.

My clues were "personal responsibility", "ones actions" and "nanny state". Those three phrases reeked sarcasm coming from you.

Immie

Well the nanny state govt thing was sarcasm.
But true. Are we or the govt responsible for our actions?

 

[Valerie]

Did he or didn't he he was a legal adult and this is personal responsibility. One can live or die by ones actions and should not expect a nanny state to pull them out.

man wants to kill himself he can do that as far as I am concerned.

With a couple Trillion dollar budget paid for by tax payers... You'd think an entire 50 states should DEMAND basic public services and our leadership should NOT choose to watch houses burn or watch people drown over money. That's just dumb.

Except that first responders are paid for by state and county not federal. And we sure as heck do not want to let the federal government get their hands on our first responders!

Immie

Our states should demand that federal money for basic public services.

 

[Immanuel]

You are not following my line of logic very well.

My clues were "personal responsibility", "ones actions" and "nanny state". Those three phrases reeked sarcasm coming from you.

Immie

Well the nanny state govt thing was sarcasm.
But true. Are we or the govt responsible for our actions?

And Personal Responsibility was not sarcastic? Come on! Are you starting to sound like a Republican in your old age?

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

With a couple Trillion dollar budget paid for by tax payers... You'd think an entire 50 states should DEMAND basic public services and our leadership should NOT choose to watch houses burn or watch people drown over money. That's just dumb.

Except that first responders are paid for by state and county not federal. And we sure as heck do not want to let the federal government get their hands on our first responders!

Immie

Our states should demand that federal money for basic public services.

I'd have to agree with Governor Scott (R-FL) on this one and tell the feds to keep their money. The federal government needs to reduce spending not add more.

Immie

 

[uscitizen]

My clues were "personal responsibility", "ones actions" and "nanny state". Those three phrases reeked sarcasm coming from you.

Immie

Well the nanny state govt thing was sarcasm.
But true. Are we or the govt responsible for our actions?

And Personal Responsibility was not sarcastic? Come on! Are you starting to sound like a Republican in your old age?

Immie

I have always been right wing on a few views.
Personal responsibility being one of those.
We have many many people asking for help that need it badly thru no fault of their own.
I cannot see focusing/fixating on one person who apparently wanted to kill himslef.
Is his death any more important than one of those who died in the tornadoes? Tsnami? Iraq/afgaistan ?

I just think this is much ado about nothing significant.

 

[Immanuel]

Well the nanny state govt thing was sarcasm.
But true. Are we or the govt responsible for our actions?

And Personal Responsibility was not sarcastic? Come on! Are you starting to sound like a Republican in your old age?

Immie

I have always been right wing on a few views.
Personal responsibility being one of those.
We have many many people asking for help that need it badly thru no fault of their own.
I cannot see focusing/fixating on one person who apparently wanted to kill himslef.
Is his death any more important than one of those who died in the tornadoes? Tsnami? Iraq/afgaistan ?

I just think this is much ado about nothing significant.

Fair enough and no, his life is neither any more important than the lives of those who died in the events you mention nor any less important. Each of those events have received attention.

Also, I do not recall having read that that first responders at any of the tornadoes made no efforts to save those in peril. The fact that I served in the USCGR in that very location and could have been called to that scene if it had happened thirty years ago, bothers me. I cannot imagine first responders (whether qualified or not) not taking action in this case. I feel for those first responders. I wonder what they are going through today thinking "what if I had just done this or that?"

Immie

 

[Flopper]

I can't believe there were no first responders there that had not previously been trained in water rescue. Like they stopped the training only two years ago.

They have been trained but weren't certified.

"Michael D'Orazi, interim fire chief in the city of Alameda, said 57-year-old Raymond Zack's death on Monday was "very regrettable," but said rules had prevented his officers from attempting to rescue the man."

City changes rules after police watch man drown | The Raw Story

I've been trained to save you.....but OOPS!.....I'm not certified. So die MF'er.
This is what we have come to........

Sad, but true

 

[Valerie]

Except that first responders are paid for by state and county not federal. And we sure as heck do not want to let the federal government get their hands on our first responders!

Immie

Our states should demand that federal money for basic public services.

I'd have to agree with Governor Scott (R-FL) on this one and tell the feds to keep their money. The federal government needs to reduce spending not add more.

Immie

I just think it's BASIC if our tax dollars are supposedly doing any good, basic public services is a no brainer for a starting point...

 

[Immanuel]

Our states should demand that federal money for basic public services.

I'd have to agree with Governor Scott (R-FL) on this one and tell the feds to keep their money. The federal government needs to reduce spending not add more.

Immie

I just think it's BASIC if our tax dollars are supposedly doing any good, basic public services is a no brainer for a starting point...

No brainer... but then we have our Congress that promote bridges to nowhere and tax cuts for the rich and famous, and Stimulus bills that stimulate nothing and a health care reform bill that is the first step to socializing medicine and bankrupting this country.

Maybe the Federal Government should fund or help fund our police and fire departments, but would that solve anything? Look what it has done to education!

Immie

 

[Flopper]

I have no issue with it. The guy wanted to kill himself so he wasn't disappointed. Why should any of those first responders risk one or more of their lives to save that jackhole? He got what he deserved.

I wouldn't jump to a judgement that anyone who attempts suicide and succeeds is getting what they deserve. To people who really want to end their own life, suicide represents an answer to an otherwise insoluble problem. 90% of the people that commit suicide have a treatable mental disorder. With proper treatment most can be saved. So no, I don't think a potential suicide deserves to die any more so than a blind man who steps in front of moving vehicle.

 

[Ravi]

I think we will see more and more of things like this as cities across the country are forced to cut budgets and do away with training. You can't hire people and not train them and then expect them to risk their lives.

Then don't hire them, let them volunteer.

How would that make a difference? The training still costs money, and the training is what was cut.

My brother was a firefighter/paramedic and though I doubt he or any of his fellow firefighters would have stood by and watched someone die they still got shafted by budget cuts. They didn't even have the proper safety gear to go into a burning building.

You cannot expect people to risk their lives if there haven't been measures put in place to protect the lives of the saviors.

 

[Lumpy 1]

I think we will see more and more of things like this as cities across the country are forced to cut budgets and do away with training. You can't hire people and not train them and then expect them to risk their lives.

Then don't hire them, let them volunteer.

How would that make a difference? The training still costs money, and the training is what was cut.

My brother was a firefighter/paramedic and though I doubt he or any of his fellow firefighters would have stood by and watched someone die they still got shafted by budget cuts. They didn't even have the proper safety gear to go into a burning building.

You cannot expect people to risk their lives if there haven't been measures put in place to protect the lives of the saviors.

Time to cut the retirement benefits and wages, fire the old fatties that can't cut it... if the taxpayers aren't being served and are left to die because of it...

As I recall from the TV reports he struggled for his life for an hour, kinda sounds like he wanted to live... Not funny, they couldn't find someone to call and save him... Heck.. why not call the Coast Guard... a fisherman with a boat...No brains or resourcefulness from these public employees..they should all be fired and receiving 3 square meals a day in jail..

 

[Big Fitz]

Police and firefighters stood on a California beach and watched as a suicidal man waded into the San Francisco Bay and drowned in the surf.

The body of Raymond Zack was finally pulled from the 54-degree water by a passerby as local fire officials blamed budget cuts for their inability to save the man.

An Alameda police spokesman said officers stayed out of the water because Zack was suicidal and posed a possible threat.

"We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved," said police Lt. Sean Lynch. "It's not a situation of a typical rescue."

Eyewitness Sharon Brunetti told the San Jose Mercury News that she couldn't believe the first responders at the beach stood and watched the man drown.

They let this man drown because of budget cuts and departmental policy?

Surely, one of those men standing there on the beach should have said, "screw the policy, I am not going to stand here and watch that man drown." And there were witnesses as well, why the hell didn't a civilian go in and pull him out?

And the water was too shallow for the Coast Guard 41 footer (I was stationed on YBI) the base that would have been called out for this. I can't believe that they could not get someone on shore and in the water in an hour to save that man.

I don't blame the first responders, but I wonder what they were thinking. Surely they had enough training to do something more than just watch this man die! I can't help but worry that this may haunt them for the rest of their lives.

Immie

You watch. They will ultimately blame this on the rich who would not pay MORE of their "Fair Share"! Ebil capitulizm let that poor man die.

After some of the dirty rotten tricks I'm seeing pulled over the budget here in MN, I won't put it past a single leftist to try this tactic.

 

[chanel]

Decades of social rot in California found their fullest expression on Memorial Day, when firefighters and police officers stood by and allowed a 53-year-old man to slowly drown himself just off the Alameda shore.

No one dipped a toe in the water — the firefighters weren’t trained for ocean rescues, they said, while cops fretted that the man standing neck-deep in the sea might be armed.

“They were there two hours,” said the mother of now-deceased Raymond Zack, who watched her son die. “There were kids playing and police and firefighters standing around. Nobody did a thing.”

The firemen responding to the scene weren’t waiting there assuming someone else would save Zack. They were the ones who had to do the job.

But they milled about and failed their most basic duty because they weren’t supposed to get their feet wet.

The fire department blamed budget cuts that ended sea-rescue training in 2009; department policy explicitly forbade them from saving Zack’s life. And so they followed the city’s corrupt order.

“I can also see it from our firefighters’ perspective,” said Alameda Fire Chief Mike D’Orazi. “They’re standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy.”

That simply shocks the conscience.

Read more: First non-responders - NYPOST.com



Unbelievable.

Merged threads

PixieStix

 

[code1211]

Decades of social rot in California found their fullest expression on Memorial Day, when firefighters and police officers stood by and allowed a 53-year-old man to slowly drown himself just off the Alameda shore.

No one dipped a toe in the water — the firefighters weren’t trained for ocean rescues, they said, while cops fretted that the man standing neck-deep in the sea might be armed.

“They were there two hours,” said the mother of now-deceased Raymond Zack, who watched her son die. “There were kids playing and police and firefighters standing around. Nobody did a thing.”

The firemen responding to the scene weren’t waiting there assuming someone else would save Zack. They were the ones who had to do the job.

But they milled about and failed their most basic duty because they weren’t supposed to get their feet wet.

The fire department blamed budget cuts that ended sea-rescue training in 2009; department policy explicitly forbade them from saving Zack’s life. And so they followed the city’s corrupt order.

“I can also see it from our firefighters’ perspective,” said Alameda Fire Chief Mike D’Orazi. “They’re standing there wanting to do something, but they are handcuffed by policy.”

That simply shocks the conscience.

Read more: First non-responders - NYPOST.com



Unbelievable.

This is the logical culmination of California.

 

[chanel]

Imagine if Zack was an illegal immigrant. There would be riots in CA.

Sadly, perhaps that's what they need to get the policy changed...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Imagine if Zack was an illegal immigrant. There would be riots in CA.

Sadly, perhaps that's what they need to get the policy changed...

Any firefighter that had gone in after him would have been fired. Further any injury they sustained or if they died trying to save him, the Department would not have to pay a dime.

Change the policy. Would you have risk your job, your medical coverage and your life for a man that clearly wanted to die? That probably would have fought if anyone went in after him? The firefighters had no choice. Not sure about the cops.

 

[sparky]

don't most firetrucks carry ropes?