How do I know you're not serious about the gun debate?

[toobfreak]

If you use any of the following terms or language ...

1. Calling a semi-automatic pistol or rifle 'weapon of mass destruction'.

2. You claim right to self-defense and children's lives are mutually exclusive.

3. You try re-writing the text of the 2nd Amendment to your own personal interpretation.

4. You confuse hunting with self-defense.

5. You believe that not having the right to have personal nuclear weapons, artillery, or land mines for self-defense logically extends to personal firearms.

6. Refer to semi-automatic weapons as 'military-grade' or 'machine-guns'.

7. Ever use the term 'assault rifle' to refer to an over the counter firearm.


That kind of emotive language will immediately signal to whomever you're trying to convince on the other side that your agenda is confiscation and you're perfectly willing to ride the coattails of any tragedy you can find to accomplish that.

All I can say is that if the NRA, as an organization devoted to the promotion of gun rights, gun responsibility and the history and sport of using them is responsible for school shootings, they why isn't NASCAR responsible and when will people march on them for the many pile-ups and traffic fatalities on the highway?

 

[Mac1958]

If you use any of the following terms or language ...

1. Calling a semi-automatic pistol or rifle 'weapon of mass destruction'.

2. You claim right to self-defense and children's lives are mutually exclusive.

3. You try re-writing the text of the 2nd Amendment to your own personal interpretation.

4. You confuse hunting with self-defense.

5. You believe that not having the right to have personal nuclear weapons, artillery, or land mines for self-defense logically extends to personal firearms.

6. Refer to semi-automatic weapons as 'military-grade' or 'machine-guns'.

7. Ever use the term 'assault rifle' to refer to an over the counter firearm.


That kind of emotive language will immediately signal to whomever you're trying to convince on the other side that your agenda is confiscation and you're perfectly willing to ride the coattails of any tragedy you can find to accomplish that.

All I can say is that if the NRA, as an organization devoted to the promotion of gun rights, gun responsibility and the history and sport of using them is responsible for school shootings, they why isn't NASCAR responsible and when will people march on them for the many pile-ups and traffic fatalities on the highway?

I don't think most people are saying the NRA is responsible for the shootings.

The anger is mostly at politicians who take large contributions from the NRA and then act accordingly.
.

 

[JoeB131]

2. You claim right to self-defense and children's lives are mutually exclusive.

Here's the problem with that. The gun lobby wants crazy people to have guns. It wouldn't be hard to create a system where law-abiding citizens can own guns after they undergo a thorough background check. Germany has gun ownership, about one gun for every five citizens. What they don't have is gun ownership as a "right", where it becomes incumbant upon the government to show why you shouldn't have a gun, not on you to show why you can be trusted with one.

So when you have a guy like Nikolas Cruz who was able to get a gun despite a lifetime of mental illness and criminal issues, you get pretty much the result we got last week.

3. You try re-writing the text of the 2nd Amendment to your own personal interpretation.

Except that between the writing of the constitution, and Heller in 2010, the interpretation that the Second was about Militias, and the government had a right to regulate weapons, was the accepted interpretation. Even the NRA thought so until the crazies took it over in the 1970's.

6. Refer to semi-automatic weapons as 'military-grade' or 'machine-guns'.

7. Ever use the term 'assault rifle' to refer to an over the counter firearm.

But this is the problem. The AR-15 or the AK were designed for the military. Modifying them so they can't shoot full auto doesn't make them less military. These weapons were designed for a battlefield, not "self-defense".

The real problem here is the Gun Industry. You see, until about 1970's, we had less than 100M guns in the country, most of those simple hunting weapons.

Then Hunting started falling out of favor because, hey, cruelty to animals isn't really a sport. That's when the gun industry decided that it's key target market was 'Crazy people who are scared". And the best way to keep them all scared? Make sure that criminals and crazy people have easy access to guns, too!

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

didn’t take long for this conversation to take a sewer dive

The left is hell bent on eliminating the 2nd. Mac likes to believe both sides are morally equivalent and the best place is the middle of the road, though i think he leans right, he just needs courage.

 

[Mac1958]

didn’t take long for this conversation to take a sewer dive

The left is hell bent on eliminating the 2nd. Mac likes to believe both sides are morally equivalent and the best place is the middle of the road.

There's that straw man I talked about earlier.

Nothing gets fixed until we can think and communicate honestly and independently.
.

 

[JoeB131]

All I can say is that if the NRA, as an organization devoted to the promotion of gun rights, gun responsibility and the history and sport of using them is responsible for school shootings, they why isn't NASCAR responsible and when will people march on them for the many pile-ups and traffic fatalities on the highway?

That's about the most idiotic thing you've said yet.

NASCAR isn't out there lobbying congress to make sure that every driver has access to a souped up custom vehicle able to exceed the speed limit.

(I could also argue, they should stop calling themselves the National Association of STOCK CAR AUTO Racing, because they don't use stock car autos, they use custom made, souped up vehicles specifically designed for racing)

Nor is the Auto Industry paying NASCAR to lobby congress to prevent more traffic and auto safety regulations. In fact, the Auto industry has decided that making their cars safer is actually a selling point, which is why they happily show those commercials with the family boasting how they survived when a truck turned their Subaru into scrap metal.

The Gun Industry, however, has decided their key market is the 3% of the population that owns 50% of the guns, and the best way to keep them scared is to make sure that criminals and crazy people can get guns, too. Oh, yeah, and screaming at the top of their lungs, OBAMA WANTS TO CONFISCATE YOUR GUNS when he proposes even the most modest gun control laws.

 

[JoeB131]

The left is hell bent on eliminating the 2nd. Mac likes to believe both sides are morally equivalent and the best place is the middle of the road, though i think he leans right, he just needs courage.

Naw, what Mac needs to do is admit that his Islamophobic, homophobic bullshit puts him at home with the right, and he'd be happier there.

But the second amendment is about militias. Except we don't need militias anymore, we have professional armies and police forces now.

 

[toobfreak]

If you use any of the following terms or language ...

That kind of emotive language will immediately signal to whomever you're trying to convince on the other side that your agenda is confiscation and you're perfectly willing to ride the coattails of any tragedy you can find to accomplish that.

All I can say is that if the NRA, as an organization devoted to the promotion of gun rights, gun responsibility and the history and sport of using them is responsible for school shootings, they why isn't NASCAR responsible and when will people march on them for the many pile-ups and traffic fatalities on the highway?

I don't think most people are saying the NRA is responsible for the shootings.

Only the politicians looking for votes and the political activists looking to press their personal agendas.
Mayor of Dallas just told the NRA to take their convention somewhere else.

 

[JoeB131]

Once again, I've triggered opposite sides of the same coin, on the same thread.

Thanks guys, as always, for illustrating my sig.

You mean everyone hates you because you are a pompous ass?

Yes. Yes, they do. But it really doesn't mean you've won any arguments.

It just means you are good at trolling.

 

[toobfreak]

All I can say is that if the NRA, as an organization devoted to the promotion of gun rights, gun responsibility and the history and sport of using them is responsible for school shootings, they why isn't NASCAR responsible and when will people march on them for the many pile-ups and traffic fatalities on the highway?

That's about the most idiotic thing you've said yet.

Thanks. If you think it was so stupid, then I know it must be pretty damn close to the absolute truth!

 

[JoeB131]

Only the politicians looking for votes and the political activists looking to press their personal agendas.
Mayor of Dallas just told the NRA to take their convention somewhere else.

That's awesome. When we start treating the NRA for the hate group that it is, maybe they'll modify their awful behavior.

My worry is that what will always happen, though. That in a few weeks, our absolute horror over what happened in Florida will subside, until the next outrage. and the next one. And the next one.

Because even though the gun nuts are only 3% of the population, the 78% of us who don't own guns don't have the wherewithal to push this issue for long.

 

[JoeB131]

Thank. If you think it was so stupid, then I know it must be pretty damn close to the absolute truth!

No, I gave a long explanation of why it was stupid, that you edited out and didn't answer because you knew you couldn't.

 

[toobfreak]

Thank. If you think it was so stupid, then I know it must be pretty damn close to the absolute truth!

No, I gave a long explanation of why it was stupid, that you edited out and didn't answer because you knew you couldn't.

Not worth the time wasted on idiots like you.

 

[toobfreak]

Only the politicians looking for votes and the political activists looking to press their personal agendas.
Mayor of Dallas just told the NRA to take their convention somewhere else.

When we start treating the NRA for the hate group that it is, maybe they'll modify their awful behavior.

You're an idiot who has never even talked to the NRA and doesn't know the first thing about them. WHY DON'T YOU CALL UP THEIR NUMBER AND TELL THEM YOU THINK THEY ARE A HATE GROUP PROMOTING SCHOOL DEATHS? Then report back to us. 1-800-672-3888

 

[JoeB131]

Not worth the time wasted on idiots like you.

I know, you'd just dig yourself in deeper with dumb analogies.

You're an idiot who has never even talked to the NRA and doesn't know the first thing about them. WHY DON'T YOU CALL UP THEIR NUMBER AND TELL THEM YOU THINK THEY ARE A HATE GROUP PROMOTING SCHOOL DEATHS? Then report back to us. 1-800-672-3888

I'm sure whatever tool they have answering the phone would just hang up on me when I did. I'm not interested in talking to the National Rampage Association. This is the point where we shame it, where every time one of their spokescreatures show up, we counter with pictures of dead kids....

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

I wonder about this on pretty much every topic. The answer? This is the way we communicate now.

By making points strongly? Um, yeah. That's how we communicate when 17 kids are slaughtered by a crazy person who never should have gotten his hands on a weapon. Not much else seems to get through.

And for the record, it's clear that we're not serious about really dealing with our gun issue, because still no one is talking about a popular culture that is in decay and CLEARLY contributing to the violence. Movies, video games, music, teevee, the internet and (probably most important) a willingness to turn a blind eye to it all and pretend there's nothing there.

Here's the problem with that argument. The Japanese have the same movies, video games, TV, internet that we do. In fact, if you want to take a ride on a crazy train, you should watch some absolutely crazy Japanese movies with their comical, over the top violence.



But what the Japanese don't have? They don't let their citizens have guns. And they have 11 gun homicides a year compared to our 11,000.

1. Japan population versus ours will tell you we have more deaths.

2. Japan is a Island Nation which can control the import of firearms where the U.S. has Fifty States plus two countries bordering it.

3. Japan is not a melting pot society and is more like Norway where tradition in part of their culture where as America is a melting pot for the world.

4. Japan is not split into Fifty States with differing laws and can have a system that can streamline information to other parts of Japan.

( I actually know for a fact Some States here in the U.S. would not look into another State criminal records back when I was younger when doing a background check )

5. America Constitution is the biggest problem for those like you and Japan does not offer the same freedoms and protection, so they can deny their citizens where those like you have to get the House, Senate, The President and a Super Majority of the States to change the Constitution which will never happen.

So as you attempt to compare the two societies they are Apples and Oranges and no Japanese nor Norwegian societies would work here seeing America is the third largest populated country in the world with Fifty States and is a damn melting pot!

I know you will disagree but when you have a melting pot society like America has, well you will have problems...

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Not worth the time wasted on idiots like you.

I know, you'd just dig yourself in deeper with dumb analogies.

You're an idiot who has never even talked to the NRA and doesn't know the first thing about them. WHY DON'T YOU CALL UP THEIR NUMBER AND TELL THEM YOU THINK THEY ARE A HATE GROUP PROMOTING SCHOOL DEATHS? Then report back to us. 1-800-672-3888

I'm sure whatever tool they have answering the phone would just hang up on me when I did. I'm not interested in talking to the National Rampage Association. This is the point where we shame it, where every time one of their spokescreatures show up, we counter with pictures of dead kids....

So you do not want to debate but instead dictate...

The fact is you are one of those that want to tell society what they should think and listening to the opinions of others is not allow unless it support your opinion.

I am pretty sure you are one of those that believe the No-Fly list is a great idea to deny someone their constitutional right while never realizing that same list once had Ted Kennedy on it and is hard as hell to get removed from, and is easy to get on.

So tell me what law do you believe criminals will obey and how much of Big Brother do you need to feel safe daily?

 

[JoeB131]

So as you attempt to compare the two societies they are Apples and Oranges and no Japanese nor Norwegian societies would work here seeing America is the third largest populated country in the world with Fifty States and is a damn melting pot!

I know you will disagree but when you have a melting pot society like America has, well you will have problems...

Here's the main difference.

America lets average citizens own guns.

Japan has banned private gun ownership since the Meiji Restoration (when they got sick of people raising private armies).

The Japanese are more like us that we care to admit. The should be, they've spent the last 100+ years trying to be us.

To try to blame melting pots or video games for the problem is just silly.

We have a problem because we've decided that gun ownership is a "right" like voting or freedom of speech, which means that we've put a very high hurdle into taking that "right" away.

And we get exactly the result we got on Feb. 14. Someone who everyone agrees now should not have been able to get a gun was able to get several, and killed a lot of people.

 

[petro]

If you use any of the following terms or language ...

1. Calling a semi-automatic pistol or rifle 'weapon of mass destruction'.

2. You claim right to self-defense and children's lives are mutually exclusive.

3. You try re-writing the text of the 2nd Amendment to your own personal interpretation.

4. You confuse hunting with self-defense.

5. You believe that not having the right to have personal nuclear weapons, artillery, or land mines for self-defense logically extends to personal firearms.

6. Refer to semi-automatic weapons as 'military-grade' or 'machine-guns'.

7. Ever use the term 'assault rifle' to refer to an over the counter firearm.


That kind of emotive language will immediately signal to whomever you're trying to convince on the other side that your agenda is confiscation and you're perfectly willing to ride the coattails of any tragedy you can find to accomplish that.

I wonder about this on pretty much every topic. The answer? This is the way we communicate now.

Hyperbole, straw man arguments, personal insults, name-calling, distortion, deflection and outright lies.

On pretty much any topic. This is how we do it.

I wonder why so little is getting done. Gosh!
.

You, Sir, are worse than Hitler.

And for the record, it's clear that we're not serious about really dealing with our gun issue, because still no one is talking about a popular culture that is in decay and CLEARLY contributing to the violence. Movies, video games, music, teevee, the internet and (probably most important) a willingness to turn a blind eye to it all and pretend there's nothing there.

I would probably be more comfortable with some kind of increased gun regulation than you; but it's obvious that the press sees a lot of political advantage here and is running with the meme that will most effectively advance its political agenda.
.

Tried to bring up the cultural issue and media in this thread.
Breaking News - Arrest in Orono, Mn. Social media threat against school.
The silence is very telling.
People really can't handle the "why" they claim to want answers to. The media is manipulating the discussion to one issue, that it's just guns.
Edit to add, there are at least 20 threads running on the shooting and guns.

 

[JoeB131]

So you do not want to debate but instead dictate...

The fact is you are one of those that want to tell society what they should think and listening to the opinions of others is not allow unless it support your opinion.

I am pretty sure you are one of those that believe the No-Fly list is a great idea to deny someone their constitutional right while never realizing that same list once had Ted Kennedy on it and is hard as hell to get removed from, and is easy to get on.

So tell me what law do you believe criminals will obey and how much of Big Brother do you need to feel safe daily?

Yawn, guy, I don't have to worry about the government shooting me as i go about my daily business. I'm white.

(Of course, people of color shouldn't have to deal with that bullshit, either, but that's another discussion.)

I do worry some nut is going to shoot up my workplace or shopping mall or a movie I happen to be seeing because that kind of stuff happens all too often in this country.

The No Fly list was a great idea! 17 years since 9/11, we haven't had another hijacking since then, have we? It doesn't happen because the airline industry stopped fighting security measures. They actually realized one disaster was worse for them than the profits they'd lose making sure it didn't happen.

The gun industry, on the other hand, thrives on tragedy. The more gun crime you have, the more that 3% of people compensating for tiny peckers want more guns. They have no interest in reducing it.