How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?

[kurtsprincess]

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted. American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant. We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end. Just as no other fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida. It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true. And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US? None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot. Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do. This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here. And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up. The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities. In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.

What if the borders were secured and illegals could not come to America? Perhaps they would take that desire, energy and quest for a better life and effect change in their own countries. I think that helping illegals does nothing more than keep them imprisoned in their own poverty. When their backs are against the wall regarding corruption and danger in their own country, instead of standing up and fighting for a better society, they run.

I would rather help them rid their country of corruption than to lower our standards for legal immigration.

 

[Bullfighter]

BTW, whatever second rate nation your people crawled away from is welcome to have YOU back

Seeing as I haven't returned and have no intention of doing so

My family left those nations to come here for good reasons. I remember those reasons and seek to preserve and further improve the great nation to which they came for a better life. That's what a real American is. A real American remembers what America is and why people came here and why people continue to come here. A real American seeks to preserve this nation and ensure that it remains the greatest nation on Earth- and you can't do that if you stand against national sovereignty and seek to undermine it. You, as someone who despises our sovereignty and seeks to undermine it, are an enemy of this nation and a traitor.

What a joke. So YOUR family's reasons for emigrating here are sufficient but no one's in Mexico are? I don't know which part of your post annoys me more. If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what causes illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.

Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.

Step Two: secure the borders.

Step Three: find the US employers who knowingly or negligently hire illegal aliens, prosecute them, throw them in prison and confiscate their businesses.

Step Four: lean on Mexico to address the needs of its own poor. Repeal NAFTA. Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever). Send in troops if needed to keep the peace. Send foreign aid, to build factories and help re-establish a middle class. Legalize drugs to remove the ginormous profits now commanded by the drug cartels.

One and Two are just plain common sense.

Three won't happen because hispanics hire the Mexicans more than any other employer.

Four won't happen because Washington does not have the nerve to declare war against Mexico but will bomb virtually any Muslim country because they harbor "terrorists" that do almost zero damage to Americans.

And 9-11 was all about getting the US Army away from the border and out of the country. Terrorism was just a pretext.

 

[tsalkonocii]

BTW, whatever second rate nation your people crawled away from is welcome to have YOU back

Seeing as I haven't returned and have no intention of doing so

My family left those nations to come here for good reasons. I remember those reasons and seek to preserve and further improve the great nation to which they came for a better life. That's what a real American is. A real American remembers what America is and why people came here and why people continue to come here. A real American seeks to preserve this nation and ensure that it remains the greatest nation on Earth- and you can't do that if you stand against national sovereignty and seek to undermine it. You, as someone who despises our sovereignty and seeks to undermine it, are an enemy of this nation and a traitor.

What a joke. So YOUR family's reasons for emigrating here are sufficient but no one's in Mexico are?

Do you know what you're babbling about, because nobody else can figure it out.

I don't know which part of your post annoys me more. If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what causes illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.

It caused by criminals who don't want to get in line and come here legally


it's as simple as that

plenty of people come form mexico the legal way, son don't try to act like they can't if they want to

Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.

yet you refuse to enforce our borders and you attack those who want to do so

Step Two: secure the borders.

yet you attack me and others who propose just that

Step Three: find the US employers who knowingly or negligently hire illegal aliens, prosecute them, throw them in prison and confiscate their businesses.

you attack people who support exactly that

Step Four: lean on Mexico to address the needs of its own poor. Repeal NAFTA.

as I said, only mexicans can fix mexico


you attacked me for saying that, so don't try to turn around and claim the very positions you've been attacking repeatedly

Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever). Send in troops if needed to keep the peace.

so now you support invading mexico?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Count Dracula
Three very simple words will end this problem with illegal aliens. LOCK AND LOAD.

Here's another option, Anglo from Hell...

Get your white ass out of the US occupied Mexican territories while you still have it...

You lost every last one of those wars, remember?

Dude, you and Dracula are screwed in the head... Get a shrink...

These two cretins, imbeciles are openly, shamelessly advocating the killing of illegal mexicans in cold blood. I support the right of America to expel illegals but when I see mentally deranged individuals like you two I almost wish the country drowned in an ocean of illegal mexicans... It serves nazi Anglos like you well.

 

[tsalkonocii]

It's not cold blood. It's defending the nation from attack, same as shooting a man on a plane with a bomb. We can only assume they are so intent on evading the law and refusing to cross legally because they are.,in fact, serial rapists, coyotes, or terrorists.

Border patrol has too often been caught un or ill-armed. It's time to get serious about our sovereignty.

For the record, I'm neither a Nazi nor an Anglo- which is a near impossible combination anyway, since the Nazis wanted a Nordic super race (despite most Germans being primarily Alpine) and the Angles, like the Jutes didn't quite fit the bill. They were more like close cousins to the true Nords/Aryans (Who'd be more along the lines of the Scandinavians).

My ancestors, depending on the branch of my family you want to deal with, never dealt with the Anglos, frought with them all the time, or raped and pillaged them repeatedly and took over their lands for a while. At point were they ever really friends until after my family had left (ion all instances), although peace had been established.

 

[Madeline]

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted. American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant. We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end. Just as no other fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida. It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true. And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US? None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot. Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do. This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here. And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up. The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities. In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.

What if the borders were secured and illegals could not come to America? Perhaps they would take that desire, energy and quest for a better life and effect change in their own countries. I think that helping illegals does nothing more than keep them imprisoned in their own poverty. When their backs are against the wall regarding corruption and danger in their own country, instead of standing up and fighting for a better society, they run.

I would rather help them rid their country of corruption than to lower our standards for legal immigration.

kurtsprincess, if your folks had not been EXACTLY the sorts of cowards you accuse poor Mexicans of being, you would not be in the US yourself.

Neither would I.

I have no complaint with your notions of closing the borders (difficult, probably not impossible) or keeping existing laws about illegal immigration. I haven't any desire to "lower" them.

But I cannot understand your belief that forcing Mexico to deal with its own people in a more just fashion is somehow going to increase illegal immigration.

 

[syrenn]

syrenn, Americans have to eat. They will have to pay MUCH more for food if the illegals are barred from employment in US Big Agriculture. I think the impact could be reduced if the US quit paying price supports and giving tax discounts to the industry, but overall I think prices would rise. (I think the truth is no one really knows what would happened.) It's the price supports and tax discounts that IMO will affect taxpayers -- but not in a bad way.

Agreed. AND? I am more then willing to pay more to have legal citizens working. ARE YOU?

AND again what does any of this have to do with "solving" the illegal immigration problem?

I am in favor of the arrest and deportation of illegals. But if they are found at a workplace, I'm in favor of mandated prison terms for the employers -- along with tremendous, confiscatory fines. I'd deport the damned traitors if I could, but that is unconstitutional.

So am I. I want legal workers being paid legal wages. I want employers who make this country attractive to illegals prosecuted for breaking the law and hiring illegals.

Mexico is a difficult but not insoluable problem and the very FIRST thing Americans need to do to halt illegal immigration is demand that laws against employment and other forms of profiteering on illegals be strictly enforced. Just know that if that actually happened, there would be a tremendous impact on our economy....the fate of the US is linked to the fate of Mexico, whether we like it or not.

NO SHIT. Then if you agree that we need to HALT illegal immigration why are you going on and on and talking in circles about 10 different subjects that have nothing to do with your OP?

GREAT! I don't care if the price of things goes up.I care that this country is being invaded by illegals FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD! Get over the mexican thing you got going. That seems to be your fear? And you seem to make a case that you want oppressed illegal workers slaving away so you can have sugar for a dollar.

Really I would think it is the other way around. mexicos fate is linked to us. If mexico goes down if flames it wont matter to us. However if we go down in flames it will mean a GREAT deal to mexico.

 

[Madeline]

Mexicans enter the US illegally for two reasons: conditions at home have become desperate and conditions in the US appear to be attractive. When my folks decided to leave Scotland, they did not fetch up in Jordan. Or China. Or Vietnam...they went where they believed things would be better.

To solve the problem of illegal immigration we have to end the employment opportunities these folks find here so easily AND address the conditions that are driving them out of their home to begin with. US employers that hire illegals are basically bribing people to break the law and show no regard for the communities that suffer because of their greed.

And yes, I'd pay the freight for food harvested and prepared by workers paid a decent wage and given decent working conditions. I do not need another cesar chicken salad so badly anyone has to accept slave wages to deliver it to me.

 

[syrenn]

What a joke. So YOUR family's reasons for emigrating here are sufficient but no one's in Mexico are? I don't know which part of your post annoys me more. If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what causes illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.

Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.

Step Two: secure the borders.

Step Three: find the US employers who knowingly or negligently hire illegal aliens, prosecute them, throw them in prison and confiscate their businesses.

You were doing just fine and staying to one idea up until the last paragraph.

Step Four: lean on Mexico to address the needs of its own poor.

Why should we lean on him when we have our own poor to worry about? Its their country and they can do what they want.

Repeal NAFTA.

NO SHIT!

Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever).

And why should we be so arrogant to "give" any other leader bench marks to meet? Invade, Why? They are invading US if you haven't noticed. Crimes agains the us? That is what every illegal is doing. How about we arrest them and send them back home?

Send in troops if needed to keep the peace.

Let them keep their own peace. Dont you think we are involved in enough "wars" already? Dont you think we are sticking our noses in far to many peoples business and it is now? Why should we add mexico to the list?

Send foreign aid, to build factories and help re-establish a middle class.

We already DO send mexico aid. We already do build factories their STEALING American jobs. Its call outsourcing. Tell me why should we establish a middle class in a foreign country when the middle class in THIS country is suffering?

Legalize drugs to remove the ginormous profits now commanded by the drug cartels.

Are you suggesting that EVERY illegal here is somehow involved in the drug trad? If not then legalizing drugs has NOTHING to do with the illegal immigration problem.

 

[kurtsprincess]

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted. American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant. We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end. Just as no other fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida. It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true. And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US? None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot. Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do. This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here. And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up. The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities. In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.

What if the borders were secured and illegals could not come to America? Perhaps they would take that desire, energy and quest for a better life and effect change in their own countries. I think that helping illegals does nothing more than keep them imprisoned in their own poverty. When their backs are against the wall regarding corruption and danger in their own country, instead of standing up and fighting for a better society, they run.

I would rather help them rid their country of corruption than to lower our standards for legal immigration.

kurtsprincess, if your folks had not been EXACTLY the sorts of cowards you accuse poor Mexicans of being, you would not be in the US yourself.

Neither would I.

I have no complaint with your notions of closing the borders (difficult, probably not impossible) or keeping existing laws about illegal immigration. I haven't any desire to "lower" them.

But I cannot understand your belief that forcing Mexico to deal with its own people in a more just fashion is somehow going to increase illegal immigration.

First ... I am not the decendant of an immigrant. We did fight ... we lost ... were moved to reservations. My family decided to assimilate ... although we do have a lot of criminals in our ancestory, most of us have been successful.

As for forcing Mexico to deal with their own people ..... how is it more of an American responsibility than a Mexican one?

And, for the record .... I did not mention Mexico in my post. You made that assumption because that is where your focus is. My focus is on all illegals who come here to escape their own miserable countries.....all of them....and a good portion of them are from South America not just Central America.

 

[Madeline]

syrenn wrote in part:

We already DO send mexico aid. We already do build factories their STEALING American jobs. Its call outsourcing. Tell me why should we establish a middle class in a foreign country when the middle class in THIS country is suffering?

syrenn, have you ever dialed a call center and had a Mexican answer? I'm guessing no. Those jobs went to India and other Asian or Caribbean nations, not to our neighbor. One reason the middle class in this country is suffering is because there is almost no middle class in Mexico.

Can you explain to me exactly how you think this isolationist policy you are promoting is going to work? You seem to oppose punishing American employers with enough force to compel them to stop hiring illegals. You seem to oppose any use of force in Mexico. In short, you seem to be supporting the status quo, which has led us all to this miserable place.

How is more of the same going to change things for the better -- for any of us?

 

[Madeline]

What if the borders were secured and illegals could not come to America? Perhaps they would take that desire, energy and quest for a better life and effect change in their own countries. I think that helping illegals does nothing more than keep them imprisoned in their own poverty. When their backs are against the wall regarding corruption and danger in their own country, instead of standing up and fighting for a better society, they run.

I would rather help them rid their country of corruption than to lower our standards for legal immigration.

kurtsprincess, if your folks had not been EXACTLY the sorts of cowards you accuse poor Mexicans of being, you would not be in the US yourself.

Neither would I.

I have no complaint with your notions of closing the borders (difficult, probably not impossible) or keeping existing laws about illegal immigration. I haven't any desire to "lower" them.

But I cannot understand your belief that forcing Mexico to deal with its own people in a more just fashion is somehow going to increase illegal immigration.

First ... I am not the decendant of an immigrant. We did fight ... we lost ... were moved to reservations. My family decided to assimilate ... although we do have a lot of criminals in our ancestory, most of us have been successful.

As for forcing Mexico to deal with their own people ..... how is it more of an American responsibility than a Mexican one?

And, for the record .... I did not mention Mexico in my post. You made that assumption because that is where your focus is. My focus is on all illegals who come here to escape their own miserable countries.....all of them....and a good portion of them are from South America not just Central America.

Well, my apologies for assuming that you are non-Native, kurtsprincess. I did not deliberately mean to offend.

I am no Latin American political scientist -- I barely know what goes on in Mexico. I have no idea how many illegals are here from other nations, but I'd guess most illegals are from Mexico.

I don't think straightening out Mexico is "more" an American responsiblity -- I just think we have a stake in wider social justice in Mexico that is almost as high as any Mexican's.

 

[syrenn]

First off how about you answer up for some of your statements instead of a circle jerk or every changing premise questions. You continually say shit and then when called on it you conveniently just ask a new slurry of questions.

syrenn, have you ever dialed a call center and had a Mexican answer? I'm guessing no. Those jobs went to India and other Asian or Caribbean nations, not to our neighbor. One reason the middle class in this country is suffering is because there is almost no middle class in Mexico.

And do you have a problem with outsourcing jobs to countries other then mexico. How about we stop outsourcing and keep the jobs in the US. Not all jobs that are outsourced are call centers. Ever hear of the automobile industry moving manufacturing jobs to mexico?

Wrong. The middle class HERE is not suffering because of a lack of a middle class in mexico. What in the world does any of this have to do with

solving the immigration problem?

Can you explain to me exactly how you think this isolationist policy you are promoting is going to work? You seem to oppose punishing American employers with enough force to compel them to stop hiring illegals. You seem to oppose any use of force in Mexico. In short, you seem to be supporting the status quo, which has led us all to this miserable place.

Who ever said ANYTHING about isolationism? Where so i EVER say that employers here in the US should NOT be punished for hiring illegals? I want them jailed and fined into oblivion so that the mere thought of hiring an illegal will be the farthest thing from their minds. Yes i oppose the US forcing mexico into anything, why should we?

Where do you get the idea that i support any status quo? I am supporting stopping illegal immigration. What are you supporting?

How is more of the same going to change things for the better -- for any of us?

Right, lets try something different. Force the illegal back home. And get ofF of this mexican bullshit you have stuck in your head. FORCE ALL ILLEGALS BACK TO WHERE EVERY IT IS THEY CAME FROM! How about that for change?

 

[Madeline]

Yes, I disapprove -- condemn -- outsourcing jobs to other nations. It happened partially because we sat back while Republicans passed tax discount after tax discount to make the decision to move factories and other employment opportunities out of America and away from our minimum wage laws, etc. It's despicable.

If Mexico had a growing middle class, its citizens would see opportunities in their homeland and would not emigrate here, legally or otherwise.

As for punishing US employers that hire illegals, I favor it -- violently. I'm not sure what your position is. Care to state it again?

I'm not "on a Mexican thing". We HAVE a Mexican illegal immigration problem. But yes, I favor deporting anyone who is here illegally -- and that includes anyone who has overstayed a visa.

 

[syrenn]

Yes, I disapprove -- condemn -- outsourcing jobs to other nations. It happened partially because we sat back while Republicans passed tax discount after tax discount to make the decision to move factories and other employment opportunities out of America and away from our minimum wage laws, etc. It's despicable.

So again what does outsourcing have anything to do with solving the illegal immigration problem? As far as i am concerned outsourcing is a problem for America as we are the ones loosing jobs to other countries.

If Mexico had a growing middle class, its citizens would see opportunities in their homeland and would not emigrate here, legally or otherwise.

Why should we care about mexican middle class or building a mexican middle class. MEXICANS ARE NOT THE ONLY ILLEGALS ENTERING THIS COUNTRY! Get over the mexican thing. If we stop allowing mexican citizens into this country illegaly they MAY try and fix their own problems instead of becoming one our ours.

As for punishing US employers that hire illegals, I favor it -- violently. I'm not sure what your position is. Care to state it again?

Care to read my posts?

I'm not "on a Mexican thing". We HAVE a Mexican illegal immigration problem. But yes, I favor deporting anyone who is here illegally -- and that includes anyone who has overstayed a visa.

We have an illegal problem. Period. Stop harping on the mexicans. Stop harping on fixing mexico as a solution to illegal immigration. Fixing mexico is not our problem. Fixing America is our problem. The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.

 

[keee keee]

one word BOUNTIES. let the unemployed you know the ones outplaced because of these criminals. turn them in and get a reward. these people would be gone quickly, leaving tons of jobs which legal American unemployed could use!!!!!!

 

[keee keee]

once they learned they are wanted they would flee like rats on a sinking ship!!!! Adios amego!!!! you remember how you got here just do the same but in reverse!!!! and don't let the gate hit you

 

[Madeline]

syrenn wrote in part:

The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.

I see. Your POV is that we take a hard line, export all illegals and somehow that will magically solve the problem. Lemme ask you syrenn, if your neighbors are starving while you live high on the hog, will their desire to burgal you ever end? Or will their efforts be ceaseless until they get fed?

 

[syrenn]

syrenn wrote in part:

The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.

I see. Your POV is that we take a hard line, export all illegals and somehow that will magically solve the problem. Lemme ask you syrenn, if your neighbors are starving while you live high on the hog, will their desire to burgal you ever end? Or will their efforts be ceaseless until they get fed?

If my neighbors robed my home, if anyone tried to rob my home I generally shoot to kill. I don't care what their reasons are. If you want something ASK for it don't steal it as your "have not's rights" If I choose to help my neighbor that is MY choice.

Same goes for immigrants. ASK to come here legally.

Yes my POV is hard line. And YES that would solve the problem of illegal immigration. Why would it?

 

[kurtsprincess]

kurtsprincess, if your folks had not been EXACTLY the sorts of cowards you accuse poor Mexicans of being, you would not be in the US yourself.

Neither would I.

I have no complaint with your notions of closing the borders (difficult, probably not impossible) or keeping existing laws about illegal immigration. I haven't any desire to "lower" them.

But I cannot understand your belief that forcing Mexico to deal with its own people in a more just fashion is somehow going to increase illegal immigration.

First ... I am not the decendant of an immigrant. We did fight ... we lost ... were moved to reservations. My family decided to assimilate ... although we do have a lot of criminals in our ancestory, most of us have been successful.

As for forcing Mexico to deal with their own people ..... how is it more of an American responsibility than a Mexican one?

And, for the record .... I did not mention Mexico in my post. You made that assumption because that is where your focus is. My focus is on all illegals who come here to escape their own miserable countries.....all of them....and a good portion of them are from South America not just Central America.

Well, my apologies for assuming that you are non-Native, kurtsprincess. I did not deliberately mean to offend.

I am no Latin American political scientist -- I barely know what goes on in Mexico. I have no idea how many illegals are here from other nations, but I'd guess most illegals are from Mexico.

I don't think straightening out Mexico is "more" an American responsiblity -- I just think we have a stake in wider social justice in Mexico that is almost as high as any Mexican's.

Apology accepted.

I am not a Latin America political science major either ... however, I've spent most of my life in and around Mexicans. Have you ever worked with migrants Madeline? I have ... most of my life because my family were migrant workers also. My daughter is married to a Mexican, my grandchildren are half Mexican, her mother-in-law is a Mexican citizen...and she is one of the elites you talk about, but not because she was born into money ... it's because she came here legally, educated herself (dental hygenist) and met her husband (dentist), worked hard and made a fortune and now spends her time and money helping the people from her home village.

They live in Arizona and feel America needs to enforce the current immigration laws and they know how dangerous Mexico is, but don't think it's America's problem to solve.