Honduras did not have a Coup.

[DiveCon]

Let's bring this thing in.

President Zelaya defied the high court and the congress in Honduras. The court issued an order for him to be detained at his home.

Rather than follow the court order, someone decided to ignor it and take him out of the country and drop him off.

Subsequently, the OAS and the UN have declared that Zelaya was removed illegally.

President Obama has had no direct talks with the newly installed Honduran government.

You are either Ignorant or retarded. Obama has stated for the record that the former President must be returned to power and he has stated FOR the Record that he supports the same decision by the OAS.

willy is a fucking idiot
he doesnt understand simple english

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Good news guys; I can't find any english sources for it, but they'll probably be getting to source near you in the following days:

Zelaya and Micheleti are coming over to Costa Rica to try to hammer out some sort of Agreement, with Costa Rican president and Nobel Peace Prize winner Oscar Arias acting as mediator between the two parties. He's pretty good at it, had lots of [successful] experience with this sort of thing back in the 80s, so maybe something good will come of it.

 

[Annie]

Good news guys; I can't find any english sources for it, but they'll probably be getting to source near you in the following days:

Zelaya and Micheleti are coming over to Costa Rica to try to hammer out some sort of Agreement, with Costa Rican president and Nobel Peace Prize winner Oscar Arias acting as mediator between the two parties. He's pretty good at it, had lots of [successful] experience with this sort of thing back in the 80s, so maybe something good will come of it.

Hmmm:

Costa Rican president agrees to mediate Honduran crisis | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | International News

Costa Rican president agrees to mediate Honduran crisis
12:00 AM CDT on Wednesday, July 8, 2009

McClatchy Newspapers, The Associated Press
WASHINGTON – Costa Rican President Oscar Arias will step in to mediate the dispute between the dueling Honduran administrations, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday after meeting with ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya.

"We call upon all parties to refrain from acts of violence and to seek a peaceful, constitutional and lasting solution to the serious divisions in Honduras through dialogue," Clinton said at a news briefing.

She said Zelaya, as well as the politician who took over as Honduran leader, Roberto Micheletti, agreed to Arias' role as mediator. She said Arias would work on the problem from Costa Rica.

Word of the agreement came after Clinton met with Zelaya behind closed doors, as both sides laying claim to the Central American country's government arrived to press their cases in Washington.

The meeting with Clinton signaled greater intervention by the United States, which has joined with leaders across the Americas in trying to bring an end to the crisis that began with a predawn raid June 28.

Zelaya is a wealthy rancher who moved to the left after his election and allied himself with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez. Zelaya is opposed by all branches of the Honduran government as well as the military and has even alienated leaders of his own party.

The de facto government in Honduras maintains that Zelaya's ouster was justified because he was flouting the Honduran Constitution and was seeking to overturn presidential term limits.

A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said one option being considered would be a compromise under which Zelaya would be allowed to return and serve out his remaining six months in office with limited powers. Zelaya would pledge to drop his aspirations for a constitutional change that might allow him to run for another term.

McClatchy Newspapers,

The Associated Press

Results 1 – 10 of about 21,810 for zelaya micheletti costa rica

zelaya micheletti costa rica - Google News

 

[DiveCon]

Good news guys; I can't find any english sources for it, but they'll probably be getting to source near you in the following days:

Zelaya and Micheleti are coming over to Costa Rica to try to hammer out some sort of Agreement, with Costa Rican president and Nobel Peace Prize winner Oscar Arias acting as mediator between the two parties. He's pretty good at it, had lots of [successful] experience with this sort of thing back in the 80s, so maybe something good will come of it.

what i have been reading in the blogosphere, very few hondurans want him back

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Sorry Annie... It's just that I'm in Costa Rica, and I forgot ALL the news results come up in Spanish here. Dunno how to fix it.

Well, yeah, so anyway, there you go. I'll let all your opinions known to them, guys.

 

[rayboyusmc]

neither ortega or chavez would be where they are had castro not supported them

Bullshit. Castro has been a frigging impotent little figure head for communism for years. More of the whining crybabies from the right who haven't got over the fact that America voted the right out of office.

Too bad the congress and supreme court didn't think of this when Bush was in office.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Let's bring this thing in.

President Zelaya defied the high court and the congress in Honduras. The court issued an order for him to be detained at his home.

Rather than follow the court order, someone decided to ignor it and take him out of the country and drop him off.

Subsequently, the OAS and the UN have declared that Zelaya was removed illegally.

President Obama has had no direct talks with the newly installed Honduran government.

You are either Ignorant or retarded. Obama has stated for the record that the former President must be returned to power and he has stated FOR the Record that he supports the same decision by the OAS.

I have already read what Obama had to say about the coup. His position is that it was an illegal coup and that Zelaya hould be returned. He further clarified his position by stating that democracy and the rule of law should be observed.

What has not happened is any kind of demand. Obama has not attempted to make any unilateral demands or insist on anything. He has done what every other leader has done. He has stated his position and largely stepped away from the fray and allowing it to be settled by the people who should settle it. He has actually played it quite well. No one has recognized the new Honduran government. The UN and the OAS are unanamous. No leader in his right mind will support a military coup. Secondly, Obama has closed the door for Chavez and others to blame Obama for the coup.

Obama has next to nothing to do with this. He is not participating in the negotiations between the two parties and certainly has not made any demands or insisted upon anything from the new Honduran government.

You guys are just playing US politics with a matter that the US is barely involved in. Be sure to let me know when Obama actually takes the reigns and starts insisting upon things.

 

[garyd]

Nice going willy you just demonstrated beyond all doubt that Obama hasn't got a clue about the rule of law as Zelaya was the one violating the law not the congress the supreme court and the Military acting on their behalf.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Nice going willy you just demonstrated beyond all doubt that Obama hasn't got a clue about the rule of law as Zelaya was the one violating the law not the congress the supreme court and the Military acting on their behalf.

Actually, they ALL violated the law. That's why this is such a shitty situation.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Nice going willy you just demonstrated beyond all doubt that Obama hasn't got a clue about the rule of law as Zelaya was the one violating the law not the congress the supreme court and the Military acting on their behalf.

It's a Honduran and Central American issue. Obama isn't insisting, demanding or trying to force his opinion on anyone. Which is the absurd claim here.

 

[DiveCon]

Nice going willy you just demonstrated beyond all doubt that Obama hasn't got a clue about the rule of law as Zelaya was the one violating the law not the congress the supreme court and the Military acting on their behalf.

It's a Honduran and Central American issue. Obama isn't insisting, demanding or trying to force his opinion on anyone. Which is the absurd claim here.

you are partly right on the first paert, it IS a Honduran issue, and a Honduran issue ONLY

as to what this administration has said, they said he should be returned to power
that is what the presidential spokesperson said
and he speaks for Obama

 

[Sweet Willy]

Nice going willy you just demonstrated beyond all doubt that Obama hasn't got a clue about the rule of law as Zelaya was the one violating the law not the congress the supreme court and the Military acting on their behalf.

It's a Honduran and Central American issue. Obama isn't insisting, demanding or trying to force his opinion on anyone. Which is the absurd claim here.

you are partly right on the first paert, it IS a Honduran issue, and a Honduran issue ONLY

as to what this administration has said, they said he should be returned to power
that is what the presidential spokesperson said
and he speaks for Obama

Yes. But nothing has been insisted. No demands, no direct talks with Honduras.

And it is not solely a Honduran issue. They fixed that when they flew Zelaya, at gun point, into Costa Rica. Now, had they done the legal thing, followed the order, Zelaya would be under arrest in Honduras right now. And it would be a Honduran issue.

 

[Annie]

Honduras' non-coup - Los Angeles Times

Honduras' non-coup
Under the country's Constitution, the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya was legal.
By Miguel A. Estrada

July 10, 2009

Honduras, the tiny Central American nation, had a change of leaders on June 28. The country's military arrested President Manuel Zelaya -- in his pajamas, he says -- and put him on a plane bound for Costa Rica. A new president, Roberto Micheletti, was appointed. Led by Cuba and Venezuela (Sudan and North Korea were not immediately available), the international community swiftly condemned this "coup."

Something clearly has gone awry with the rule of law in Honduras -- but it is not necessarily what you think. Begin with Zelaya's arrest. The Supreme Court of Honduras, as it turns out, had ordered the military to arrest Zelaya two days earlier. A second order (issued on the same day) authorized the military to enter Zelaya's home to execute the arrest. These orders were issued at the urgent request of the country's attorney general. All the relevant legal documents can be accessed (in Spanish) on the Supreme Court's website. They make for interesting reading.

What you'll learn is that the Honduran Constitution may be amended in any way except three. No amendment can ever change (1) the country's borders, (2) the rules that limit a president to a single four-year term and (3) the requirement that presidential administrations must "succeed one another" in a "republican form of government."

In addition, Article 239 specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection "shall cease forthwith" in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any "infraction" of the succession rules constitutes treason. The rules are so tight because these are terribly serious issues for Honduras, which lived under decades of military rule.

As detailed in the attorney general's complaint, Zelaya is the type of leader who could cause a country to wish for a Richard Nixon. Earlier this year, with only a few months left in his term, he ordered a referendum on whether a new constitutional convention should convene to write a wholly new constitution. Because the only conceivable motive for such a convention would be to amend the un-amendable parts of the existing constitution, it was easy to conclude -- as virtually everyone in Honduras did -- that this was nothing but a backdoor effort to change the rules governing presidential succession. Not unlike what Zelaya's close ally, Hugo Chavez, had done in Venezuela.

It is also worth noting that only referendums approved by a two-thirds vote of the Honduran Congress may be put to the voters. Far from approving Zelaya's proposal, Congress voted that it was illegal.

The attorney general filed suit and secured a court order halting the referendum. Zelaya then announced that the voting would go forward just the same, but it would be called an "opinion survey." The courts again ruled this illegal. Undeterred, Zelaya directed the head of the armed forces, Gen. Romeo Vasquez, to proceed with the "survey" -- and "fired" him when he declined. The Supreme Court ruled the firing illegal and ordered Vasquez reinstated.

Zelaya had the ballots printed in Venezuela, but these were impounded by customs when they were brought back to Honduras. On June 25 -- three days before he was ousted -- Zelaya personally gathered a group of "supporters" and led it to seize the ballots, restating his intent to conduct the "survey" on June 28. That was the breaking point for the attorney general, who immediately sought a warrant from the Supreme Court for Zelaya's arrest on charges of treason, abuse of authority and other crimes. In response, the court ordered Zelaya's arrest by the country's army, which under Article 272 must enforce compliance with the Constitution, particularly with respect to presidential succession. The military executed the court's order on the morning of the proposed survey.

It would seem from this that Zelaya's arrest by the military was legal, and rather well justified to boot. But, unfortunately, the tale did not end there. Rather than taking Zelaya to jail and then to court to face charges, the military shipped him off to Costa Rica. No one has yet explained persuasively why summarily sending Zelaya into exile in this manner was legal, and it most likely wasn't.

This illegality may entitle Zelaya to return to Honduras. But does it require that he be returned to power?
Yet, this is what Obama, Chavez, and Castro are calling for.
No. As noted, Article 239 states clearly that one who behaves as Zelaya did in attempting to change presidential succession ceases immediately to be president. If there were any doubt on that score, the Congress removed it by convening immediately after Zelaya's arrest, condemning his illegal conduct and overwhelmingly voting (122 to 6) to remove him from office. The Congress is led by Zelaya's own Liberal Party (although it is true that Zelaya and his party have grown apart as he has moved left). Because Zelaya's vice president had earlier quit to run in the November elections, the next person in the line of succession was Micheletti, the Liberal leader of Congress. He was named to complete the remaining months of Zelaya's term.

It cannot be right to call this a "coup." Micheletti was lawfully made president by the country's elected Congress. The president is a civilian. The Honduran Congress and courts continue to function as before. The armed forces are under civilian control. The elections scheduled for November are still scheduled for November. Indeed, after reviewing the Constitution and consulting with the Supreme Court, the Congress and the electoral tribunal, respected Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga recently stated that the only possible conclusion is that Zelaya had lawfully been ousted under Article 239 before he was arrested, and that democracy in Honduras continues fully to operate in accordance with law. All Honduran bishops joined Rodriguez in this pronouncement.

True, Zelaya should not have been arbitrarily exiled from his homeland. That, however, does not mean he must be reinstalled as president of Honduras. It merely makes him an indicted private citizen with a meritorious immigration beef against his country.

Miguel A. Estrada is a partner at the Washington office of Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher. A native of Honduras, he was a member of the official U.S. delegation to President Zelaya's 2006 inauguration.

So who is Estrada?

When Democrats derailed a GOP Latino nominee | Washington Examiner

...Born in Honduras, Estrada came to the United States at 17, not knowing a word of English. He learned the language almost instantly, and within a few years was graduating with honors from Columbia University and heading off to Harvard Law School. He clerked for Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, was a prosecutor in New York, and worked at the Justice Department in Washington before entering private practice.

Estrada's nomination for a federal judgeship set off alarm bells among Democrats. There is a group of left-leaning organizations -- People for the American Way, NARAL, the Alliance for Justice, the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, the NAACP, and others -- that work closely with Senate Democrats to promote Democratic judicial nominations and kill Republican ones. They were particularly concerned about Estrada.

In November, 2001, representatives of those groups met with Democratic Senate staff. One of those staffers then wrote a memo to Democratic Sen. Richard Durbin, informing Durbin that the groups wanted to stall Bush nominees, particularly three they had identified as good targets. "They also identified Miguel Estrada as especially dangerous," the staffer added, "because he has a minimal paper trail, he is Latino, and the White House seems to be grooming him for a Supreme Court appointment. They want to hold Estrada off as long as possible."

It was precisely the fact that Estrada was Hispanic that made Democrats and their activist allies want to kill his nomination. They were determined to deny a Republican White House credit, political and otherwise, for putting a first-rate Hispanic nominee on the bench....

 

[Sweet Willy]

Good article Annie. Seems to get to the heart of the problem. I don't think Zelaya should be returned to power and if he is, he should subsequently be arrested and removed, the right way this time. There is an appearance of guilt and he should have the opportunity to defend himself from the charges.

As for what world leaders have said, it is nearly unanamous. While the article cites only three leaders, Obama, Chavez and Castro, nearly everyone has condemed the military removal of Zelaya, that's the OAS and the UN. No sane leader is going to support the use of military force to remove a sitting president. It's pretty simple math.

 

[Annie]

Good article Annie. Seems to get to the heart of the problem. I don't think Zelaya should be returned to power and if he is, he should subsequently be arrested and removed, the right way this time. There is an appearance of guilt and he should have the opportunity to defend himself from the charges.

As for what world leaders have said, it is nearly unanamous. While the article cites only three leaders, Obama, Chavez and Castro, nearly everyone has condemed the military removal of Zelaya, that's the OAS and the UN. No sane leader is going to support the use of military force to remove a sitting president. It's pretty simple math.

Well after I picked myself off the floor, I read the rest of your post. So, the military actually acted for the most part, within the orders of the courts/Congress. They overstepped at getting him out of country, though that seems they were acting more in his favor than not. No? Meaning, keeping him out of jail, though denying the trial.

 

[DiveCon]

It's a Honduran and Central American issue. Obama isn't insisting, demanding or trying to force his opinion on anyone. Which is the absurd claim here.

you are partly right on the first paert, it IS a Honduran issue, and a Honduran issue ONLY

as to what this administration has said, they said he should be returned to power
that is what the presidential spokesperson said
and he speaks for Obama

Yes. But nothing has been insisted. No demands, no direct talks with Honduras.

And it is not solely a Honduran issue. They fixed that when they flew Zelaya, at gun point, into Costa Rica. Now, had they done the legal thing, followed the order, Zelaya would be under arrest in Honduras right now. And it would be a Honduran issue.

you are being diishonest again

WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House says it sees no acceptable solution to the ouster of the president of Honduras other than returning him to power.
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday that State Department officials have been in touch with ousted President Manuel , and the White House is continuing to work on the situation.
Gibbs says that if Zelaya does come to Washington, he'll most likely meet with officials at the State Department.
The White House spokesman says there are no plans to recall the U.S. ambassador to Honduras, because having a representative there is important.

i posted the link to this story WAY back
the bolded shows you are WRONG

 

[Annie]

It's a Honduran and Central American issue. Obama isn't insisting, demanding or trying to force his opinion on anyone. Which is the absurd claim here.

you are partly right on the first paert, it IS a Honduran issue, and a Honduran issue ONLY

as to what this administration has said, they said he should be returned to power
that is what the presidential spokesperson said
and he speaks for Obama

Yes. But nothing has been insisted. No demands, no direct talks with Honduras.

And it is not solely a Honduran issue. They fixed that when they flew Zelaya, at gun point, into Costa Rica. Now, had they done the legal thing, followed the order, Zelaya would be under arrest in Honduras right now. And it would be a Honduran issue.

While Obama is certainly not calling upon the Marines to reinstate Zelaya to power, as you acknowledge, Obama is calling for something unconstitutional, along with Chavez and Castro.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Good article Annie. Seems to get to the heart of the problem. I don't think Zelaya should be returned to power and if he is, he should subsequently be arrested and removed, the right way this time. There is an appearance of guilt and he should have the opportunity to defend himself from the charges.

As for what world leaders have said, it is nearly unanamous. While the article cites only three leaders, Obama, Chavez and Castro, nearly everyone has condemed the military removal of Zelaya, that's the OAS and the UN. No sane leader is going to support the use of military force to remove a sitting president. It's pretty simple math.

Well after I picked myself off the floor, I read the rest of your post. So, the military actually acted for the most part, within the orders of the courts/Congress. They overstepped at getting him out of country, though that seems they were acting more in his favor than not. No? Meaning, keeping him out of jail, though denying the trial.

I'm not sure what the motivation for taking him out of the country was. I read that it was a "last minute" decision but no word on who made that decision. The detainment order was only for detaining him in his home, as I undersatnd. A kind of house arrest, I guess. But the decision to take him out of the country could have been made for any number of reasons. Maybe they just figured it was a short cut to avoid a trial and what that would entail. Who knows. At any rate, Zelaya didn't want to go and seemed ready to defend his actions, although he must be one self assured SOB to think there was any defense when the congress, courts and military are lined up against you.

All in all, Zelaya was the cause of the whole thing. Regardless, world leaders aren't going to support the move to use the military to depose him and send him into exile. It was a really bad move in an otherwise well orchestrated and legal plan to remove him from office. Too bad they screwed it up.

The bulk of the argument here has been about what Obama has done, which is next to nothing. He made a couple statements about it, emphasized the legal aspects of the removal and that democracy has to be held above the rest of this mess. Zelaya is the elected President and an illegal removal of him from the country, without a trial is not going to garner much support from other leaders around the world. Never will, no matter where it happens.

What has not happened is any kind of demands from Obama. I have not seen that he has even spoken directly to the new leaders in Honduras, much less insist that they do something. He registered his opinion with the media, the OAS and the UN. To try and color this as if Obama has taken any kind of lead, or made any kind of demands is obviously poppy cock. The Costa Ricans are mediating, the Hondurans are moving forward with making sure Zelaya faces charges, should he return, and the US, the Whitehouse and Obama have been fairly quiet about the whole thing. I think Obama played it well, not giving Chavez or Castro any ammo to claim that the US was behind the coup while also directing his response to the OAS, just as he promised he would in Central American matters.

As far as what will happen? I think Zelaya will not return to Honduras anytime soon. Perhaps sometime in the future, a new president down there will pardon him and allow him to come home. But he will never be president of Honduras. He will probably live in exile somewhere in Central America and bark at anyone who will listen for the next ten years. Honduras will have their scheduled elections and we will be able to recognize a democratic elected president and emerge none the worse for wear from the whole incident precisely because Obama has not made public investment in demands from Honduras.

 

[Sweet Willy]

you are partly right on the first paert, it IS a Honduran issue, and a Honduran issue ONLY

as to what this administration has said, they said he should be returned to power
that is what the presidential spokesperson said
and he speaks for Obama

Yes. But nothing has been insisted. No demands, no direct talks with Honduras.

And it is not solely a Honduran issue. They fixed that when they flew Zelaya, at gun point, into Costa Rica. Now, had they done the legal thing, followed the order, Zelaya would be under arrest in Honduras right now. And it would be a Honduran issue.

While Obama is certainly not calling upon the Marines to reinstate Zelaya to power, as you acknowledge, Obama is calling for something unconstitutional, along with Chavez and Castro.

And that is the only point I was making, in specific to Divecon. She phrased a loaded question and doesn't have the brains to rephrase it so that an honest answer can be given.

Obama certainly has stated what his position, what the Whitehouse position is. They have said what they think should be done, they have voiced their opinion to the OAS and the UN and the media. What they have not done is insist that Honduras do anything. I haven't seen anywhere that we have even made a direct statement to the Hondurans.

 

[DiveCon]

Yes. But nothing has been insisted. No demands, no direct talks with Honduras.

And it is not solely a Honduran issue. They fixed that when they flew Zelaya, at gun point, into Costa Rica. Now, had they done the legal thing, followed the order, Zelaya would be under arrest in Honduras right now. And it would be a Honduran issue.

While Obama is certainly not calling upon the Marines to reinstate Zelaya to power, as you acknowledge, Obama is calling for something unconstitutional, along with Chavez and Castro.

And that is the only point I was making, in specific to Divecon. She phrased a loaded question and doesn't have the brains to rephrase it so that an honest answer can be given.

Obama certainly has stated what his position, what the Whitehouse position is. They have said what they think should be done, they have voiced their opinion to the OAS and the UN and the media. What they have not done is insist that Honduras do anything. I haven't seen anywhere that we have even made a direct statement to the Hondurans.

still lying

and i was born male and still am
which you have been told before