Homeowner Told To Take Down Nativity From Lawn

[dilloduck]

If you move into one of these subdivisions, you can't just put anything you want up on your own property and then claim constitutional authority for it. It's the main reason many people have moved further away from Detroit to escape these kinds of neighborhoods.

So does that make it right or legal ?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

So does that make it right or legal ?

It's completely legal. You waived those particular rights when you signed.

 

[GotZoom]

So does that make it right or legal ?

The HOA "rules" are given to each new homeowner when they close on the property.

Well, at least they are supposed to by. Both (or just the one) realtor(s) know this.

 

[dilloduck]

It's completely legal. You waived those particular rights when you signed.

Legality is merely a term to establish and maintain a certain social order--laws are interpreted differently and changed frequently. A decent attorney can save this nativity scene from an idiot neighbor who merely wants to stomp Christianity into the ground.

 

[Trigg]

"We believe that homeowners should be able to express their religious or political views on their own property," said Wendy Wagenheim, the director of communications for the ACLU of Michigan. "If the homeowner's association went to court, it's questionable whether these regulations could be enforced."



Pulled this out of one article. LOOK the ACLU is actually defending the families right to have this up in their yard. color me amazed.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Legality is merely a term to establish and maintain a certain social order--laws are interpreted differently and changed frequently. A decent attorney can save this nativity scene from an idiot neighbor who merely wants to stomp Christianity into the ground.

Did you happen to read that the threat was rescinded? This particular problem has already been solved. I thought we had moved on and were now discussing the broader topic of property rights vs. Home Owner Association rules, not whether or not they can put up Christmas decorations...

 

[dilloduck]

Did you happen to read that the threat was rescinded? This particular problem has already been solved. I thought we had moved on and were now discussing the broader topic of property rights vs. Home Owner Association rules, not whether or not they can put up Christmas decorations...

I would describe it more as my right to practice my religion vs Home owners' association rules. How about I make a subdivision that prohibits mulims from even living there?

 

[Mr. P]

Ahhhh the almighty neighborhood association!
I’ll never buy property anywhere that has one, and this is a good example of why.

 

[Trigg]

I can understand how Home Owner Associations came about, someone mentioned large numbers of pink flamingos. But, most of the time they're just obnoxious rules. My mother has lived in 3 different sub-divisions and good lord the stupid rules!!!! :bangheads

They're a big part of the reason I live out in the boonies on my 3 little acres. I can have a bon fire any time I want. I can have friends bring their camper and set it up for the weekend, and in the not to distant future all my kids will be driving and my driveway will look like a parking lot.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I would describe it more as my right to practice my religion vs Home owners' association rules. How about I make a subdivision that prohibits mulims from even living there?

It's not about the religion. The rule wasn't created to attack religious displays. It was put in place to attack TACKY displays. That it is now being used against this family is a misuse of it's intent. The HOA probably wasn't careful enough in choosing their language when they drafted the rules.

Your no-Muslims-allowed subdivision is a different situation entirely, and has little bearing to this neighborhood.

 

[Bonnie]

If i remember correctly though, they would only be bound by covenants on the property that existed or they should have known existed at the time of purchase.

I highly doubt such a covenant exists in this instance. And if it did I doubt they had any reason to know of it if they have put it up several years in a row without complaint.

Of course I may be remembering the law wrong. or Michigan might have some nuances I don't know about.

If this were a condominium in which property was communally shared I would say maybe they have a right to ask it be placed somewhere else like their balcony etc. But this is his own property that he takes care of and owns. this goes way beyond infringement of freedom of religuous expression. And Im telling you that I am waiting for the day when someone is offended by my rosary that hangs in my car and lodges a complaint that I take it down based on the idea that my car even though privately owned still travels on public roads and is offensive to someone. Next it will be churches that can't put nativity's up on their property because the neighbor across the street is offended and doesn't want to have to look at it 3 weeks every year.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I can understand how Home Owner Associations came about, someone mentioned large numbers of pink flamingos. But, most of the time they're just obnoxious rules. My mother has lived in 3 different sub-divisions and good lord the stupid rules!!!! :bangheads

They're a big part of the reason I live out in the boonies on my 3 little acres. I can have a bon fire any time I want. I can have friends bring their camper and set it up for the weekend, and in the not to distant future all my kids will be driving and my driveway will look like a parking lot.

Exactly. If you want the freedom to do whatever you want on your property, then move somewhere that allows you to do so. No one forces you to live in these neighborhoods.

 

[Bonnie]

We also have no idea what other neighborhood politics are in play here. This family may (or may not) have pissed off people in another way, and as revenge they screwed up trying to get them to take down their display. There is always more to the story than what makes the newspaper... I can tell you all day long about the politics of living in a subdivision with these rules and how everyone uses them against the neighbors they don't like.

Those sound like fun neighborhoods to be in

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Those sound like fun neighborhoods to be in

And my parents wonder why it's so much less friendly than where we used to live. These subdivisions generally have pretty high-turnover, and there's almost always a house for sale on our street. I think it's part of the reason the standards are in place. I miss our old neighborhood where (when I was still a kid) me and the neighborhood kids would get together and decorate our bikes and big-wheels for the 4th and have our own parade. We'd all end up in the backyard of the 4 middle houses between the 2 cul-de-sacs we lived in for a picnic and other such fun things.

It's interesting, we had no community standards, yet the sense of community was very high.

Now that our house has community standards, there's almost no community. I remember when my brother and I moved in, we were so psyched that there was a community playground for us to play on... when we asked the kids across the street if they wanted to come, they looked at us funny and went back into their house.

In the 15 years my parents have been in their house, we've probably had 20-30 families as neighbors.

 

[Bonnie]

Ahhhh the almighty neighborhood association!
I’ll never buy property anywhere that has one, and this is a good example of why.

LOL yes a little power in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing.... Interesting or maybe sacry that people now have to be very wary of moving somewhere for fear of not being able to decortate ones own property the way the wish....Always read the small print :read:

 

[dmp]

Look at the rule "Outdoor Art" - CLEARLY there are other 'celebration-decorations' in that neighborhood which just as easily could have been considered 'art'. This particular case, while resovled, no doubt thanks in part to USMB, is clearly about an HOA caving to the will of somebody who bitched.

I see that all over, as an excuse, 'Well, we got a COMPLAINT...somebody was OFFENDED...thus, we haven't the stones to tell the whiner to go outside and play a game of hide-and-go-fuck-themselves, thus, we're changing policy."

blah...

Very few ppl stand up for the rights of Christians, fewer still stand up for the rights of White Christian Males.

 

[dilloduck]

LOL yes a little power in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing.... Interesting or maybe sacry that people now have to be very wary of moving somewhere for fear of not being able to decortate ones own property the way the wish....Always read the small print :read:

Austin has neighborhood associations which require no dues to belong to yet the associations are given tremendous weight with the city council. They can present recommendations to the city council if you belong to it or not. I found that you had better be present at the neighborhood association meetings or they will very likely misrepresent the preferences of the community to ensure the success of a select few who can manipulate the entire process. Ya gotta love a liberal citys' perception of individual rights.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Look at the rule "Outdoor Art" - CLEARLY there are other 'celebration-decorations' in that neighborhood which just as easily could have been considered 'art'. This particular case, while resovled, no doubt thanks in part to USMB, is clearly about an HOA caving to the will of somebody who bitched.

I see that all over, as an excuse, 'Well, we got a COMPLAINT...somebody was OFFENDED...thus, we haven't the stones to tell the whiner to go outside and play a game of hide-and-go-fuck-themselves, thus, we're changing policy."

blah...

Very few ppl stand up for the rights of Christians, fewer still stand up for the rights of White Christian Males.

I think hide-and-go-fuck-themselves would probably violate some rule of decency in the HOA rulebook...

But yes, you are correct. In this instance, the HOA should have told the person to go fuck off, which is why I wonder what else was in play. The fact that the family is Chaldean is a bit of a red flag to me, as they really know how to push people's buttons. The Chaldeans were definitely the biggest assholes in my school, and at Walled Lake it is the same way.

Then again, this particular Chaldean family might be perfectly normal, keep-to-themselves people. None of us will probably ever know.

 

[GotZoom]

All they had to do was have the family back-date a letter and show it as "approved" by the HOA.

If you want to look at a HOA that has gone way overboard, read up on Celebration, Florida.

 

[KarlMarx]

OK Avatar... correct me if I am wrong....

My understanding is that a contract cannot be enforced if it violates the constitution or specifically obliges one of the parties to break the Law. That is, if I signed a contract to waive my right to vote, or to free speech, or if I signed a contract to commit murder, the contract is null and void and not legally enforceable.

Regardless if the contract stated "no nativity sets" in plain English, a court challenge would quickly find in favor of the homeowner.

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on USMB!