Holland - An Alternative Health Care System

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Toro, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. Toro
    Offline

    Toro Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    50,771
    Thanks Received:
    11,058
    Trophy Points:
    2,030
    Location:
    The Big Bend via Riderville
    Ratings:
    +25,106
    I find this debate on whether or not health care is better in Canada or the US to be stale - as if there are no other alternatives.

    Well, here is one country that is a mixture of both. I am no expert on healthcare financing, but I feel the solution, or quasi-solution, between the problems in health care for Canada and America lies somewhere in between the two systems.

    The Netherlands.

    WSJ
     
  2. Angel Heart
    Offline

    Angel Heart Conservative Hippie

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    2,057
    Thanks Received:
    341
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Ratings:
    +341
    Most of America does have both. In Oregon there's the Oregon Health Plan. It covers all children and adults that are low income and don't have it available through work. They even have a program for those that can't afford the out of pay cost of employee covered ins. The thing too many forget is that the US isn't one large blob. We have states. Each state runs as if the state is it's own country. The Federal government is there for interstate commerce and to defend the whole. The health care issue needs to be addressed at the state level not the federal.
     
  3. ScreamingEagle
    Offline

    ScreamingEagle Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    12,887
    Thanks Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +2,159
    What's so great about this system? You still have the insurance companies controlling your heath services. You, the individual, are still just left as a pawn in the insurance game. Your doctor also gets to have his hands tied too.

    I'd like a system where the individual is the one who is in power and control of his own health services---
    not the insurance company,
    not an employer,
    not the government.
     
  4. mattskramer
    Offline

    mattskramer Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    5,852
    Thanks Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Texas
    Ratings:
    +359
    That used to exist in America a few decades ago. There was no Medicare or Medicaid and many people did not buy health insurance. I don’t know of such a system today where someone is not required to have coverage (through government or a private firm). I don’t know if you can opt out of Medicare or Medicaid. If you can, then I suppose that you would be responsible for your own health. You better be responsible and save your money wisely if you want to be solely responsible for your health care coverage.
     
  5. Bern80
    Offline

    Bern80 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,094
    Thanks Received:
    720
    Trophy Points:
    138
    Ratings:
    +726
    Interesting. My opinions on the subject are fairly well known. I wouldn't be oppossed to the tax increase a system like that would require if we could fugure out other ways to reduce taxes. There are most certainly some superfluous things in our tax code that could be done away with.
     
  6. Toro
    Offline

    Toro Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    50,771
    Thanks Received:
    11,058
    Trophy Points:
    2,030
    Location:
    The Big Bend via Riderville
    Ratings:
    +25,106
    The problem with government is that it often does not respond to supply and demand in an efficient manner.

    The problem with a free market is that some will not be able to afford the product at the clearing price. That's okay if we're talking about a car or a vacation, but health care is different because it involves the security of lives, similar to the armed forces and the police.

    The idea is to create a system where the market is allowed to clear as many as possible, and the government covers those the market leaves behind. In fact, this describes all health care systems in the industrialized world, the only difference is degree of involvement by the government and the market.

    This system in Holland has only just started, so it remains to be seen whether or not it will be successful. However, I like the idea of insurance companies not being able to refuse coverage. My wife met a guy at the dog park a few weekends ago who had a heart attack and now cannot get insurance. He's in his late 40s, slim and otherwise healthy. That, to me, is abominable.
     
  7. ScreamingEagle
    Offline

    ScreamingEagle Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    12,887
    Thanks Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +2,159
    You got that right. There is no way I want to sit in some dirty waiting room for hours when I am sick. If the clinic must be profitable it will be customer-oriented...not like some DMV where government workers don't give a damn if you have to wait all day.

    Health care involves the "security of lives"? Is that the new liberal justification for socialized medicine? Hey, when liberals stop supporting abortion then maybe I'll believe they are really concerned about the "security of lives".:eusa_liar:

    Let me tell you...there is NOBODY as concerned about your health and your security as YOU. The government will NEVER be as concerned about your health as you are. When you are the customer you are calling the shots and YOU are in control.

    You mean the government will pay for the poor, as per usual. I have no problem with the government paying for a core group of the destitute but that is not a good reason to change the whole system over to socialized medicine.

    The Holland system started out with patients waiting in lines. I like the idea of not going to any system that has that problem for starters.

    Many states here make it illegal to refuse coverage. What happens then is the person is able to buy coverage but he then has to pay a small fortune for it or they exclude prior problems. The real problem is why a healthy guy in his late 40s was running around without health insurance to begin with. Maybe he was between jobs? That's how a lot of people wind up stranded without insurance. This is why a person's health insurance should NOT be dependant on having a job. A person should be able to go out and buy the health insurance coverage of his choice like he buys car insurance. The coverage would remain in effect for as long as he paid his premiums. Health premiums would remain fairly low if the coverage did not include everything on top of catastrophic coverage. Regular visits to the doctor, lab tests, etc. should be paid for at the time of the visit. This would keep insurance companies out of the picture to a large degree. This is what HSAs (Health Savings Accounts) would be used for. A person could have quite a little bundle of cash set aside for his health needs by the time he was in his 40s.

    I might be agreeable with a law that required everybody to buy at least catastrophic health insurance....kind of like how we are required to buy at least minimal auto insurance. This would keep the insurance pool bigger and premiums down.
     
  8. Toro
    Offline

    Toro Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    50,771
    Thanks Received:
    11,058
    Trophy Points:
    2,030
    Location:
    The Big Bend via Riderville
    Ratings:
    +25,106
    Me neither.

    And the hospitals in Canada are as clean as the ones in America, or at least the ones I've been in.

    I'm very much against abortion.

    Why have a socialized police and a socialized army, then? We all know that the private systems works better than the government. Private police and private armies exist today in some parts of the world. Why not in America?

    What does it matter if you die of cancer or a terrorist bomb? Dead is dead is dead. And you are several thousand times more likely to die from cancer than terrorism.

    And nobody is more concerned about your security than you. Yet, people are willing to have the government provide society with policing and armed forces and firetrucks and all sorts of other services.

    Understand I'm not against private insurance. However, I find it a contradiction that many people who believe strongly in increasing spending (and thus taxes) on the military and the police are strongly opposed to government involvement in health care.

    What I put forth was not to turn a whole system over to socialized medicine. What the system in Holland does is include a blend of government and private insurance.

    I think there are some good ideas in there.

    Per my example, the guy I mentioned who had a heart attack had insurance, was dropped and cannot get it now.
     
  9. ScreamingEagle
    Offline

    ScreamingEagle Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    12,887
    Thanks Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +2,159
    Because we do not want a private force gaining physical control…we'd quickly wind up under a dictator.

    The primary function of government is to protect the country from attack, not to care for the sick.

    True. Yet, if the country is attacked, the government, which is in a much better position to maintain a big army, can respond immediately to the threat for everybody concerned. However, if your body is attacked by an illness, only you, the individual, need to get help, so you go to your private doctor who knows your specific health needs.

    Why a contradiction? Maybe you see the government as some sort of parental figure that is supposed to take care of all your big needs. I believe our federal government should exist primarily for our country's defense. I see individual health concerns as private business and primarily between you and your doctor.

    Why have the extra layer of government on top of the private insurance for everybody? Why not leave along those people who can pay and let them shop for their own personal health care services in a competitive market? Let the government supply its own health care program for those indigents who may fall through the cracks. That would make it smaller and easier for the government to manage.

    Thanks. Do you have any idea why he no longer had insurance at the time of his heart attack?
     
  10. Ruby
    Offline

    Ruby Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    Messages:
    596
    Thanks Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +32
    Why then trust them with our health care?

    Says you but it isnt true at all. Govt has numerous functions and it boils down to the function of helping the community run itself. It includes crime control, education, transportation, economy, health etc. A community of human beings concern themselves with numerous issues and we have govt as a central location to determine them, implement them and enforce them.

    The same can be said of the health of the nation. The best way to cater to the entire communities health needs is to create system that is available to all.

    Its not about "parental" is it? "Government" is a vehicle for a community to deal with issues that are natural and inherent to communities and how to best handle them for the benefit of the community.

    Not really, it encourages us to provide sub-standard care for the weakest and most vulnerable section of our society. We already seem to view poverty as a moral and character flaw...the poor are always the least heard and the least cared about.

    We also invite yet another problem....what to do when insurance companies place unfair practices into play and leave people under-insured, they wont qualify for "govt funded" care and yet the insurance they pay for leaves them without adequate coverage. We have seen more and more companies refusing justified claims, drop policy holders or turn people down due to pre-existing conditions.....we have a large portion of people falling through cracks that we are creating.
     

Share This Page