Have you drugged your kid today?

It is amazing that doctors and parents don't ask for feedback regarding its efficacy. If my child was taking Prozac or Ritalin, I think I'd like to know if it's working or not. Go figure. :confused:

Again, without knowing who is on what, you couldn't really be pulled into that process, and under federal laws, you aren't entitled to know who is on what.

Also Prozac is an antidepressant. It's unlikely that you or I could assess it's efficacy unless we were trained psychiatrists/psychologists.

I think methylphenidate/Ritalin would probably be easier and more observational.

Most child psychiatrists adhere to the recommendation of the American Association of Pediatrics that requires two separate observations from two separate persons before prescribing a stimulant for ADHD. One person is the parent, and the other is usually a teacher. Have you ever been given the form to fill out?


forms, submitted to testings, the whole 9 yards....

That means, if children are being over medicated, that the teaching profession is facilitating this as they are involved in the process.


no kidding...



Apparently this woman has a bunch of bumper stickers on her car. It just seems ridiculous that anyone would be offended, and even so, I don't get how some think there is some "unalienable right" not to be offended. Talk about "sweating the small stuff". Someone may have had an ax to grind for something else unrelated.

I think her bumper sticker is an obnoxious dig at some of the parents of her student's best efforts to get medical care. Since she was given the option to remove the sticker as a condition of employment and decided not to, I am not sympathetic to her. If the school had simply fired her without a chance for remediation, it would be a different story.

Seeking help for hyperactive kids doesn't make parents villains. Some children really benefit from them, especially those with conduct disorders, that are highly correlated with ADHD, that are prone to evolving into antisocial personality disorders and criminality. There is good evidence that these medications can help.
[/QUOTE]

There are millions of Americans on prozac and/or thier generic counterparts without a bona fide shrink having written the script as we speak

In fact it's traceable to our water supplies in larger metro's

The school system basically follows suit, and will openly admit 'experimenting' with your kid

That's not 'an axe to grind'

That's an agenda
 
I have never been asked to fill out a form for a doctor. And yes many kids do benefit from meds. But some suffer side effects and dosage should be monitored. As a parent, I would want to know if my kid seems hyper or sleepy during certain times of the day. I used to send out a parent questionaire and had an optional comment section about health concerns. I learned some useful info about allergies, vision, medications, etc. that the parents wanted the school to know. I don't bother anymore because too few kids returned it. A lot of parents think the teachers know that info, but they don't. HIPAA regs are ridiculous.

You are the first person I've ever encountered who thinks HIPAA is absurd. The bottom line is, being a teacher shouldn't make you privy to your student's health information. I wouldn't want my health information shared without my consent, I doubt you would want yours shared either. If the parent is okay with that information being given out, then that is a separate issue. However, you shouldn't simply be entitled to it, anymore than an employer should be entitled to his employee's medical records.

I am surprised you haven't had to fill out a questionaire. It's basically considered standard of care. The child psychiatrists I saw wouldn't give out Ritalin without it.
 
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that kids are drugged too much by well meaning idiots who think A.D.D and the like are actual diseases?

ADHD and the like are actual psychiatric disorders. Your opinion to the contrary doesn't change that fact.

If I was in grade school today, I have no doubt that some idiot would have diagnosed me as ADD. You want to know why?

I was so fucking bored in school that I acted up a bit and I had a smart mouth that I was never afraid of using. Today that would get me a prescription and a trip to a counselor once a week.

Just because some people think ADD is a medical condition that needs to be treated with drugs does not necessarily mean it's true.

Here's a neurologist who says ADHD is bunk.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Fraud-Psychiatry-Patients-Children/dp/1412064589#reader_1412064589]Amazon.com: The ADHD Fraud: How Psychiatry Makes "Patients" of Normal Children (9781412064583): Fred A. Baughman Jr.: Books[/ame]

It is this particular medical and scientific background that has led him to view the "epidemic" of one particular "disease"--Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)--with increasing alarm. Dr. Baughman describes this himself. Referring to psychiatry, he says:

"They made a list of the most common symptoms of emotional discomfiture of children; those which bother teachers and parents most, and in a stroke that could not be more devoid of science or Hippocratic motive--termed them a 'disease.' Twenty five years of research, not deserving of the term 'research.,' has failed to validate ADD/ADHD as a disease. Tragically--the "epidemic" having grown from 500 thousand in 1985 to between 5 and 7 million today--this remains the state of the 'science' of ADHD."
 
There are millions of Americans on prozac and/or thier generic counterparts without a bona fide shrink having written the script as we speak

Any Dr. can prescribe any medication. It's a matter of what they feel comfortable prescribing, as their insurance/license is on the line for anything they write for. Since SSRI/SNRIs are generally well tolerated and have minimal side effects, they are often written for by general practitioners. There is no legal requirement to see a psychiatrist for them.

There is still a medical degree involved in the process.

In fact it's traceable to our water supplies in larger metro's

That's because a lot of people use them.

The school system basically follows suit, and will openly admit 'experimenting' with your kid

That's not 'an axe to grind'

That's an agenda

Where have they admitted that?
 
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Never. But I teach H.S. Maybe the kids have been on it for years.

If a kid has a peanut allergy, shouldn't the teacher know? If a kid has asthma, needs glasses, etc., wouldn't it be wise to inform them? If parents don't care, then teachers shouldn't either. But like I said, I'm sure many believe the nurse shares that, and they don't. Confidentiality trumps common sense.

And I am not the only person who thinks HIPAA regs are ridiculous. Most doctors I know do too. I'm waiting for the day I can no longer pick up my husband's scripts at the pharmacy.
 
Speaking of HIPPA regulations, here is what annoys the crap out of me...

When you go to see a doctor now, they make you sign a bunch of release forms first, but get extremely pissed off if you actually want to read them first.
 
If I was in grade school today, I have no doubt that some idiot would have diagnosed me as ADD. You want to know why?

Yeah, the lame "back in my day" talking point is often tossed out as if it were at all relevant to a pathological process.

I was so fucking bored in school that I acted up a bit and I had a smart mouth that I was never afraid of using. Today that would get me a prescription and a trip to a counselor once a week.

Only if you agreed to it. Believe it or not, you can't force a kid to take ritalin.

Just because some people think ADD is a medical condition that needs to be treated with drugs does not necessarily mean it's true.

And vice versa.

Here's a neurologist who says ADHD is bunk.

Amazon.com: The ADHD Fraud: How Psychiatry Makes "Patients" of Normal Children (9781412064583): Fred A. Baughman Jr.: Books

It is this particular medical and scientific background that has led him to view the "epidemic" of one particular "disease"--Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)--with increasing alarm. Dr. Baughman describes this himself. Referring to psychiatry, he says:

"They made a list of the most common symptoms of emotional discomfiture of children; those which bother teachers and parents most, and in a stroke that could not be more devoid of science or Hippocratic motive--termed them a 'disease.' Twenty five years of research, not deserving of the term 'research.,' has failed to validate ADD/ADHD as a disease. Tragically--the "epidemic" having grown from 500 thousand in 1985 to between 5 and 7 million today--this remains the state of the 'science' of ADHD."

Baughman is openly critical of psychiatry as a whole and is linked the Scientology's CCHR/anti-psychiatry movement. His opinions do not represent those of the medical community as a whole.

Case in point:
AAP CHILDREN'S HEALTH TOPICS: ADHD

You can argue that ADHD is over treated, and perhaps it is. However, to argue that it's non-existent is absurd and not supported by the facts, data, and consensus of the medical community.
 
Speaking of HIPPA regulations, here is what annoys the crap out of me...

When you go to see a doctor now, they make you sign a bunch of release forms first, but get extremely pissed off if you actually want to read them first.

Try and get a Dr to give you a copy of your medical records if you want t real run around.
 
Never. But I teach H.S. Maybe the kids have been on it for years.

That's probably why.

If a kid has a peanut allergy, shouldn't the teacher know? If a kid has asthma, needs glasses, etc., wouldn't it be wise to inform them? If parents don't care, then teachers shouldn't either. But like I said, I'm sure many believe the nurse shares that, and they don't. Confidentiality trumps common sense.

An allergy is not the same thing as a medical condition that is being treated. Again, a parent may choose to share the information, but teachers should not simply be privy to patient records.

If you were entitled to know what medications a person was on, then a google search would allow you to know what medical ailments they had. If you knew your student was on HAART treatment, you would know they had HIV. Do you think teachers should have a right to know if their students have HIV? I don't.

And I am not the only person who thinks HIPAA regs are ridiculous. Most doctors I know do too. I'm waiting for the day I can no longer pick up my husband's scripts at the pharmacy.

They may be inconvenient, but HIPAA was designed to protect patients. I don't see how anyone can see that as a bad thing.

Since I have access to our hospital's e-chart system, should I be able to look up all my friend's names to see if their information is in the system? Of course not. I don't have a need to know that information if I am not involved in their care and it's a missuse of the system.
 
If I was in grade school today, I have no doubt that some idiot would have diagnosed me as ADD. You want to know why?

Yeah, the lame "back in my day" talking point is often tossed out as if it were at all relevant to a pathological process.

I was so fucking bored in school that I acted up a bit and I had a smart mouth that I was never afraid of using. Today that would get me a prescription and a trip to a counselor once a week.

Only if you agreed to it. Believe it or not, you can't force a kid to take ritalin.



And vice versa.

Here's a neurologist who says ADHD is bunk.

Amazon.com: The ADHD Fraud: How Psychiatry Makes "Patients" of Normal Children (9781412064583): Fred A. Baughman Jr.: Books

It is this particular medical and scientific background that has led him to view the "epidemic" of one particular "disease"--Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)--with increasing alarm. Dr. Baughman describes this himself. Referring to psychiatry, he says:

"They made a list of the most common symptoms of emotional discomfiture of children; those which bother teachers and parents most, and in a stroke that could not be more devoid of science or Hippocratic motive--termed them a 'disease.' Twenty five years of research, not deserving of the term 'research.,' has failed to validate ADD/ADHD as a disease. Tragically--the "epidemic" having grown from 500 thousand in 1985 to between 5 and 7 million today--this remains the state of the 'science' of ADHD."

Baughman is openly critical of psychiatry as a whole and is linked the Scientology's CCHR/anti-psychiatry movement. His opinions do not represent those of the medical community as a whole.

Case in point:
AAP CHILDREN'S HEALTH TOPICS: ADHD

You can argue that ADHD is over treated, and perhaps it is. However, to argue that it's non-existent is absurd and not supported by the facts, data, and consensus of the medical community.

Yeah and fucking doctors never make mistakes.

Remember when the consensus of the medical community was that electro-convulsive therapy was the best thing since sliced bread?

Or how about giving DES to pregnant women?

It's safer to assume your Dr is wrong than to believe everything he tells you.
 
Yeah and fucking doctors never make mistakes.

Of course they do. However, physicians operate off of the evidence. One "rogue" neurologist who went to medical school 60 years ago doesn't negate that.

Remember when the consensus of the medical community was that electro-convulsive therapy was the best thing since sliced bread?

In fact it is still in use, and is still the most effective treatment for Major Depressive Disorder and has minimal side effects. People freak out about it, because it seems barbaric. Patients have to consent to being treated with ECT, as with anything else.

Or how about giving DES to pregnant women?

Yeah, that was a mistake. Remember when Doctors told everyone that cigarettes cause lung cancer and big tobacco started an advertisement campaign to discredit them?

It's safer to assume your Dr is wrong than to believe everything he tells you.

Then why even go to a Doctor to begin with? If you are simply going to pick and choose what medical advice you are going to listen too?
 
Yeah and fucking doctors never make mistakes.

Of course they do. However, physicians operate off of the evidence. One "rogue" neurologist who went to medical school 60 years ago doesn't negate that.

Not just one Dr had problems with ADHD or the new DSM

Psychiatric diagnosis: That way, madness lies | The Economist

The chairmen of two previous DSM task forces have been particularly critical of the present effort. In a letter to Psychiatric Times, written last June, for example, Allen Frances, a psychiatrist at Duke University who chaired the DSM-IV task force, accused his successors of being too secretive, and of closing themselves off from outside opinion. He also worried that adding dimensional ratings to the DSM could lead to many more diagnoses based on symptoms that would previously have placed an individual in the normal range. Pharmaceutical companies, eager to expand their markets, would be tempted to pounce on these new “patients”. Dr Frances was supported by Robert Spitzer, a professor of psychiatry at Columbia University who was chairman of the DSM-III task force.

Face it only a few Drs are responsible for your "consensus"

Remember when the consensus of the medical community was that electro-convulsive therapy was the best thing since sliced bread?

In fact it is still in use, and is still the most effective treatment for Major Depressive Disorder and has minimal side effects. People freak out about it, because it seems barbaric. Patients have to consent to being treated with ECT, as with anything else.

How much was it over used because of a so called "consensus"?

Or how about giving DES to pregnant women?

Yeah, that was a mistake. Remember when Doctors told everyone that cigarettes cause lung cancer and big tobacco started an advertisement campaign to discredit them?

Your point is what that cigarette companies just like drug companies want to make money?

It's safer to assume your Dr is wrong than to believe everything he tells you.

Then why even go to a Doctor to begin with? If you are simply going to pick and choose what medical advice you are going to listen too?
Drs are nothing more than people and people fuck up all the time. To think otherwise is naive.

If you assume your Dr is going to fuck up, you're safer than if you assume he's right all the time
 
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I have never been asked to fill out a form for a doctor. And yes many kids do benefit from meds. But some suffer side effects and dosage should be monitored. As a parent, I would want to know if my kid seems hyper or sleepy during certain times of the day. I used to send out a parent questionaire and had an optional comment section about health concerns. I learned some useful info about allergies, vision, medications, etc. that the parents wanted the school to know. I don't bother anymore because too few kids returned it. A lot of parents think the teachers know that info, but they don't. HIPAA regs are ridiculous.

You are the first person I've ever encountered who thinks HIPAA is absurd. The bottom line is, being a teacher shouldn't make you privy to your student's health information. I wouldn't want my health information shared without my consent, I doubt you would want yours shared either. If the parent is okay with that information being given out, then that is a separate issue. However, you shouldn't simply be entitled to it, anymore than an employer should be entitled to his employee's medical records.

I am surprised you haven't had to fill out a questionaire. It's basically considered standard of care. The child psychiatrists I saw wouldn't give out Ritalin without it.

I have patients sign HIPPA's all the time , they are just another bueracratic cog in the wheel, and generally i'd say patients fare worse when they have multiple health care professionals and pharmacits who can't , or won't talk due to it

you don't want to get me started on it
 
There are millions of Americans on prozac and/or thier generic counterparts without a bona fide shrink having written the script as we speak

Any Dr. can prescribe any medication. It's a matter of what they feel comfortable prescribing, as their insurance/license is on the line for anything they write for. Since SSRI/SNRIs are generally well tolerated and have minimal side effects, they are often written for by general practitioners. There is no legal requirement to see a psychiatrist for them.

There is still a medical degree involved in the process.

can you say 'drive through'? .....>

Researchers found that more than a quarter of Americans currently taking antidepressants haven't actually been diagnosed with the conditions that traditionally qualified one for a prescription, like depression or anxiety disorders.

Antidepressant Medication: Millions Prescribed Have No Psychiatric Diagnosis

In fact it's traceable to our water supplies in larger metro's

That's because a lot of people use them.

we're a happy people

The school system basically follows suit, and will openly admit 'experimenting' with your kid

That's not 'an axe to grind'

That's an agenda

Where have they admitted that?

my local one did for me, and actions speak louder than words for the rest of you that go down my path
 
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Never. But I teach H.S. Maybe the kids have been on it for years.

That's probably why.

If a kid has a peanut allergy, shouldn't the teacher know? If a kid has asthma, needs glasses, etc., wouldn't it be wise to inform them? If parents don't care, then teachers shouldn't either. But like I said, I'm sure many believe the nurse shares that, and they don't. Confidentiality trumps common sense.

An allergy is not the same thing as a medical condition that is being treated. Again, a parent may choose to share the information, but teachers should not simply be privy to patient records.

If you were entitled to know what medications a person was on, then a google search would allow you to know what medical ailments they had. If you knew your student was on HAART treatment, you would know they had HIV. Do you think teachers should have a right to know if their students have HIV? I don't.

And I am not the only person who thinks HIPAA regs are ridiculous. Most doctors I know do too. I'm waiting for the day I can no longer pick up my husband's scripts at the pharmacy.

They may be inconvenient, but HIPAA was designed to protect patients. I don't see how anyone can see that as a bad thing.


Since I have access to our hospital's e-chart system, should I be able to look up all my friend's names to see if their information is in the system? Of course not. I don't have a need to know that information if I am not involved in their care and it's a missuse of the system.

I don't see any reason why you'd want to know that info, but who cares? My medical history is what it is. Unless someone has genital herpes or a third nut, I don't see why the info is so fricken top secret. The people at the bank know how much money we have. My salary is public info. A simple tax record search could let nosy neighbors know what property we own. I'm far less comfortable with that than anyone knowing how many times I've been pregnant. (Four) Sheez. Privacy is a good thing. But if the doctor wants to let my husband know my tests were fine, then for God sakes, say so.

There is no shame in letting a teacher know a kid is on Ritalin. Unless of course, they really don't need it.
 
Listen to the side effects (mandated by the federal government) inherent in some prescription drugs designed to regulate moods and depression. Thoughts of suicide, aggression, and everything else from crazy dreams to skin problems. "Fatal events have occurred". It's the same stuff that part time school nurses and teachers dose kids to make them "behave". It was unreported that the Columbine shooters were dosed with prescription psychotic drugs.
 
It's been a generation since ritalin , and it's generic derivatives have landed in the school systems lap, so it's contra's are not hard to look up

what we do have is a system that still hangs it's hat on better living through chemicals canard

what this doctrine has done is pollute the issue to target any kid, and casts a shadow over those truly in need

As to HIPPA, it's not even on the radar during the 'study' , which may be double blind, and you'll find many of the prescibed kids 'cheeking' thier meds, and/or selling their script in HS anyways

One also needs consider the mental health professions infiltraion of the school system via mandate(s) , allowing psycologists free rien in lieu of psychiatric diagnosis. There's a world of contrast betwix the two, and American Psycologists have lobbied for more wiggle room.

In fact, the American Psycology ass. will waive the 2 years of post grad studies if candidates can prove significant field performance

anyone wanna guess where these wanna be's cut their teeth?
 
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It's been a generation since ritalin , and it's generic derivatives have landed in the school systems lap, so it's contra's are not hard to look up

what we do have is a system that still hangs it's hat on better living through chemicals canard

what this doctrine has done is pollute the issue to target any kid, and casts a shadow over those truly in need

As to HIPPA, it's not even on the radar during the 'study' , which may be double blind, and you'll find many of the prescibed kids 'cheeking' thier meds, and/or selling their script in HS anyways

One also needs consider the mental health professions infiltraion of the school system via mandate(s) , allowing psycologists free rien in lieu of psychiatric diagnosis. There's a world of contrast betwix the two, and American Psycologists have lobbied for more wiggle room.

In fact, the American Psycology ass. will waive the 2 years of post grad studies if candidates can prove significant field performance

anyone wanna guess where these wanna be's cut their teeth?

Psychologists can't write a prescription for ibuprofen, let alone psych meds. They can diagnose, but they can't treat.
 
It's been a generation since ritalin , and it's generic derivatives have landed in the school systems lap, so it's contra's are not hard to look up

what we do have is a system that still hangs it's hat on better living through chemicals canard

what this doctrine has done is pollute the issue to target any kid, and casts a shadow over those truly in need

As to HIPPA, it's not even on the radar during the 'study' , which may be double blind, and you'll find many of the prescibed kids 'cheeking' thier meds, and/or selling their script in HS anyways

One also needs consider the mental health professions infiltraion of the school system via mandate(s) , allowing psycologists free rien in lieu of psychiatric diagnosis. There's a world of contrast betwix the two, and American Psycologists have lobbied for more wiggle room.

In fact, the American Psycology ass. will waive the 2 years of post grad studies if candidates can prove significant field performance

anyone wanna guess where these wanna be's cut their teeth?

Psychologists can't write a prescription for ibuprofen, let alone psych meds. They can diagnose, but they can't treat.

Does the concept of operating under another licensure via standing orders escape you teach? One would think you'd only need venture out into your own hometown to realize all those psych shingles hanging are affiliates

bt i digress, obviously the thread is in need of suppoprting views .....

The ADHD Industry - ADD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - Ritalin - Psychiatric Labeling

Doctors, pharmaceutical companies, psychologists, psychiatrists, neurologists, pediatricians, family practitioners, tutors, and schools all own a piece of this industry. Once a major American industry exists, it just keeps on growing.

With the industry driving the market, the goal is no longer to fix the problem, but to continue to treat the symptoms. This process generates money for those in the industry. If you fix the problems creating the symptoms, all of the revenue-producing drugs and services would go away. There would be no need for them.



with me so far teach?

The DSM-IV is the official "bible" of psychiatry. Every year the list of "mental illnesses" and "disorders" expands. In every case a package of symptoms are labeled as a "disorder" or "illness". Often, basic physiological situations, such as "drug addiction" or "drug withdrawal" are reclassified as "mental illnesses", or routine problems with life and/or the mind are labeled as "mental illnesses", such as "depression", "anxiety" and "attentional disorders". In all cases, the psychiatrists assume that the causes of all the "diseases" they invent are biological, and treatable with drugs and electric shock. This is false, but a major part of their "official party line" or "orthodoxy".
The members of the committee who put the DSM together actually "vote" on what should and shouldn't be in the book! Homosexuality used to be in the book until too many people complained about this. "Mental diseases" can go "in" and "out" of style depending on how the committee feels.

It is important for them to get as many "illnesses" into the book as possible, because once in the book, insurance companies base claim payments to doctors and hospitals on the book. If it isn't in the DSM, the rest of the psychiatric related communit doesn't view it as "official". Find out for yourself what a sham the DSM is, comprised of faulty observations, strong biopharmaceutical biases, and a complex nomenclature.


that's how the industry ticks, all fine and well you say?

let's look at the results after that generation i spoke of>

Ritalin Proven More Potent Than Cocaine - Nearly 10 Million Kids Drugged

Thirty years ago the World Health Organization (WHO) concluded that Ritalin was pharmacologically similar to cocaine in the pattern of abuse it fostered and cited it as a Schedule II drug - the most addictive in medical use. The Department of Justice also cited Ritalin as a Schedule II drug under the Controlled Substances Act, and the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) warned that "Ritalin substitutes for cocaine and d-amphetamine in a number of behavioral paradigms

further>

Volkow's findings, published in the Journal of Neuroscience and reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association, may act as a wake-up call to parents, educators and lawmakers who have yet to address the question of whether ADHD is a real physical, medical or neurological disease that can be scientifically confirmed or is even confirmable. Because the ADHD diagnosis is the No. 1 reason for drugging school-age children, and Volkow's research reconfirms that Ritalin isn't just kid stuff, parents may want to re-evaluate their child's treatment. The numbers alone are a telling sign of where the push to medicate is going.

According to the DEA, the number of prescriptions written for Ritalin since 1991 has increased by a factor of five (2.2 million) and about 80 percent of the 11 million prescriptions written for Ritalin are to "treat" ADHD. This means that nearly 9 million children have been prescribed the cocainelike "medication."

Furthermore, according to a study published last February in the Journal of the American Medical Association, "Trends in the Prescribing of Psychotropic Medications to Preschoolers," psychotropic medications have tripled in preschoolers ages 2 to 4 during a five-year period. More disturbing, say critics, given Volkow's recent revelations, is that during the last 15 years the use of Ritalin increased by 311 percent for those ages 15 to 19 and 170 percent for those ages 5 to 14.

The most recent figures available reveal that in 1998 there were approximately 46 million children in kindergarten through grade 12. Twenty percent - one of every five children in school - have been doped with the mind-altering drug.

This can be good news only for investors in the Swiss-based pharmaceutical company Novartis, which makes Ritalin. For instance, if the number of children taking the drug increased fivefold, so did the drug company's resultant profits and (presumably) stock value. In a June 28, 1999, article, "Doping Kids," Insight estimated that Novartis generated an increase in its stock-market value of $1,236 per child prescribed Ritalin. Based on these evaluations, the drug company would have enjoyed an increased stock-market value of approximately $10 billion or more since 1991.

In fact, the number of children being prescribed the cocainelike drug is rising at such a rate that, while good for investors, if ADHD were based on science and were a communicable disease, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would consider it a major medical epidemic among America's youth. In the meantime, prescriptions continue to increase even as researchers continue to focus on the effect of psychotropic drugs such as Ritalin rather than on how scientifically to verify or validate the diagnosis. And critics of this mass drugging have become convinced that is no accident.


go ahead, tell us how you 'just order the trucks' then....
 

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