Hamas breaks ceasefire as rockets explode near Be'er Sheva

[docmauser1]

And just when did this so called UN Palestine Commission go to Palestine to secure the territory and protect the citizens under its trust?

As in to protect jews from arabs?

 

[aris2chat]

@Tinmore, et al,

Teach me!

There were never any "international borders" made by or on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

Rocco, you start with something that is not true then you base your conclusion on that false premise.

(QUESTION)

Just where are the Arab Palestinians a party to any Treaty, Agreement, Armistice, etc, that specify "international boundaries" on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

None of the countries that were detached from Turkey determined their own borders. Their international borders were defined by the allied powers.

There are no treaties or agreements between those countries because their borders are undisputed. There has never been a borders dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

Why do you keep bringing up all this irrelevance?

(COMMENT)

With the exception of the Oslo Accords, I don't see anything the Arab-Palestinians have signed as a party to the agreement.

Can you show me?

Most Respectfully,
R

borders have changed. Syria used to be four states. Iraq tried to take back Kuwait. There are still disputes over islands in the persian gulf. Iran and Iraq fought a war over border disputes.
Even syria disputes it's borders farther to include jordan, israel, PA, lebanon, part of iraq, and part of turkey. Egypt wanted a pan-arab state under egyptian authority.
Kurds wanted their own state but was spit between iran, iraq, turkey and syria.

 

[P F Tinmore]

@Tinmore, et al,

Teach me!

There were never any "international borders" made by or on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

Rocco, you start with something that is not true then you base your conclusion on that false premise.

(QUESTION)

Just where are the Arab Palestinians a party to any Treaty, Agreement, Armistice, etc, that specify "international boundaries" on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

None of the countries that were detached from Turkey determined their own borders. Their international borders were defined by the allied powers.

There are no treaties or agreements between those countries because their borders are undisputed. There has never been a borders dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

Why do you keep bringing up all this irrelevance?

(COMMENT)

With the exception of the Oslo Accords, I don't see anything the Arab-Palestinians have signed as a party to the agreement.

Can you show me?

Most Respectfully,
R

borders have changed. Syria used to be four states. Iraq tried to take back Kuwait. There are still disputes over islands in the persian gulf. Iran and Iraq fought a war over border disputes.
Even syria disputes it's borders farther to include jordan, israel, PA, lebanon, part of iraq, and part of turkey. Egypt wanted a pan-arab state under egyptian authority.
Kurds wanted their own state but was spit between iran, iraq, turkey and syria.

There has never been a border dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

 

[aris2chat]

@Tinmore, et al,

Teach me!

There were never any "international borders" made by or on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

Rocco, you start with something that is not true then you base your conclusion on that false premise.

(QUESTION)

Just where are the Arab Palestinians a party to any Treaty, Agreement, Armistice, etc, that specify "international boundaries" on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

None of the countries that were detached from Turkey determined their own borders. Their international borders were defined by the allied powers.

There are no treaties or agreements between those countries because their borders are undisputed. There has never been a borders dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

Why do you keep bringing up all this irrelevance?

(COMMENT)

With the exception of the Oslo Accords, I don't see anything the Arab-Palestinians have signed as a party to the agreement.

Can you show me?

Most Respectfully,
R

borders have changed. Syria used to be four states. Iraq tried to take back Kuwait. There are still disputes over islands in the persian gulf. Iran and Iraq fought a war over border disputes.
Even syria disputes it's borders farther to include jordan, israel, PA, lebanon, part of iraq, and part of turkey. Egypt wanted a pan-arab state under egyptian authority.
Kurds wanted their own state but was spit between iran, iraq, turkey and syria.

There has never been a border dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

There has never been a palestinian "state"

 

[P F Tinmore]

@Tinmore, et al,

Teach me!

There were never any "international borders" made by or on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

Rocco, you start with something that is not true then you base your conclusion on that false premise.

(QUESTION)

Just where are the Arab Palestinians a party to any Treaty, Agreement, Armistice, etc, that specify "international boundaries" on behalf of the Arab Palestinian.

None of the countries that were detached from Turkey determined their own borders. Their international borders were defined by the allied powers.

There are no treaties or agreements between those countries because their borders are undisputed. There has never been a borders dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

Why do you keep bringing up all this irrelevance?

(COMMENT)

With the exception of the Oslo Accords, I don't see anything the Arab-Palestinians have signed as a party to the agreement.

Can you show me?

Most Respectfully,
R

borders have changed. Syria used to be four states. Iraq tried to take back Kuwait. There are still disputes over islands in the persian gulf. Iran and Iraq fought a war over border disputes.
Even syria disputes it's borders farther to include jordan, israel, PA, lebanon, part of iraq, and part of turkey. Egypt wanted a pan-arab state under egyptian authority.
Kurds wanted their own state but was spit between iran, iraq, turkey and syria.

There has never been a border dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

There has never been a palestinian "state"

Not relevant. Non self governing territories have the right to territorial integrity.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

May it is irrelevant, and maybe not.

Not relevant. Non self governing territories have the right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

The Territories under the Mandate and then transferred to the Trustee System, are not (for the purposes of territorial integrity) "non self governing." The territorial integrity was the responsibility of the LoN/Mandatory and the UN/successor government (UNPC).

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

May it is irrelevant, and maybe not.

Not relevant. Non self governing territories have the right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

The Territories under the Mandate and then transferred to the Trustee System, are not (for the purposes of territorial integrity) "non self governing." The territorial integrity was the responsibility of the LoN/Mandatory and the UN/successor government (UNPC).

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually, the UN is quite clear on who is entitled to basic inalienable rights.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories,

Being "a state" is not a criterion necessary for inalienable rights. I don't see anything that would exempt the Palestinians from basic universal rights.

Being a territory under alien subjugation since its inception only violates their rights. It does not negate those rights.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When did Israel make a colony?

And when did I mention a "state?"

Actually, the UN is quite clear on who is entitled to basic inalienable rights.

Being "a state" is not a criterion necessary for inalienable rights. I don't see anything that would exempt the Palestinians from basic universal rights.

Being a territory under alien subjugation since its inception only violates their rights. It does not negate those rights.

(COMMENT)

The occupation of the West Bank is a matter of safety and security for Israel. It is not a matter of subjugation. The People of the West Bank (and Gaza for that matter) are the same strain as those that attempted to deny the Jewish People their right of self-determination in 1948 when Israel followed the rules established under the UN in the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."

Attempting to use a 1960 Decolonization Policy is simply grasping at straws.

The Arab Palestinian, has been denying the rights of the Jewish People since the establishment of the Mandate for Palestine. This is just another strategy to gain sympathy --- attempting to promote the view that the Arab Palestinians are virtual victims --- when in fact they are culture unable to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbors. HAMAS has --- for nearly all the time it has been in authority in Gaza, directed an ongoing missile, rocket and mortar offensive at civilian targets. The HAMAS objective has been to inflict indiscriminate casualties on the largest scale as possible.

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) carries a new video of an official television broadcast in which a Hamas cleric states:

Our belief about fighting you [Jews] is that we will exterminate you, until the last one, and we will not leave of you, even one. For you are the usurpers of the land, foreigners, mercenaries of the present and of all times. Look at history, brothers: Wherever there were Jews, they spread corruption... (Quran): "They spread corruption in the land, and Allah does not like corrupters." Their belief is destructive. Their belief fulfills the prophecy. Our belief is in obtaining our rights on our land, implementing Shari'ah (Islamic law) under Allah's sky.​

[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 25, 2014]​

This is not an excerpt from the 1948 Pledge by the Arab Higher Committee, or the 1988 HAMAS Covenant --- or even the 2013 Official Position Paper. This is a July 2014 Broadcast on HAMAS TV.

• Minor Note:
  • As HAMAS, and its straphangers in the al-Qassam and al-Aqsa Brigades, as well as the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Fedayeen all want free reign in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the efforts and consultations by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas aimed at putting an end to (what they claim as Israeli occupation), does not take the Islamic State [formerly known as the Sunni Jihadist group the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) or the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)]; which already has an advance element inside Gaza. Whether there is a binding arrangement between HAMAS and ISIS, remains to be seen. But the threat posed by the combined shadow of HAMAS and ISIS is real. They are very similar in their objectives and strategies --- and the threat they pose is not just focused on Israel. The Arab League has not taken countermeasures or established an real defense against the forces of the Islamic State. Since HAMAS is not a reliable ally against ISIS, but Israel is, it remains to be seen how the League of Arab States (LAS), the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) view this, given HAMAS already plays patty-cake with ISIS.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When did Israel make a colony?

And when did I mention a "state?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You didn't. I was responding to aris2chat.

But you did say:

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Which is basically the same line of crap. That is irrelevant too.

Then you base the rest of your post on false premise.

 

[aris2chat]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When did Israel make a colony?

And when did I mention a "state?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You didn't. I was responding to aris2chat.

But you did say:

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Which is basically the same line of crap. That is irrelevant too.

Then you base the rest of your post on false premise.

>> The territorial integrity was the responsibility of the LoN/Mandatory and the UN/successor government<<

It was not up the Brits not the arabs to decide.

>>Territorial integrity is the principle under international law that nation-states should not attempt to promote secessionist movements or to promote border changes in other nation-states. Conversely it states that imposition by force of a border change is an act of aggression.<<

Arabs refused a palestinian state. What might have been a palestinian state was taken by other arab states. The neighbors changed the lines of what might have been a state leaving Israel in control of territory and forming a new border. Israel was recognized as a state by the world body along those lines. WB and G were later given to Israel by the arab states that had occupied them, after attacking Israel. This then left Israel with the mandate land and since the right of a palestinian land was refused at the UN, it is up to Israel if it establishes a palestinian state and along what borders. Israel is not the "mandate" and it decides how the land is divided and when the palestinians are fully ready as a state, no longer just an authority.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When did Israel make a colony?

And when did I mention a "state?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You didn't. I was responding to aris2chat.

But you did say:

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Which is basically the same line of crap. That is irrelevant too.

Then you base the rest of your post on false premise.

Tinmore, the Arab Palestinians relinquished any claim to a state on May 15, 1948 and it can't be undone until they abandon Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood and TERRORISM. Capiche?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When did Israel make a colony?

And when did I mention a "state?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You didn't. I was responding to aris2chat.

But you did say:

Palestine (former Mandate territory of) was never under the control of the Palestinians and the territorial integrity was never in the hands of the Palestinians.

Which is basically the same line of crap. That is irrelevant too.

Then you base the rest of your post on false premise.

>> The territorial integrity was the responsibility of the LoN/Mandatory and the UN/successor government<<

It was not up the Brits not the arabs to decide.

>>Territorial integrity is the principle under international law that nation-states should not attempt to promote secessionist movements or to promote border changes in other nation-states. Conversely it states that imposition by force of a border change is an act of aggression.<<

That is true, however, the UN states:

"Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence,"

also have the right to territorial integrity.

The rest of your post directly contradicts the above or is otherwise untrue.

Arabs refused a palestinian state. What might have been a palestinian state was taken by other arab states. The neighbors changed the lines of what might have been a state leaving Israel in control of territory and forming a new border. Israel was recognized as a state by the world body along those lines. WB and G were later given to Israel by the arab states that had occupied them, after attacking Israel. This then left Israel with the mandate land and since the right of a palestinian land was refused at the UN, it is up to Israel if it establishes a palestinian state and along what borders. Israel is not the "mandate" and it decides how the land is divided and when the palestinians are fully ready as a state, no longer just an authority.

 

[docmauser1]

There has never been a border dispute between Palestine and any of its neighbors.

Of course! There was no state of palestine to begin with.