Gun store follows the law, get sued anyway, anti gunners want to sue gun stores in "legal warfare."

2aguy

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Jul 19, 2014
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Here you have a case of a gun store that followed the law. To the letter. But a mentally ill woman, with no record that would have put her on a list even if we had a list of the dangerously mentally ill...bought a gun legally, then used it to kill her father.

Some moron judge allowed the case to go forward, and they lost a million dollar settlement...for having obeyed the law....

Now the anti gunners see this as a way to use "legal warfare" to shut down gun stores.....

These are the people who are trying to take away the 2nd Amendment right to self defense.....they are vile.

This lawsuit against a gun shop sets a dangerous precedent - Hot Air

. The Washington Post brings us the story, indicating that it may be the template which opponents of gun rights can use in the future.

Janet Delana was desperate to stop her mentally ill adult daughter from buying another handgun.

Finally, Delana called the gun shop a few miles from her home, the one that had sold her daughter a black Hi-Point pistol a month earlier when her last disability check had arrived…

“I’m begging you,” Delana said through tears. “I’m begging you as a mother, if she comes in, please don’t sell her a gun.”

Colby Sue Weathers was mentally ill, but she had never been identified as a threat to herself or others by a judge or ordered to an extended mental hospital stay — which meant she could pass the background check for her gun…

An hour after leaving the gun store, Weathers was back home where her father sat at a computer with his back to her.

She shot.

Weathers planned to kill herself next but told a 911 operator: “I can’t shoot myself. I was going to after I did it, but I couldn’t bring myself to it.”

As with most liberal causes, the Brady campaign is seeking to exploit the tragedy experienced by this family for their own benefit. We see the same tactics used in the debate over illegal immigration, where liberal groups find the most heart wrenching example of a child being separated from their parent in an attempt to pluck at the sensitivities of voters. The case of Ms. Weathers is indeed a tragedy which should be a call for action, but not the sort which the Brady campaign is seeking.

Something went desperately wrong in Janet Delana’s family, but it wasn’t the fault of the gun shop. As the article documents, Colby Sue was not some marginal character with a few questionable incidents on her record. She had, by the family’s own admission, been in and out of mental hospitals on numerous occasions and demonstrated worrisome if not outright dangerous behavior.

This is clearly not the sort of person who should be purchasing firearms. But whose responsibility is it? Colby Sue had people who cared about her and were clearly worried about both her safety and the safety of others. How is it then that this young woman was not brought before a court and adjudicated as mentally unbalanced? Even more to the point, she obviously was not receiving all the treatment that she needed to deal with her psychosis.

Had those steps been taken, a quick background check would have revealed that she was ineligible to purchase a weapon and the gun shop owner could have refused the sale. Having established that, let’s look at it from the perspective of the manager at the store. He receives a phone call from a distressed woman claiming that her daughter is crazy. T

he daughter then arrives looking to purchase a firearm, but passes the required background check with flying colors.

If he refuses to serve her and she turns out to be competent, he can wind up in trouble of an entirely different kind.

The manager has no way of knowing whether the woman on the phone is providing accurate information or is engaged in some sort of domestic dispute with her daughter and is just looking to cause trouble for her. These types of unofficial accounts are completely unreliable, which is why official court records are part of the process for clearing a background check.
 
An interesting and sad case on so many levels.

As you note regarding the fact she could pass a background check, the store owner is actually damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he didn't sell her a gun due to the request of her family member, he could probably be sued for discrimination or some sort denial of her rights.

The onus of who he can or cannot sell a gun to cannot be passed on to the store owner, outside of the background check protection. If so, there would be countless people telling such and such a business not to sell something to someone. It could be pharmaceutical abuse, a gun as in this case, alcohol to an alcoholic, or any other potential abuse on any number of products.
 
An interesting and sad case on so many levels.

As you note regarding the fact she could pass a background check, the store owner is actually damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he didn't sell her a gun due to the request of her family member, he could probably be sued for discrimination or some sort denial of her rights.

The onus of who he can or cannot sell a gun to cannot be passed on to the store owner, outside of the background check protection. If so, there would be countless people telling such and such a business not to sell something to someone. It could be pharmaceutical abuse, a gun as in this case, alcohol to an alcoholic, or any other potential abuse on any number of products.


Yes....this verdict needs to be appealed and thrown out.....if you can be punished for obeying the law...where does it end?
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.


They obeyed the law.....they didn't know who the mother was....

How is obeying the law something to be punished for...that opens a can of worms you don't want to open....
 
Here you have a case of a gun store that followed the law. To the letter. But a mentally ill woman, with no record that would have put her on a list even if we had a list of the dangerously mentally ill...bought a gun legally, then used it to kill her father.

Some moron judge allowed the case to go forward, and they lost a million dollar settlement...for having obeyed the law....

Now the anti gunners see this as a way to use "legal warfare" to shut down gun stores.....

These are the people who are trying to take away the 2nd Amendment right to self defense.....they are vile.

This lawsuit against a gun shop sets a dangerous precedent - Hot Air

. The Washington Post brings us the story, indicating that it may be the template which opponents of gun rights can use in the future.

Janet Delana was desperate to stop her mentally ill adult daughter from buying another handgun.

Finally, Delana called the gun shop a few miles from her home, the one that had sold her daughter a black Hi-Point pistol a month earlier when her last disability check had arrived…

“I’m begging you,” Delana said through tears. “I’m begging you as a mother, if she comes in, please don’t sell her a gun.”

Colby Sue Weathers was mentally ill, but she had never been identified as a threat to herself or others by a judge or ordered to an extended mental hospital stay — which meant she could pass the background check for her gun…

An hour after leaving the gun store, Weathers was back home where her father sat at a computer with his back to her.

She shot.

Weathers planned to kill herself next but told a 911 operator: “I can’t shoot myself. I was going to after I did it, but I couldn’t bring myself to it.”

As with most liberal causes, the Brady campaign is seeking to exploit the tragedy experienced by this family for their own benefit. We see the same tactics used in the debate over illegal immigration, where liberal groups find the most heart wrenching example of a child being separated from their parent in an attempt to pluck at the sensitivities of voters. The case of Ms. Weathers is indeed a tragedy which should be a call for action, but not the sort which the Brady campaign is seeking.

Something went desperately wrong in Janet Delana’s family, but it wasn’t the fault of the gun shop. As the article documents, Colby Sue was not some marginal character with a few questionable incidents on her record. She had, by the family’s own admission, been in and out of mental hospitals on numerous occasions and demonstrated worrisome if not outright dangerous behavior.

This is clearly not the sort of person who should be purchasing firearms. But whose responsibility is it? Colby Sue had people who cared about her and were clearly worried about both her safety and the safety of others. How is it then that this young woman was not brought before a court and adjudicated as mentally unbalanced? Even more to the point, she obviously was not receiving all the treatment that she needed to deal with her psychosis.

Had those steps been taken, a quick background check would have revealed that she was ineligible to purchase a weapon and the gun shop owner could have refused the sale. Having established that, let’s look at it from the perspective of the manager at the store. He receives a phone call from a distressed woman claiming that her daughter is crazy. T

he daughter then arrives looking to purchase a firearm, but passes the required background check with flying colors.

If he refuses to serve her and she turns out to be competent, he can wind up in trouble of an entirely different kind.

The manager has no way of knowing whether the woman on the phone is providing accurate information or is engaged in some sort of domestic dispute with her daughter and is just looking to cause trouble for her. These types of unofficial accounts are completely unreliable, which is why official court records are part of the process for clearing a background check.

The store settled the case, according to the WP article. They didn't lose the lawsuit.

Also according to the WP article, the "moron judge" that allowed the case to go forward was the Missouri Supreme Court. That court ruled that nothing in federal law prohibited the type of lawsuit Delana was pursuing. Further, under Missouri state law, a gun dealer "can be held liable if they should have known a buyer was dangerous."

This wasn't a criminal case, so there is nothing saying the sale was illegal.

Again per the WP article, Weathers had been hospitalized for mental illness multiple times for bipolar disorder and suicidal behavior, as well as being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. She moved in with her parents after her last hospitalization. Her parents took another gun she had purchased from her because they didn't feel she was competent to own one. Perhaps there was more they could have done, but the HotAir article makes it sound as though the parents weren't giving the daughter proper care. There simply isn't enough information to make that sort of judgement in either article. The information in the WP article makes it sound as though Weathers had been put through the system and, for some reason, that system decided she was not a danger. Perhaps the mother should have directed her anger at the mental health care system, rather than the gun store.

Because this suit was settled, I doubt we will see the evidence in detail. Did the store owner decide it was more cost-efficient to settle, or was he/she concerned there was enough evidence that the seller should have known that Weathers was dangerous? Even if the owner settled because of fear of losing the case, was that fear unfounded? On the surface it sounds as though the store should have been safe from liability, but is there more information that would change that? As happens so often, it's just too hard to tell. :dunno:
 
An interesting and sad case on so many levels.

As you note regarding the fact she could pass a background check, the store owner is actually damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he didn't sell her a gun due to the request of her family member, he could probably be sued for discrimination or some sort denial of her rights.

The onus of who he can or cannot sell a gun to cannot be passed on to the store owner, outside of the background check protection. If so, there would be countless people telling such and such a business not to sell something to someone. It could be pharmaceutical abuse, a gun as in this case, alcohol to an alcoholic, or any other potential abuse on any number of products.


Yes....this verdict needs to be appealed and thrown out.....if you can be punished for obeying the law...where does it end?

There was no verdict. The store apparently settled.
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.


They obeyed the law.....they didn't know who the mother was....

How is obeying the law something to be punished for...that opens a can of worms you don't want to open....

According to the WP article you linked, Missouri law allows a gun dealer to be held liable if they should have known the gun purchaser was dangerous. I don't know the specifics or precedents involved, so I can't say what "should have known" would entail.
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.


They obeyed the law.....they didn't know who the mother was....

How is obeying the law something to be punished for...that opens a can of worms you don't want to open....
No it doesn't. Following the law is clearly being used by the gun shop to hide behind. It didn't work, nor should it have worked.

The balance was the woman's inconvenience balanced against a known risk of harm. The gun shop bet wrong. There are plenty of times when "I was following the law" turns out to be last words.
 
Gun shop owners are not psychologists. The problem here is mental illness, not a firearm business. The proof of that lays with all of the customers that bought guns and then killed no one.
The problem is, there was a warning. There was a very specific warning. The gun shop chose to ignore the warning and it cost them.

It is no different than a garden shop getting a warning about a specific person wanting to build a bomb to blow up a school.

It's legal to sell fertilizer. The person comes in makes the purchase and 50 kids are dead. Claiming the legality of a sale of fertilizer won't help. The warning was specific enough to not interfere with the rights of other fertilizer buyers
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.

no. it didn't work but that is not the failure of the shop owner

And no he should not have paid attention to an unknown unidentified person
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.

no. it didn't work but that is not the failure of the shop owner

And no he should not have paid attention to an unknown unidentified person
As it turns out, he should have. Once the shop owner understood how wrong he was, he settled rather than take it to a disastrous trial.

I am as pro 2A as they come and I can see how bad a position the gun shop was in.
 
Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.

no. it didn't work but that is not the failure of the shop owner

And no he should not have paid attention to an unknown unidentified person
As it turns out, he should have. Once the shop owner understood how wrong he was, he settled rather than take it to a disastrous trial.

I am as pro 2A as they come and I can see how bad a position the gun shop was in.

Tell you what the day you start listening to and doing whatever every anonymous caller tells you to do is the day you can say that anyone should do the same.

You are holding this store owner to a higher standard than is required by the law and you are also holding him to a standard you do not practice
 
Gun shop owners are not psychologists. The problem here is mental illness, not a firearm business. The proof of that lays with all of the customers that bought guns and then killed no one.
The problem is, there was a warning. There was a very specific warning. The gun shop chose to ignore the warning and it cost them.

It is no different than a garden shop getting a warning about a specific person wanting to build a bomb to blow up a school.

It's legal to sell fertilizer. The person comes in makes the purchase and 50 kids are dead. Claiming the legality of a sale of fertilizer won't help. The warning was specific enough to not interfere with the rights of other fertilizer buyers

And how is the gun store owner to verify the warning? Perhaps the gun was necessary to defend against the very person that made the call.
Had that warning call been made to the police, what would they have done? Absolutely nothing. They would have told the caller to call them back when a crime has been committed. Unless the store owner has a crystal ball and can see the futures of his customers, then the gun store owner had no legal right to withhold the sale. The gun owner does not have the right to say, "Hmm, you look shady to me, no gun for you." That would also culminate in a law suit.

The caller should have had the person committed for evaluation. That is not the job of a store owner. This is nothing more than the anti-gun agenda being shoved down our throats...
 
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Did the mother communicate with this gun store and plead with them not to sell the deranged girl a gun?

The store was given adequate warning of the risk of harm. It chose to make a small profit.

so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.

no. it didn't work but that is not the failure of the shop owner

And no he should not have paid attention to an unknown unidentified person
As it turns out, he should have. Once the shop owner understood how wrong he was, he settled rather than take it to a disastrous trial.

I am as pro 2A as they come and I can see how bad a position the gun shop was in.

Tell you what the day you start listening to and doing whatever every anonymous caller tells you to do is the day you can say that anyone should do the same.

You are holding this store owner to a higher standard than is required by the law and you are also holding him to a standard you do not practice
Of course I would practice such a standard. If I had a gun shop and someone called to give me specific information on a dangerous person I would take it exceedingly seriously.

This wasn't an anonymous caller. It was the girl's mother. If the whole thing was bogus, no one died.

People take anonymous calls seriously all the time. An anonymous call can empty a mall, ground a flight or cancel classes for an entire school.

It goes without saying that the store owner was wrong and it cost them.
 
so what if the mother called? How is the shop owner supposed to know a voice on the phone is who she says she is and why should he take an unkown person's word for anything when he has access to the federal background check system?

The purchaser was 21 years old

She passed all the necessary checks
And it didn't work did it?

The gunshop should have paid attention to that unknown voice on the phone because the risk of harm outweighed the inconvenience.

no. it didn't work but that is not the failure of the shop owner

And no he should not have paid attention to an unknown unidentified person
As it turns out, he should have. Once the shop owner understood how wrong he was, he settled rather than take it to a disastrous trial.

I am as pro 2A as they come and I can see how bad a position the gun shop was in.

Tell you what the day you start listening to and doing whatever every anonymous caller tells you to do is the day you can say that anyone should do the same.

You are holding this store owner to a higher standard than is required by the law and you are also holding him to a standard you do not practice
Of course I would practice such a standard. If I had a gun shop and someone called to give me specific information on a dangerous person I would take it exceedingly seriously.

This wasn't an anonymous caller. It was the girl's mother. If the whole thing was bogus, no one died.

People take anonymous calls seriously all the time. An anonymous call can empty a mall, ground a flight or cancel classes for an entire school.

It goes without saying that the store owner was wrong and it cost them.
Of course it was anonymous
there was no way to verify who a voice on the phone is

The shop owner did absolutely nothing wrong. If the mother was so worried about her daughter, who was an adult, then she should have gone to the cops, confirmed her identity and filed a report saying her daughter was a danger to herself or others she should not have expected a gun shop owner to do that for her

so just to reiterate the gun shop owner did absolutely nothing wrong
 

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