Great Joke

[ajwps]

Originally posted by walwor

I apologize if I have been unclear. I am not saying that someone else is speaking in Luke 19 verse 14. Jesus is speaking the entire time, from verse 12 through 27, and all of those verses are the text of the parable. In verse 14, Jesus says of the nobleman that he was hated by his citizens, who say "We will not have this man to reign over us." He gives the minas to his servants, and the ones who have profited, he rewards. The one who hoarded the mina, he takes even that one mina away. In verse 24, he says to take the one mina from that servant and give it to the one who has 10. Verse 25- But they said to him, "Master, he has ten minas." Verse 26- the nobleman replies that to everyone who has will be given, and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. Verse 27- the nobleman still talking: "But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." Those enemies were referred to in verse 14. In verse 28, Jesus is no longer speaking, it says "When He had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem."

I am not discussing the meaning of the parable here, we must first clarify who is speaking and what is being spoken of. Your reading of this as Jesus saying to His disciples, "Bring here those enemies of mine and slay them" is not correct. I don't mind debating this with you, and I know you don't believe in Jesus and I'm not trying to trick you into admitting you do or something like that, but we have to at least agree on the text. It is up to you to continue the debate, and I won't force you to or start a flame war with you, but the debate needs to be in good faith, and you need to see the proper context of this verse that you are using to criticize Jesus. If you can criticize Jesus legitimately, then do so, but don't twist a verse in order to do so, that would not please G-d as you see Him or as I see Him.

Walwor you still do not seem to be making any sense out of this Luke chapter.

1) You say that Jesus himself is speaking from Luke 19:12 -27.

You quote in this Jesus parable the following:

"Verse 25- But they said to him, "Master, he has ten minas." Verse 26- the nobleman replies that to everyone who has will be given, and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away."

Is Jesus talking in verses 25 and 26 that you say Jesus was speaking all the way through these verses by Jesus himself?

2. You then say that in verse 27, still Jesus speaking but you now find the nobleman speaking where you said Jesus was speaking all the way through verse 27.

"Verse 27- the nobleman still talking: "But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." Those enemies were referred to in verse 14.

Did the nobelman want to rule over his enemies while ordering their execution?

Did Jesus speak, as you said all the way through verse 27 but quoting the nobleman?

Who were the enemies of the nobleman that made him so mad that he wanted them slain before him?

I am used to many who pull verses and words totally out of context. This still appears to be a rather contorted version of the actual words written in clear English.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

The lesson you are supposed to be learning:

1 Jesus is going away for some time, but when he returns he will come as absolute King.

Did Jesus say that he would be coming back in his kingdom quickly before his disciples would see death? The NT gospel does not mention returning 'some time.'

2 He has given "money" to us to see which are the best managers who will bring the greatest increase -- and to find out which of us are faithful to him.

Exactly how many US greenbacks has he given you to find out if you are a good money manager or investment broker which somehow proves loyalty to a man-god?

3 He will reward his servants according to what they have accomplished.

What exactly do you have to accomplish to be rewarded by Christ as his servant? I thought all you had to do was accept the shed blood of Jesus and you would be in like Flint. What more do you need to do to get that jackpot from Christ?

4 He will punish his enemies. There is no room for rebellious subjects in Christ's Kingdom.

Jesus mother and brothers thought Jesus was a nut. This is described in the NT when they went looking for him and he pretended that he did not know what they were about. Are his mother Mary and his brothers his enemies as well? If G-d created all mankind as His children, why would he punish his children if they didn't believe in Pauline Christianity? It seems that Jesus' heaven is going to be pretty empty.

5 Those who have something when he comes will receive abundantly more. But if we have nothing when he returns, he will give us no more.

Exactly what is that SOMETHING you need when he comes back in that great bye and bye? What do you think that you will get in abudance from having SOMETHING for him when he shows up. Do you think that if Jesus came back tomorrow, you would think him the anti-Christ and nail him to the cross again?

And as I said to you before, the word translated "kill" is Greek katasphazo, "slaughter, strike down." The listeners recalled how King Archelaus slaughtered his enemies, and recognized how the parable was true to life.

The parable was true to life. I don't think that I want anthing to do with such a petty god.

NewGuy you are making it much worse than before.

 

[NewGuy]

Then back up your opinions with proof.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Then back up your opinions with proof.

How much more proof do you need than the multiple versions of the New Testament Gospel? Their contradictions speak volumns that more than verifies proof.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
How much more proof do you need than the multiple versions of the New Testament Gospel? Their contradictions speak volumns that more than verifies proof.

That is not proof.

There may be a correct one.

There IS only 1 public domain version which poetically and literally mirrors the original Greek and Hebrew.

There are always original docs as well.

 

[walwor]

"Verse 25- But they said to him, "Master, he has ten minas." Verse 26- the nobleman replies that to everyone who has will be given, and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away."

Is Jesus talking in verses 25 and 26 that you say Jesus was speaking all the way through these verses by Jesus himself?

2. You then say that in verse 27, still Jesus speaking but you now find the nobleman speaking where you said Jesus was speaking all the way through verse 27.

"Verse 27- the nobleman still talking: "But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." Those enemies were referred to in verse 14.

Did the nobelman want to rule over his enemies while ordering their execution?

Did Jesus speak, as you said all the way through verse 27 but quoting the nobleman?

Who were the enemies of the nobleman that made him so mad that he wanted them slain before him?

This is not so difficult, aj. At some point I will cease to try to debate with you in good faith. You wish to debate the meaning of the parable when I am trying merely to set the boundaries of the text. The parable goes up to verse 27. What is the debate? You ask,

Did the nobelman want to rule over his enemies while ordering their execution?

Did Jesus speak, as you said all the way through verse 27 but quoting the nobleman?

yes, it was Jesus speaking the parable. How can I make it any clearer?

 

[freeandfun1]

aj is an atheist that thinks he has all the answers. he makes false claims (reminiscent of the false prophets that the Bible, that he makes fun of, metions) and does not debate based on facts. He takes things out of context and then ignores others that point out his errors. Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time with him if I were you.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy
That is not proof.

There may be a correct one.

There IS only 1 public domain version which poetically and literally mirrors the original Greek and Hebrew.

There are always original docs as well.

Proof comes with the fact that the many versions of the New Testament contradict each other as well as the four books in the Gospels contradict one another.

You say that "there may be a correct one." Maybe perhaps the moon is made of green cheese.

The only one public domain version (poetic and literal) mirrors the totally absent original versions of the Gospels.

Which one do YOU consider to be the true version? Why do you feel that the version YOU consider has any more reality than King James of England?

Where are those original docs you speak of as no one has seen them. Never ever......

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by freeandfun1

aj is an atheist that thinks he has all the answers. he makes false claims (reminiscent of the false prophets that the Bible, that he makes fun of, metions) and does not debate based on facts. He takes things out of context and then ignores others that point out his errors. Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time with him if I were you.

First: I am not an atheist.

Two: You find yourself unable to respond to reality instead of simply relying on faith without any substance.

Then you accuse me of those things in which you find yourself entrapped by your inability to explain in a cogent manner or with any valid arguments with which to refute.

Frankly, you do not wish to waste your valuable time as you have no response.

You are very typical of most proselitizers who find themselves naked and bare but would like to keep your suit of Christ's armor because your salvation is at question.

Good Luck...

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by William Joyce
Ariel Sharon dies and goes to heaven. When he gets there God meets him and he tells him he is going to give him a tour of heaven. After the tour is over he God takes Sharon to the place he will be living. When he gets there it is a small, dirty old shack with a little star of david on it. Next to it is a huge, luxurious mansion with swastikas on it. Sharon says to God "why did you give Hitler such a big house?" to which God replies "Hitler? That’s my house!"

How does that qualify as a joke?

 

[freeandfun1]

I posted a very concise reply to your mis-characterization of the verses you covered in another thread, but of course, you totally ignored what I attempted to make clear to you as you cannot argue my point. Now who is left naked?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by walwor

This is not so difficult, aj. At some point I will cease to try to debate with you in good faith. You wish to debate the meaning of the parable when I am trying merely to set the boundaries of the text. The parable goes up to verse 27. What is the debate? You ask, yes, it was Jesus speaking the parable. How can I make it any clearer?

You find parables where none exist. You state that it was Jesus speaking but you plainly see that it was not only Jesus speaking but others as well.

Christ's words (by your own admission) states in a parable or in outright sincerity that he wishes his enemies to be brought before him and slain.

This is the god that turns the other cheek, the peacemaker, the Messiah to bring peace to the earth instead of discord and yet his real persona comes out in his words or parables or anything you want to call it.

How can I make it any clearaer???

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by freeandfun1

I posted a very concise reply to your mis-characterization of the verses you covered in another thread, but of course, you totally ignored what I attempted to make clear to you as you cannot argue my point. Now who is left naked?

Yes you always covered these little mis-characterizations in another post. You said I ignored your attempts to make your points clear.

Your points were carefully covered and answered but, of course, if it does not agree with you then of course it is me that doesn't understand.

Keep your suit of Jesus' free salvation. You will definitely need whatever you have when your time comes and you come before your maker.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by nycflasher

How does that qualify as a joke?

For a real Nazi that qualifies as anything he thinks it is. For to not laugh at his joke, you are surely destined to be eliminated in the gas chamber.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by ajwps
For a real Nazi that qualifies as anything he thinks it is. For to not laugh at his joke, you are surely destined to be eliminated in the gas chamber.

I think Joyce IS the joke...

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
Proof comes with the fact that the many versions of the New Testament contradict each other as well as the four books in the Gospels contradict one another.

That isn't proof. How do you dare call yourself a man of medicine when you cannot logically prove "a" linearly to "b"?

Versions differ because many men make their own cults: mormons, jehova's witnesses, catholics, etc. They do not use the same text, they make what they want and create power structures for egotistical, political, and economic gain.

The Gospels DO NOT CONTRADICT each other, when true text is looked at.

You say that "there may be a correct one." Maybe perhaps the moon is made of green cheese.

If I went by that logic, and you were the only physician I had ever met, I would conclude nobody anywhere could ever know medicine.

The only one public domain version (poetic and literal) mirrors the totally absent original versions of the Gospels.

Gee. Thats funny. I already told you where they were in other posts.

Which one do YOU consider to be the true version? Why do you feel that the version YOU consider has any more reality than King James of England?

What do you care? You just want a leg to stand on to claim your ego a foothold over the rest of humanity.

Where are those original docs you speak of as no one has seen them. Never ever......

Considering I pointed them out to you before, I see it pointless to do so again. Others HAVE seen them, you have not. Why? You will not open your eyes.

Closing ones eyes to death will not save them from death.

 

[walwor]

You find parables where none exist. You state that it was Jesus speaking but you plainly see that it was not only Jesus speaking but others as well.

You don't tell me what I plainly see. I don't put words in your mouth, don't put them in mine. This is a parable, a story, told by Jesus. In a story, one may quote someone. It's so obvious it's unbelievable to me that you don't see it, but I wouldn't stoop so low as to tell you that you plainly see it when you don't. You are forcing me to not take you seriously, not because we disagree, but because you are obnoxious. That makes me sad, because I have the same opinion of the bigot, and I prefer not to have that opinion of you because you have said some things which I respect.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by walwor

You don't tell me what I plainly see. I don't put words in your mouth, don't put them in mine. This is a parable, a story, told by Jesus. In a story, one may quote someone. It's so obvious it's unbelievable to me that you don't see it, but I wouldn't stoop so low as to tell you that you plainly see it when you don't. You are forcing me to not take you seriously, not because we disagree, but because you are obnoxious. That makes me sad, because I have the same opinion of the bigot, and I prefer not to have that opinion of you because you have said some things which I respect.

Frustrated are we? Resorting to name calling and claims that you find a parable passable as lacking meaning of the words said by Jesus.

Only Jesus had reason to want his enemies brought before him to be slain.

This is no parable teaching a lesson for mankind to learn, simply the violence of this man who would be a god.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by NewGuy

That isn't proof. How do you dare call yourself a man of medicine when you cannot logically prove "a" linearly to "b"?

The Gospels DO NOT CONTRADICT each other, when true text is looked at.

Okay let me give just a few Gospel contradictions by Chapter and Verse. You are truly unable to understand, aren't you?
=========================================

What time did the women visit the tomb?
Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)

Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)

Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)

John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Who were the women?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)

Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)

Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)

John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

What was their purpose?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)

Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)

Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)

John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

Was the tomb open when they arrived?
Matthew: No (28:2)

Mark: Yes (16:4)

Luke: Yes (24:2)

John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)

Mark: One young man (16:5)

Luke: Two men (24:4)

John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)

Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)

Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)

John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

What did the messenger(s) say?
Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

Did the women tell what happened?
Matthew: Yes (28:8)

Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)

Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)

John: Yes (20:18)

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)

Mark: Yes (16:10,11)

Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)

John: No (20:2)

When did Mary first see Jesus?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)

Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)

John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
Matthew: Yes (28:9)

John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)

Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)

Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)

John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)

Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)

Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)

Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)

John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Did the disciples believe the two men?
Mark: No (16:13)

Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)

What happened at the appearance?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)

Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)

Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)

John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday

Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday

John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)

Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

 

[KLSuddeth]

Hi Mustafa!
Quick surgery. what kind was it?