Government provided Health Care

[Care4all]

By the way, all currently run Government Health care IS rationed also. That INCLUDES Military health Care. Active duty which gets the best treatment still does not have access to new procedures or medications until or unless the Government decides they should, a slow cumbersome process at the best of times. Medicare and Medicaid are also rationed.

The VA hospital is a good example of a reason to NOT have the government run health care. It has improved much over the last few years but its still not as good as it should be. A good friend of mine is a marine who got his knee all screwed up in AFG. They kept pushing him off and making him wait for the proper treatment. It took 2 months for him to get to see a doctor back home. Then it took 4 more months for the specialist. Another 2 months for the surgery, but they got him into physical therapy pretty fast.

Another good example is the poor handling of the H1N1 vaccine distribution.


Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it -Someone Smart

i disagree with your comment on h1n1, i saw a hearing on c-span and the Doctors and scientists questioned said that for some reason, unbeknown to them, h1n1 does not grow in their culture very fast...10 times slower than any flu vaccine they've had to make or grow in the past....is what the scientists are saying....this is why the doses are so much short of their purchase for the vaccine.

maybe this is not what you were commenting on? and you were commenting on how big corporations got supply before hospital workers did? yep, that was a mess up, for certain.

 

[Harry Dresden]

All you cowardly Liberals running away from this discussion. And you have the balls to whine in threads where it is pointed out that rationing is going to happen. Cowards one and all.

i agree with ya RGS.....over in the other threads on this i have asked the same couple of questions,about rationing, to the people pushing this over there,like Rocks and Chris....and just the other day another guy......no answers.....nothing....and Rocks is the greatest dancer since Fred Astair....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

This keeps dying, none of the Liberals will touch it. Cowards.

 

[Emma]

ALL healthcare is rationed. It's not an infinite resource.

 

[Emma]

By the way, all currently run Government Health care IS rationed also. That INCLUDES Military health Care. Active duty which gets the best treatment still does not have access to new procedures or medications until or unless the Government decides they should, a slow cumbersome process at the best of times. Medicare and Medicaid are also rationed.

The VA hospital is a good example of a reason to NOT have the government run health care. It has improved much over the last few years but its still not as good as it should be. A good friend of mine is a marine who got his knee all screwed up in AFG. They kept pushing him off and making him wait for the proper treatment. It took 2 months for him to get to see a doctor back home. Then it took 4 more months for the specialist. Another 2 months for the surgery, but they got him into physical therapy pretty fast.

Another good example is the poor handling of the H1N1 vaccine distribution.


Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it -Someone Smart

i disagree with your comment on h1n1, i saw a hearing on c-span and the Doctors and scientists questioned said that for some reason, unbeknown to them, h1n1 does not grow in their culture very fast...10 times slower than any flu vaccine they've had to make or grow in the past....is what the scientists are saying....this is why the doses are so much short of their purchase for the vaccine.

And because of the unusual timing of the virus, production started approximately 2 months behind.

 

[Emma]

Since all healthcare is rationed, the question for me is do I want those decisions to rest with corporations whose sole reason for existence is to make a profit --- profits which depend upon insuring the healthiest among us, and denying coverage for those whom they may have to pay claims? Corporations where profits are dependent on NOT providing the services I pay for? That can at any point in time decide to cancel my policy, leaving me without any coverage at all and no prospects of obtaining coverage on my own? That spend 1/3 of their revenue in administrative overhead?

No thanks.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Since all healthcare is rationed, the question for me is do I want those decisions to rest with corporations whose sole reason for existence is to make a profit --- profits which depend upon insuring the healthiest among us, and denying coverage for those whom they may have to pay claims? Corporations where profits are dependent on NOT providing the services I pay for? That can at any point in time decide to cancel my policy, leaving me without any coverage at all and no prospects of obtaining coverage on my own? That spend 1/3 of their revenue in administrative overhead?

No thanks.

Instead you will give it to a faceless nameless Government agency that will do everything it can to prevent the elderly and the young from getting treatment and as that won't stop the spiral of increasing costs they will add other groups, other procedures other drugs to the list.

Lets put this in perspective shall we? The Government runs medicare and medicaid and can not control costs, continues to slash options and coverage. This program is just for the handicapped the elderly and the poor, what makes you think SUDDENLY when they take over the whole population they will do better?

All one need do is look to those Utopias in Europe, none of them are doing well. Socialize medicine does not work on the scale of Countries. The US Government can not afford medicare, why in the heavens do you think suddenly if they add everyone they will have a little light go on and understand how to run the programs?

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

 

[Emma]

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

The primary reasons why Medicare runs in the red is the majority of those covered by medicare subsidized by payroll taxes aren't paying premiums. Only $2.9 billion of its income of nearly $231 billion comes from its client base --- which are statistically the sickest demographic (seniors and disabled) and with a larger healthier client base, that means more money in revenue vs expenditures.

Cover everyone with Medicare, and the size and overall health of their client base goes up along with the revenue income from premiums.

 

[editec]

Of course HC will be rationed.

It's rationed now.

It would be rationed no matter what system we come up with.

There's more demand than supply.

Always will be, too

 

[code1211]

It's already happening. My insurance has changed for the worse, and my 75 y.o. mother talked to me last night saying her premium for her retirement health care, which she picked up from working years as a nurse at a VA hospital, increased from something like $90 per month to $130. Plus she pays $200 + for her med "co pays".

In addition, I have medicare clients coming to my office in droves confused by the fact that they are suddenly having to change pharmacies and providers....and this is huge because here in rural America, that means driving hundreds of miles to fill prescriptions, if your local pharmacy is no longer on the "go to" list.

It's putting our local pharmacy out of business, and they're heartbroken about it. We have 2 pharmacies in our area, and they've been outed. Which means my clients, who live in them middle of nowhere, now have to drive or be driven hundreds of miles out of their way. Not an easy thing for people who don't have cars or are unable to drive, who aren't familiar with the towns and pharmacies they must now go to, and are confused by the whole nightmare.

Many of them will go without because of it, and die.

What you are saying is obviously a lie. This could never happen under the enlightened leadership of the faultless Pelosi and Reid. The Prez would not stand for this, if only he knew.

It's time to realize that this corrupt and ill guided crowd in the top reaches of government is out to strip the wealth and freedom from anyone who has it. That so many are rooting them on is disgusting in its stupidity.

Those on the left were insistant that GWB was not only aware of governmental actions but was responsible for every one of them and for every natural and unnatural event that was bad. Now, they give the Dems a pass on anything bad as it was the fault of Bush and magnify even the slightest good thing as it happened after Bush had wrecked everything.

In another goervment of the recent past, the Leader was given a pass on everything as he was believed to not be "in the loop". It's a clever political device if a guy can pull it off. It requires government control of the media.

Thankfully, this administration never tries to control the media.

Führer [email protected]

The creation of what is known as the "Führer Myth" was a clever way of ensuring the population's support. Created first within the Nazi Party and later transmitted to the general community, this myth depicted Hitler as the man of the people who would bring about national unity and harmony. In fact, strong opposition to the ways of the leaders in the earlier days of the Weimar Republic made it appear that Germany had already attained a near-Utopian level. Promoted by Goebbel's Ministry of Propaganda, the Führer Myth played off the people's deep humiliation and insult of the Treaty of Versailles. Goebbels also presented the successful Nazi foreign policy and the military triumphs of 1936-42 as proof of Germany's godlike leader. Hitler's appeal was largely due to his seemingly straightforward ways: unlike earlier politicians he did not care for pleasantries and political correctness. The purge of the SA in 1934 was widely seen as part of a campaign against violence and hence gave Hitler the image of a representative of law and order. Indeed, many responded to harassment by Hitler's thugs with comments like "If only the Führer knew . . ."

 

[driveby]

You libbys are sidestepping RGS's point with the excuse of "well it's already rationed". Look at what this administration has already done with the deficits. If they take over healthcare, god help us when they go hardcore in trying to reduce the deficit.......

 

[Care4all]

we are going down like a rock....

and obama ain't a smidgen of the reasons why....

i heard this morning on c-span the State governments in the us have a $234 TRILLION dollar obligation to government employee retirements.

And the federal government has similar obligations for the retirement pensions and health care fof their exemployees, and the military with their exemployees....

i don't know if this health care proposal of the Dems will reduce the speed of the health care prices or save some money in the long run....or cost us more, but even without one thing done with this health care bill....

we, as a country, are in deep deep crapola.

 

[dilloduck]

we are going down like a rock....

and obama ain't a smidgen of the reasons why....

i heard this morning on c-span the State governments in the us have a $234 TRILLION dollar obligation to government employee retirements.

And the federal government has similar obligations for the retirement pensions and health care fof their exemployees, and the military with their exemployees....

i don't know if this health care proposal of the Dems will reduce the speed of the health care prices or save some money in the long run....or cost us more, but even without one thing done with this health care bill....

we, as a country, are in deep deep crapola.

That's what happens when you try to live off the backs of the successful hardworking people and live beyond your means

 

[Care4all]

we are going down like a rock....

and obama ain't a smidgen of the reasons why....

i heard this morning on c-span the State governments in the us have a $234 TRILLION dollar obligation to government employee retirements.

And the federal government has similar obligations for the retirement pensions and health care fof their exemployees, and the military with their exemployees....

i don't know if this health care proposal of the Dems will reduce the speed of the health care prices or save some money in the long run....or cost us more, but even without one thing done with this health care bill....

we, as a country, are in deep deep crapola.

That's what happens when you try to live off the backs of the successful hardworking people and live beyond your means

I don't understand?

Are those of us who have not worked for the government "the backs of the successful hard working people", and the ones trying to live off of us 'retired government workers'?

 

[dilloduck]

we are going down like a rock....

and obama ain't a smidgen of the reasons why....

i heard this morning on c-span the State governments in the us have a $234 TRILLION dollar obligation to government employee retirements.

And the federal government has similar obligations for the retirement pensions and health care fof their exemployees, and the military with their exemployees....

i don't know if this health care proposal of the Dems will reduce the speed of the health care prices or save some money in the long run....or cost us more, but even without one thing done with this health care bill....

we, as a country, are in deep deep crapola.

That's what happens when you try to live off the backs of the successful hardworking people and live beyond your means

I don't understand?

Are those of us who have not worked for the government "the backs of the successful hard working people", and the ones trying to live off of us 'retired government workers'?

Every cent the goverment has comes from taxes----where do you think they get they money to pay the employees ?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

The primary reasons why Medicare runs in the red is the majority of those covered by medicare subsidized by payroll taxes aren't paying premiums. Only $2.9 billion of its income of nearly $231 billion comes from its client base --- which are statistically the sickest demographic (seniors and disabled) and with a larger healthier client base, that means more money in revenue vs expenditures.

Cover everyone with Medicare, and the size and overall health of their client base goes up along with the revenue income from premiums.

EVERYONE that works pays into medicare. EVERYONE. There is no other way to put it. Medicare is already subsidized by OUR TAXES from every person in this country that works. And it fails miserably.

 

[Ravi]

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

The primary reasons why Medicare runs in the red is the majority of those covered by medicare subsidized by payroll taxes aren't paying premiums. Only $2.9 billion of its income of nearly $231 billion comes from its client base --- which are statistically the sickest demographic (seniors and disabled) and with a larger healthier client base, that means more money in revenue vs expenditures.

Cover everyone with Medicare, and the size and overall health of their client base goes up along with the revenue income from premiums.

EVERYONE that works pays into medicare. EVERYONE. There is no other way to put it. Medicare is already subsidized by OUR TAXES from every person in this country that works. And it fails miserably.

No it doesn't.

 

[Care4all]

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

The primary reasons why Medicare runs in the red is the majority of those covered by medicare subsidized by payroll taxes aren't paying premiums. Only $2.9 billion of its income of nearly $231 billion comes from its client base --- which are statistically the sickest demographic (seniors and disabled) and with a larger healthier client base, that means more money in revenue vs expenditures.

Cover everyone with Medicare, and the size and overall health of their client base goes up along with the revenue income from premiums.

EVERYONE that works pays into medicare. EVERYONE. There is no other way to put it. Medicare is already subsidized by OUR TAXES from every person in this country that works. And it fails miserably.

I'm not sure that is true. those who make their income, their living, through investments do NOT PAY MEDICARE taxes.

And it does not fail miserably, if we had NO medicare at all, then look at it...you will KNOW what failure is.

 

[American Horse]

Since all healthcare is rationed, the question for me is do I want those decisions to rest with corporations whose sole reason for existence is to make a profit --- profits which depend upon insuring the healthiest among us, and denying coverage for those whom they may have to pay claims? Corporations where profits are dependent on NOT providing the services I pay for? That can at any point in time decide to cancel my policy, leaving me without any coverage at all and no prospects of obtaining coverage on my own? That spend 1/3 of their revenue in administrative overhead?

No thanks.

But with the current system we have choices. We can leave the company we are insured by and move on to another. This ability to choose is competition. With the government in charge there is no such choice, no competition, and the only limitation on costs will be effective rationing.

I would support legislation that enforced an annual open enrollment so that the insured could elect to go to another company once a year to get away from those companies which fail to meet their expectations. This would seem to resolve the problem(s) just brought up. That sort of legislation would be within the proper role of government.

Medicare enrollees have that option, and can use it annually with their supplemental insurance policy. I’m electing to do that this year to lower my rate by some 22-percent. The only limitation was that I could not change if I had internal cancer within the last two years. My skin cancer, which is an ongoing condition, did not prevent my changing to another company.
.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>
Lets put this in perspective shall we? The Government runs medicare and medicaid and can not control costs, continues to slash options and coverage. This program is just for the handicapped the elderly and the poor, what makes you think SUDDENLY when they take over the whole population they will do better?

All one need do is look to those Utopias in Europe, none of them are doing well. Socialize medicine does not work on the scale of Countries. The US Government can not afford medicare, why in the heavens do you think suddenly if they add everyone they will have a little light go on and understand how to run the programs?

We can not afford socialized medicine. We already can not afford medicare. Yet by adding MILLIONS more suddenly all will be fine?

This is an important point. The utopias of Europe have had more than a century of experimentation in socialized systems. If anyone could do it well they should be able to. To the degree it works for them they rely on America's free market system to bring to them the new treatments and technologies to support their failed state system, and they always have a safe haven in America to which their wealthy can flee to get what they need in a timely fashion. .

American bureaucracies can't hold a candle to those of Europe. The US military, held up as an example of a "can do" government agency succeeds so well because it is a meritocracy, not your usual bureaucracy. To the extent the old fashioned bureaucracy plays a role in the military system, Walter Reed Hospital is a typical example, just like those mentioned by RGS; the failure is there for anyone to see.