Germany Generated 74 Percent Of Power Needs From Renewable Energy

[Pogo]

Honestly, I was thinking of Merkel's Socialist E. German political roots and her flirtations with the very active Green Party in Germany today. And whilst you think this a joke, people ARE GONNA DIE with this kind of ill-conceived energy policy..

Yyyyah. Sell that in Chernobyl.

Probably sell like hot uranium cakes in Chernobyl.. Since that was also a failure of Socialist Central planning and management and NOT an indication of the failure of a technology.

Seems to be a pattern here -- Hmmmmmmm......................

"Not a failure of technology"??

That'll sell even better, especially in the Zone of Alienation. I'm sure the victims will be happy to know they were done in by ideology rather than radiation.

Oh the butthurt. It must hurt the butt considering what it does to the mind...

 

[flacaltenn]

Yyyyah. Sell that in Chernobyl.

Probably sell like hot uranium cakes in Chernobyl.. Since that was also a failure of Socialist Central planning and management and NOT an indication of the failure of a technology.

Seems to be a pattern here -- Hmmmmmmm......................

"Not a failure of technology"??

That'll sell even better, especially in the Zone of Alienation. I'm sure the victims will be happy to know they were done in by ideology rather than radiation.

Oh the butthurt. It must hurt the butt considering what it does to the mind...

Oh the ignorance... Only if you HAD a mind.

You don't know why Chernobyl became a mess do you? There have literally been books written on the government failure to properly design, maintain, and test at Chernobyl. With many high-ranking observers tying to fall of the Soviet Union to the incompetencies and LIES associated with this disaster.. If you HAD a brain -- I'd discuss it with you..

 

[Pogo]

Probably sell like hot uranium cakes in Chernobyl.. Since that was also a failure of Socialist Central planning and management and NOT an indication of the failure of a technology.

Seems to be a pattern here -- Hmmmmmmm......................

"Not a failure of technology"??

That'll sell even better, especially in the Zone of Alienation. I'm sure the victims will be happy to know they were done in by ideology rather than radiation.

Oh the butthurt. It must hurt the butt considering what it does to the mind...

Oh the ignorance... Only if you HAD a mind.

You don't know why Chernobyl became a mess do you? There have literally been books written on the government failure to properly design, maintain, and test at Chernobyl. With many high-ranking observers tying to fall of the Soviet Union to the incompetencies and LIES associated with this disaster.. If you HAD a brain -- I'd discuss it with you..

Tell me world-o-hurt -- how many get exterminated when an incompetent gummint fails to maintain a wind turbine? What's the Zone of Alienation like after a solar farm blows up?

Sheeeeeeeeesh....

Yes Virginia, there's a good reason innovators look for new methods. Can't say the same for those who stand on the sidelines trying to shout them down.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I just don't understand how you can be for limiting carbon emissions and anti-Nuclear. Kind of conflicts.

If they are stupid enough to believe that can replace all their nuclear with wind and solar, they are gonna literally kill thousands od people in the near future.. German technologists are not stupid, but theres a history of ending up with crazy and dangerous leadership...

You know, usually I would let this get by, but your passing reference to the Nazi times is just so fucking batshit crazy, I am gonna have to respond to this one.

Fact:

1.) Use of renewable energy has nothing to do with 1933-1945. Any attempt make a connection between the two is totally foolish. Renewable energy did not exist between 1933-1945.

2.) To say that moving to renewable energy is going to kill people is just plain old stupid. Where is your PROOF that this is going to happen? Do you have statistics about people who have been killed by solar panels and wind/water turbines? Really?

So, let me give you some inside information:

I live 10 kilometers from a wind farm that works perfectly. There are, I believe, 21 turbines in action there. It was created in agreement with farmers, who allow part of the land to be used for wind turbines, who also allow solar panels to be put on their buildings, and they still farm and their animals still graze. Even with the many grey skies that Germany has - the wind energy output here is immense.

I live 20 Kilometers from one of the larger solar farms in the world. The installation is right along the A3 Highway between Siegburg and Frankfurt and covers a huge amount of energy needs.

While American energy bills are going UP, German energy bills are going DOWN.

The cost for converting to Wind/Solar/Water is now at parity with the costs for maintaining a fossil fuel lifestyle in Germany, about 3 years AHEAD of the original calculations.

I just compared my per Kilowatt price with the price that my sister in Ohio pays and was shocked to see that I pay less per month that she does. Actually, considerable less.

The biggest controversy, the one that actually spurred the German government to do what it is doing, was the decision to completely shut down nuclear energy by 2023:

Liste der Kernreaktoren in Deutschland ? Wikipedia

Germany once had 110 reactors, it now has 14 still functioning. 5 of those were supposed to go offline in 2011, but a court case is being fought over them. The last nine are supposed to go offline by December, 2022 at the latest. There are also 8 research reactors still functioning, but not for creating energy to go into the energy-net.

Of course, in order to reduce energy from nuclear, Germany had to IMPORT energy from somewhere else until the solar/wind/water project is completed, and Germany made the mistake of importing lots of energy from nuclear reactors from the Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia), reactors in terrible shape. By importing more and more energy from those reactors, not only was it totally hypocritical of Germany to do this, it was dangerous, for those reactors started pumping overtime in order to meet the extra energy needs of other countries like Germany. If there are any reactors in Europe that need to be shut down right now, as in, like yesterday, then it would be the reactors from those three small nations. When the German population found out about this in 2009, there was a large outcry. And now Germany is no longer importing from the Baltic States.

Call it what you want out of utter ignorance if that pleases you, but Germany is undoubtedly leading the way in the field of renewables: solar, wind, water. They are doing it less with water, because Germany is mostly landlocked and only a small part of the country has a coastline with the North Sea / Atlantic Ocean.

Not only that, when Germany does reach 80% of it's energy from renewables, it won't have to import at all. In fact, in the forseeable future, Germany will be EXPORTING a lot of energy from renewable energy sources. And we are not even talking about fusion - a subject for another day.

Germany has done this because it had to. Necessity is often the mother of invention, and it is definitely the case here. Germany has very few fossil fuel resources left - oil and coal. Most of those resources were used up in WWII. This is fact that most Americans do not know. In fact, the dearth of coal is what led to the Coal/Steel Pact between Germany and France in the early 1950s, just years after the most bitter war in our planet's history ended, even as feelings between those two nations were very, very hard. And that pact is what led to the Franco/Geman Friendship pact of 1963, just 18 years after the end of WWII.

The same lack of natural (fossil fuel) resources is what spurred Germany to move to renewables ahead of the rest of the world. As my ex-father-in-law has often said to me: "Germany's greatest export good is here" - and he would point to his brain, meaning that German know-how, German innovation, which is exported all over the world, fuels a lot of it's economy, which, as you will note, is doing better than the US economy.

Yes, it is true that at the onset, Solar and wind costs more money to put in place and also requires SOME fossil fuels to even build the components. But in the long run, those things last 1000 times longer, or more. Which means that they pay for themselves with time. That SHOULD be a Conservative battle cry, but once again, Conservatives around the world have totally dropped the ball over an issue that could easily be theirs.

So, I have presented cold, hard facts. Where are yours?

To even suggest that the use of renewables is going to kill people in the future is just plain batshit crazy. And then, for you to suggest that this is because the this is a problem because "but theres a history of ending up with crazy and dangerous leadership" is just so batshit crazy, I don't know even where to begin with you. Do Godwin much? How idiotic.

Next time, before you shoot your mouth off about a country I bet you have never even visited, why not ask someone who actually lives there?


[MENTION=30473]flacaltenn[/MENTION]
[MENTION=41527]Pogo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=42916]Derideo_Te[/MENTION] (it's not deceleration, but it's close!!)

 

[Statistikhengst]

Oh, and I forgot to mention this quote from the OP:

What’s more, “in Germany you have the option of earning back your payments, and far more, by investing as little as $600 in renewable energy yourself,” Lovins writes. “Citizens, cooperatives, and communities own more than half of German renewable capacity, vs. two percent in the U.S.”

I, good capitalist that I am, am already investing. I own stock in renewables in Germany. Even the most Right-Wing political party in Germany, the FDP, is strongly behind renewables. That says something.

 

[Statistikhengst]

If they are stupid enough to believe that can replace all their nuclear with wind and solar, they are gonna literally kill thousands od people in the near future.. German technologists are not stupid, but theres a history of ending up with crazy and dangerous leadership...

^^ So butthurt that somebody's using renewables that he invokes Hitler...

Honestly, I was thinking of Merkel's Socialist E. German political roots and her flirtations with the very active Green Party in Germany today. And whilst you think this a joke, people ARE GONNA DIE with this kind of ill-conceived energy policy..

RealClearEnergy | German Energy Policy Is Failing the Poor


The German government recently said that 6.9 million households live in energy poverty, defined as spending more than 10 per cent of their income on energy. This is partly a result of Germany's Energiewende, the country’s turn away from nuclear and towards renewable energies. This year alone, German consumers are expected to subsidize green energy to the tune of a whopping €23.6 billion ($33 billion) on top of their normal electricity bills for the so-called “renewable energies reallocation charge.”

German consumers have already paid €109 billion for renewable energies since 2000, with greater costs looming on the horizon. Between 2000 and 2013, real German electricity prices for households have increased 80%. About one quarter of household electricity costs now stem directly from renewable energy.

Green energy can’t meet Germany’s need for reliable electricity – what do you do when the sun doesn’t shine or the wind doesn’t blow? That is why Germany still needs to base itself on fossil fuels, and it is one of the reasons that the consumption of polluting brown coal rose last year to its highest level since 1990. Thus, German CO2-emissions have risen since the nuclear phase-out of 2011, despite the incredible subsidies for renewables

You think that Angela Merkel is a socialist just because she was born in the former East Germany?


Really?

The CDU is not a Socialist party. You have a lot to learn about Germany. A lot.


Oh, and what a fucking stupid article. Promoting Wind, Water and Solar IS green innovation.

Bjorn Lomborg, a crazy assed Rightie in Europe, IS the Copenhagen Concensus Center, the organizations he claims to write-for.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Copenhagen_Consensus

So, RCP picked the most crazy of the Righties in Europe to front page an article.

Color me totally surprised.

Here's the deal: Germans know better than that.

 

[eagle1462010]

 

[Statistikhengst]

Prices from 2011 -


THREE YEARS AGO.


It claims that the average in Germany is 35 Cents pro Kilowatt Hour.

I pay 22 Eurocents per Kilowatt hour:

http://www.stadtwerke-bonn.de/energieundwasser/privatkunden/produkte/strom/bonnbasis.html

That is US 30 cents, 5 cents under the price listed in your graphic.

My sister pays 31 US cents per kilowatt hour, and has surcharges, including TAX, also in the bill.


But there is more:

In Germany, the tax is ALREADY in the quoted figure of 22 Euro Cents.

See, this is another area where Righties who like to quote old figures look incredibly ignorant.

I bet that you didn't know that in Germany, tax is ALREADY in the basic price, now did you?

So, the graphic is worthless.

 

[eagle1462010]

Germany Amends Green-Energy Regime to Curb Rise in Prices - WSJ.com

BERLIN—The German government has amended renewable-energy laws meant to help make the country nuclear-free but that have sent power prices rocketing—squeezing consumers and the country's formidable export machine.

The cabinet approved amendments on Tuesday that it said would contain soaring electricity costs while seeking to protect German jobs in the industrial sector. The changes include less ambitious targets for wind power and a cut in subsidies for certain forms of green energy.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's "energy transformation," a bold and initially popular experiment to make Germany the first major industrial economy to run largely on green energy, has met strong resistance from companies and households faced with steep rises in power costs.

 

[eagle1462010]

I have trouble believing you Statist.

I just posted an article about soaring prices that is from this year. Why are they exempting businesses from the subsidy taxes there...................Could it be that it is having an effect on their bottom line........................

Doesn't matter anyway. The U.S. is completely different anyway. And I know that the attack on the coal industry is causing our prices to go up. Every where these new power plants are going up, the prices to consumers are going up. In my neck of the woods it has gone up about 15% because of ONE PLANT. Kemper Power Plant. Which is attempting to comply with EPA for burning coal underground.

It is expected to go up again. The cost overrun's for this experimental plant were well over 2 BILLION DOLLARS over budget.

The cost of replacing approximately 40 to 45% of our grid to kill coal will be DEVASTATING to every one's power bills here. The current attack on it will hurt the poor more than any other group of people as they are the least able to pay for the increases.

Your country has attempted to have industry to absorb a good portion of the cost, so people like you will say it's cheaper, when reality is quite different.

On another angle. To get a decent sized grid installed in a standard home here, consumers would have to pay about 35 k for the system. That is 10k to 12k systems. That does not include the installation. The cost savings over time for this system would take over 20 years to recoup the cost benefits.

Until you can sell solar with lower time periods for break even, you don't have a dog in this hunt. But of course by raising the prices of our power by attacking fossil fuels, you DRIVE PRICES UP making GREEN LOOK MORE AFFORDABLE.

Which is BS.

 

[Old Rocks]

Even as the 'Conservative' wingnuts mewl and puke over solar and wind, making all kinds of ridiculous claims, reality is biting their silly asses.

Solar Industry Data | SEIA

2013 was another record year for the U.S. solar industry. There were 4,751 MW of new photovoltaic (PV) capacity installed in 2013, representing a 41 percent increase in deployment over installation levels in 2012. Solar accounted for 29 percent of all new electricity generation capacity added in 2013, up from just 10 percent in 2012, which made solar the second largest source of new electricity generating capacity behind natural gas. The record year was driven in part by historical growth in the fourth quarter, as 2,106 MW came online in Q4 alone. (All data from SEIA/GTM Research “U.S. Solar Market Insight: 2013 Year in Review” unless otherwise noted.)

A 41% increase in one year alone. That is huge. Do that for several years, and solar will be a major component of the grid in this nation.

 

[Old Rocks]

I have trouble believing you Statist.

I just posted an article about soaring prices that is from this year. Why are they exempting businesses from the subsidy taxes there...................Could it be that it is having an effect on their bottom line........................

Doesn't matter anyway. The U.S. is completely different anyway. And I know that the attack on the coal industry is causing our prices to go up. Every where these new power plants are going up, the prices to consumers are going up. In my neck of the woods it has gone up about 15% because of ONE PLANT. Kemper Power Plant. Which is attempting to comply with EPA for burning coal underground.

It is expected to go up again. The cost overrun's for this experimental plant were well over 2 BILLION DOLLARS over budget.

The cost of replacing approximately 40 to 45% of our grid to kill coal will be DEVASTATING to every one's power bills here. The current attack on it will hurt the poor more than any other group of people as they are the least able to pay for the increases.

Your country has attempted to have industry to absorb a good portion of the cost, so people like you will say it's cheaper, when reality is quite different.

On another angle. To get a decent sized grid installed in a standard home here, consumers would have to pay about 35 k for the system. That is 10k to 12k systems. That does not include the installation. The cost savings over time for this system would take over 20 years to recoup the cost benefits.

Until you can sell solar with lower time periods for break even, you don't have a dog in this hunt. But of course by raising the prices of our power by attacking fossil fuels, you DRIVE PRICES UP making GREEN LOOK MORE AFFORDABLE.

Which is BS.

Damn, fellow you are so full of shit. They are not burning the coal underground, they are attempting to sequester the CO2 in formations underground.

Your prices on solar are also lies. A 5 kw system, including racking, under $8500 at this site, and were you to look at a number of sites, I am sure you could find a better price;

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

 

[Old Rocks]

And if you don't want to install your own system and maintain it, there is this option;

Solar Panels, Solar Power Energy Systems & Energy Efficiency - SolarCity

 

[eagle1462010]

I have trouble believing you Statist.

I just posted an article about soaring prices that is from this year. Why are they exempting businesses from the subsidy taxes there...................Could it be that it is having an effect on their bottom line........................

Doesn't matter anyway. The U.S. is completely different anyway. And I know that the attack on the coal industry is causing our prices to go up. Every where these new power plants are going up, the prices to consumers are going up. In my neck of the woods it has gone up about 15% because of ONE PLANT. Kemper Power Plant. Which is attempting to comply with EPA for burning coal underground.

It is expected to go up again. The cost overrun's for this experimental plant were well over 2 BILLION DOLLARS over budget.

The cost of replacing approximately 40 to 45% of our grid to kill coal will be DEVASTATING to every one's power bills here. The current attack on it will hurt the poor more than any other group of people as they are the least able to pay for the increases.

Your country has attempted to have industry to absorb a good portion of the cost, so people like you will say it's cheaper, when reality is quite different.

On another angle. To get a decent sized grid installed in a standard home here, consumers would have to pay about 35 k for the system. That is 10k to 12k systems. That does not include the installation. The cost savings over time for this system would take over 20 years to recoup the cost benefits.

Until you can sell solar with lower time periods for break even, you don't have a dog in this hunt. But of course by raising the prices of our power by attacking fossil fuels, you DRIVE PRICES UP making GREEN LOOK MORE AFFORDABLE.

Which is BS.

Damn, fellow you are so full of shit. They are not burning the coal underground, they are attempting to sequester the CO2 in formations underground.

Your prices on solar are also lies. A 5 kw system, including racking, under $8500 at this site, and were you to look at a number of sites, I am sure you could find a better price;

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

So sue me. Sequester it is. These costs are being passed on to the consumer.

On the second issue, perhaps you are correct. I just priced checked some 12k grid systems and they have come down in price from back when I was looking into it.

On a quick hit the 12k system was at 18k.

 

[Old Rocks]

Yep. And, considering those costs, wind and solar are cheaper. A 12 kw system would power a very large home and shop, with EV's as well, unless you live in a area with very little sun.

Solar allows the homeowner to be both a consumer and producer of energy. With storage, you have the ability to comfortably ride out grid failure. And if you have an EV, then your transportation is also independent of corperations greed. Most conservatives are very much for individual independence, both in political and economic freedom. It totally baffles me that now we have 'Conservatives' that act as if you seek energy independence you are a traitor. A traitor to the energy corperations? Is that what you people think loyalty to your nation is, loyalty to corperate entities?

 

[jon_berzerk]

A 12 kw system would power a very large home and shop

depends on efficiency and what is and how much usage is in the shop and home

 

[eagle1462010]

I just did a check on my power bills.

I pay 11 cents per kwh. Average usage over the year, would be over 2000kwh per month. This would take a 15k system with 60 panels minimum.

That system is approximately $24k to $25k to install.

We use fossil fuels here. Which is why it is cheaper. As our coal burners get forced out via the EPA that cost will go up. If we were to do as Europe and Germany the initial costs of going Green would double and triple our costs as Europe has found out.

After reading several articles Germany is subsidizing costs of going green. Phase in time to build or something like that. Secondly the consumer pays a VAT Tax to offset the cost of building them. Companies there are getting waivers to stop their increased costs to stop them from losing business.

I have considered going Solar in the past. I have installed small solar systems at work, they are not difficult to install. But they still have a long way to go to replace fossil fuel electrical production. They simply are confined to the amount of power per square foot of cells and the amount of day light you have that particular day.

And one more thing. Perhaps you can save me time on the life cycle of a PV. Why do companies include DEGRADATION data on cells................on how much they degrade over time until replacement?

 

[Statistikhengst]

I will also note that the German energy grid is much, much more advanced than that of the US, mostly because they completely renovated it (in about 5 waves) over the last 20 years.

In the US, the grid is set up for specific areas: for instance, there is a grid for the East Coast, but it has nothing to do with the Big Sky States, for example. And it has been a long time since the grid was updated.

This has one advantage: in the case of a massive blackout, like in the summer of 2005, only one part of the country is affected.

But the upside to the German grid is that energy from all sources is fed into the same net all at once. In Germany (and most all of the EU), the net is set up for 230 V and 50 Herz is the standard, alternating-current in a three phase distribution to most homes and businesses:

This is the more efficient way to store and transport electrical energy, which also means that the German electrical grid, when compared 1:1 with the US-American grid, is cheaper to operate, maintain and upgrade.

In the USA, the Grid is set up for 115-120 Volt, at 60 Herz, which also means alternating current, but some parts of the country still work with direct current. It's also usually a two phase system. This is why homes in the USA usually have special outlets for equipment that needs 240 volt (like air conditioners, some hair dryers, large appliances like washer and dryers, etc...)

So, if a wind turbine goes overtime in Baden-Württemberg on a day when the wind is hardly blowing in Nordrhrein Westfalen, because everything lands in the same "net", the prices stay lower and more stable than US Americans want to admit and I will remind again, TAX for energy is ALREADY in the kilowatt price. Same deal for solar farms and panels overall, same deal for underwater turbines. Energy net = Energy net = Energy net.

Likewise for Natural Gas and Water - the three pillars of modern energy. Most heating in German homes is with water, btw or electrical floorboard (under the floor) heat. You don't see heating and AC vents in most German homes as you see in US American homes.

 

[Statistikhengst]

I just did a check on my power bills.

I pay 11 cents per kwh. Average usage over the year, would be over 2000kwh per month. This would take a 15k system with 60 panels minimum.

That system is approximately $24k to $25k to install.

We use fossil fuels here. Which is why it is cheaper. As our coal burners get forced out via the EPA that cost will go up. If we were to do as Europe and Germany the initial costs of going Green would double and triple our costs as Europe has found out.

After reading several articles Germany is subsidizing costs of going green. Phase in time to build or something like that. Secondly the consumer pays a VAT Tax to offset the cost of building them. Companies there are getting waivers to stop their increased costs to stop them from losing business.

I have considered going Solar in the past. I have installed small solar systems at work, they are not difficult to install. But they still have a long way to go to replace fossil fuel electrical production. They simply are confined to the amount of power per square foot of cells and the amount of day light you have that particular day.

And one more thing. Perhaps you can save me time on the life cycle of a PV. Why do companies include DEGRADATION data on cells................on how much they degrade over time until replacement?

Absolutely. And since most of the system is up and running, soon that tax will expire.

Plus, again, residents of Germany can buy stock in renewable energy.

You say 11 cents per Kilowatt, but then you have to pay normal sales tax on top of that as well.

My monthly level billing for 80 cubic meters (262 sq. foot) is 70 EUROS per month, or $95.41 per month, and that is for electricity, gas and water. I usually get about 100 Euros a year back. And that includes the VAT tax you talk about.


Degradation depends almost wholly on environment.

Dry environment, lots of sun - less degradation.

Wet environment, lots of storms, lots of win - more degradation.

 

[eagle1462010]

I just did some math on our costs per square foot.

262 square foot, my shed is bigger than that.

I've got 3100 square foot under temperature contorls.
2 hot water heaters, 2 side by side Refrigerators, one deep freeze, and 2 A/c heat systems.

My cost was 5% per square foot than your costs on my last bill. My cost per square foot is 15 cents.

Yours is 2.75 per square foot of usage.

While you have half my bill, I have 12 times the living space you have. Current home is HIGHLY ENERGY EFFICIENT.

i live in a wet area with many storms. low average wind output for wind energy. My degradation would be much higher than our mid western states.