Georgia Seniors Told They Can't Pray Before Meals

[Sky Dancer]

And who the heck are you tell them they can't worship God in Public when the Constitution Guarentees them that right?

They can't pray and have the prayer organized by the same entity recieving the federal dollars. If 'citizen elderly' wants to stand and lead a prayer even with federal funds I think he could do it. It just can't be organized by the group serving the federally funded meal.

Likewise, if citizen elderly is Buddhist, he may organize a Buddhist grace. But truth is, in Japanese and other asian american senior centers they are more tolerant of other faiths and don't say a Buddhist grace out of respect for their diverse attendants, including white christians.

This is just anecdotal evidence, take it or leave it. I worked with the elderly for many years as a social worker in a large metropolitan area and attended many communal elderly meals.

Yep, you make things up as you go along just to justify your own intolerance. I expected better of you.
BTW, there are a lot of people from Japan who are Christian. Many of them are still Shinto. Buddhist are not in the majority as you would think. In fact, of all the students from Japan that I've hosted, and I've hosted a lot. NONE were Buddhist. One was Christian and the rest pretty much didn't have a religion.

Considering my anecdotal evidence is from experience, I think it trumps yours. What do you think?

What intolerance? What do you think I'm, 'making up'? Why would I think you'd expect anything of me one way or another? We're more or less strangers to each other.

For the record, I would like to see all religions free to say prayers over meals. When the group is diverse different faiths ought to take turns or say the grace silently IMO.

I posit that organizers of federally funded meals ought not to lead the group in specific christian or other religious prayers.

I point out that all seniors are not of one mind. Just sit down and have a conversaton at a meal site and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Cause telling people they can't pray outloud or they won't get food is right and fair to all

Telling people they can't eat unless they pray loudly to YOUR god in YOUR way is fair and right to all.

I call shenanigans.

Nobody told any of the seniors they had to say a Christian Grace as a condition of eating the meal.

Where did the grace come from?

 

[L.K.Eder]

Telling people they can't eat unless they pray loudly to YOUR god in YOUR way is fair and right to all.

I call shenanigans.

Nobody told any of the seniors they had to say a Christian Grace as a condition of eating the meal.

Where did the grace come from?

good question, this watering down of praying to saying grace. what is this all about. is saying grace a prayer or not?

 

[Sky Dancer]

No one argued that it was. But you can't stop it simply because you are intolerant.

What am I intolerant of? I accept that you see god as a creator and that you assert that as long as you get to say your chrisitan prayer over a meal all others who object can just stuff it. Doesn't seem a very christian attitude.

I think you may be intolerant of those who prefer a moment of silence over a prayer that is meaningless to a non-christian.

You are intolerant of Christians saying grace before a meal if it happens to be in front of you.

I do not want the organizers of a federally funded event leading organized religious practice. Period. A moment of silent prayer works for me, or letting people of different faiths, in turn, spontaneously offer grace. I take issue with organized religious practice led by people who are staff at the federally funded event.

If christians want to say grace out loud, so be it. People say grace in restaurants and I have no problem with that. The restaurants are not recieving federal funding. If someone wants to make a public display of their prayer at a restaurant they may do so. I say my grace in restaurants silently and no one is the wiser for it.

My objection is that the organizers of the federally funded meal should not lead the grace. The government cannot promote specific religious practices. Separation of church and state.

Why is it christians are so sensitive toward asserting their rights and are so unconcerned about the rights of others?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I call shenanigans.

Nobody told any of the seniors they had to say a Christian Grace as a condition of eating the meal.

Where did the grace come from?

good question, this watering down of praying to saying grace. what is this all about. is saying grace a prayer or not?

Saying grace is a prayer-- of thanksgiving, to god usually. In my tradition, it's a another opportunity to take refuge vows, make wishing prayers and acknowledge interdependence.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Where did the grace come from?

good question, this watering down of praying to saying grace. what is this all about. is saying grace a prayer or not?

Grace is a prayer of thanksgiving to god usually. In my tradition, it's a another opportunity to take refuge vows and acknowledge interdependence.

so "saying grace" is a prayer. i can't see why "saying grace" gets a special place.

you pray out loud and not in your room blablabla,

read the sermon of the mount, if you are christian,

i am not talking to you skydancer.

ask yourself, why you actually say grace. to be heard? to fit in? to get it over with? automatically?

and last, no one on this board actually knows what the situation is in this special case. i just know that "pig" saw an opportunity to campaign.

be proud, christians. as in a deadly sin.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Here is a link to different prayers before eating from a multitude of religious traditions:

Buddhist

*
(serving the food)


In this food I see clearly
the presence of the entire universe
supporting my existence.


*
(looking at the plate of food)


All living beings are struggling
for life.May they all have enough food
to eat today.


*
(just before eating)


The plate is filled with food.
I am aware that each morsel
is the fruit
of much hard work
by those who produced it.


*
(beginning to eat)


With the first taste, I promise
to practice loving kindness.
With the second, I promise
to relieve the suffering of others.
With the third,
I promise to see others' joy as my own.
With the fourth,
I promise to learn the way of nonattachment and equanimity.

*

(after the meal)


The plate is empty.
My hunger is satisfied.
I vow to live for the benefit
of all living beings.


About.com: http://faculty.salisbury.edu/~jdhatley/Graces.htm

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

I wish people would understand what the term 'separation of church and state' really means...

It doesnt mean the govt has to stop you from praying in public...
It MEANS the government CANNOT stop you from praying in public..

 

[Sky Dancer]

I wish people would understand what the term 'separation of church and state' really means...

It doesnt mean the govt has to stop you from praying in public...
It MEANS the government CANNOT stop you from praying in public..

It means both. The government cannot interfere in religious practice and the governement cannot endorse specific religious practice.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

I wish people would understand what the term 'separation of church and state' really means...

It doesnt mean the govt has to stop you from praying in public...
It MEANS the government CANNOT stop you from praying in public..

It means both. The government cannot interfere in religious practice and the governement cannot endorse specific religious practice.

The phrase as spoken from Jefferson doesnt mean both, it just means the govt cannot stop religious activity in any capacity...

However what most people are surprised to learn is that this phrase is not even uttered anywhere in the Constitution.

According to the constitution, the govt cannot set up a state religion.. Seniors praying before a meal is not setting up a state religion.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I wish people would understand what the term 'separation of church and state' really means...

It doesnt mean the govt has to stop you from praying in public...
It MEANS the government CANNOT stop you from praying in public..

It means both. The government cannot interfere in religious practice and the governement cannot endorse specific religious practice.

The phrase as spoken from Jefferson doesnt mean both, it just means the govt cannot stop religious activity in any capacity...

However what most people are surprised to learn is that this phrase is not even uttered anywhere in the Constitution.

According to the constitution, the govt cannot set up a state religion.. Seniors praying before a meal is not setting up a state religion.

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

It means both. The government cannot interfere in religious practice and the governement cannot endorse specific religious practice.

The phrase as spoken from Jefferson doesnt mean both, it just means the govt cannot stop religious activity in any capacity...

However what most people are surprised to learn is that this phrase is not even uttered anywhere in the Constitution.

According to the constitution, the govt cannot set up a state religion.. Seniors praying before a meal is not setting up a state religion.

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

If its FORCED on the people, thats one thing... Telling old folks to pray or you get no food.. But I dont think thats whats happening here.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The phrase as spoken from Jefferson doesnt mean both, it just means the govt cannot stop religious activity in any capacity...

However what most people are surprised to learn is that this phrase is not even uttered anywhere in the Constitution.

According to the constitution, the govt cannot set up a state religion.. Seniors praying before a meal is not setting up a state religion.

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

If its FORCED on the people, thats one thing... Telling old folks to pray or you get no food.. But I dont think thats whats happening here.

Point is none of us knows for sure. We have one article to read that leaves out important details.

 

[jillian]

The phrase as spoken from Jefferson doesnt mean both, it just means the govt cannot stop religious activity in any capacity...

However what most people are surprised to learn is that this phrase is not even uttered anywhere in the Constitution.

According to the constitution, the govt cannot set up a state religion.. Seniors praying before a meal is not setting up a state religion.

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

If its FORCED on the people, thats one thing... Telling old folks to pray or you get no food.. But I dont think thats whats happening here.

the problem as i see it is that if one type of prayer is chosen, that improperly funds a preferred religion. if it were a jewish prayer or a muslim prayer or a buddhist prayer, would you still think it okay?

if it was a generic quiet time for anyone of any belief to pray on their own, i doubt anyone would object.

 

[Anguille]

I guess you didn't read your own article.

Why is it some people can't pray unless they do it out loud with other people? Even when some of those other people are offended by the sometimes obvious attempt to make those who don't participate feel like outcasts?

Isn't prayer supposed to be between God and the individual? Isn't using it as a tool to control people an offense to God?

Completely irrelevent. We live in the United States of America. If people want to have a group prayer outloud, who are you tell them they can't?

Good manners are always relevant.

 

[Mike Mitrosky]

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

If its FORCED on the people, thats one thing... Telling old folks to pray or you get no food.. But I dont think thats whats happening here.

the problem as i see it is that if one type of prayer is chosen, that improperly funds a preferred religion. if it were a jewish prayer or a muslim prayer or a buddhist prayer, would you still think it okay?

if it was a generic quiet time for anyone of any belief to pray on their own, i doubt anyone would object.

Yeah I wouldnt object to it no matter the religion of the prayer.. but I see where some others would - especially seniors..

What I got from the OP though was that it was a decision of the management to stop it on political grounds because they were receiving federal money.. The OP said they had to abide by the 'separation of church and state'... That clause has been misinterpreted for many years and like I say, that clause doesnt exist in the constitution.

 

[Anguille]

No one stoped anyone from praying

Where does the Federal Government have the power to prevent people from praying together?

They can pray together silently--otherwise they have to let every single faith group say their own prayers.

Might be interesting. Native American grace. Muslim grace. Hindu grace. Buddhist grace. Jewish grace. Quaker grace, etc etc etc.
U
Too bad Christians don't want to share.

Hey! Don't forget the atheists!! We get to have our anti grace grace too!

 

[Anguille]

You know as well as I do that the right to free speech is not unconditional.

Then in order to be consistent with your own viewpoints, I presume you will now cease to exercise your first amendment rights because you use the public highways everyday.

I really don't care what you think.If you think I am going to stop praying outloud or personally because someone from the government says so, you are sadly mistaken.

Is that why you have a retort for just about every one of my posts?

 

[Againsheila]

Where does the Federal Government have the power to prevent people from praying together?

They can pray together silently--otherwise they have to let every single faith group say their own prayers.

Might be interesting. Native American grace. Muslim grace. Hindu grace. Buddhist grace. Jewish grace. Quaker grace, etc etc etc.
U
Too bad Christians don't want to share.

Hey! Don't forget the atheists!! We get to have our anti grace grace too!

In most cases, a simple prayer is non-denominational and covers all religions of those who believe in one God.

 

[Againsheila]

Yes, it is if the government sponsored the mea and staff serving the community lead the prayer in an organized way.

If its FORCED on the people, thats one thing... Telling old folks to pray or you get no food.. But I dont think thats whats happening here.

the problem as i see it is that if one type of prayer is chosen, that improperly funds a preferred religion. if it were a jewish prayer or a muslim prayer or a buddhist prayer, would you still think it okay?

if it was a generic quiet time for anyone of any belief to pray on their own, i doubt anyone would object.

I would have no problem with anybody saying a prayer aloud regardless of the religion. The constitution gives us that right and you and nobody else has the right to take it away.

Like I told Sky, I would listen quietly while she said her Buddhist prayer and would even say "Amen" afterward. Why do you think you have the right to prevent me from praying aloud with my friends?

For those talking about manners, you have it backwards. It's good manners to sit quietly while someone prays even if you don't agree with the prayer. It's bad manners to tell them they can't pray. Emily Post apparently isn't well known in this country anymore and people are just making it up as they go along.