Gaza and the Camp David Accords

[SAYIT]

I can't answer your question re camp david, sadat, begin and gaza.

But recently I discovered that after the 1948 war, Ben Gurion desperately wanted to have Gaza within Israel itself.

He even offered to give all the Gazans and the refugees there Israeli citizenship if Egypt would cede Gaza to Israel. Egypt refused. That would be 20% of Israelis today if Egypt had accepted!

There were only 90,000 Gazans before 1948.
Now 1.5 million.

So many Pals were expelled by force not just in war but for 2 years; from Ashkelon and the south coast area where no jews were ever at any time in all history present before in any numbers.

This ethnic cleansing went on for 2 years until 1950. The south coast was never ever Jewish and had been given to the Arabs by the UN partition plan.

That's why its so hard for Hamas and Gazans to recognise the 1967 borders; they are almost all the rightful owners of the south coast area of Israel stolen viciously and with no legitimacy whatsoever.

But things are changing fast in Gaza. The visit of the Qatari Emir is very significant. Hamas is moving from the Iran terror network to the Sunni mainstream where it came from in the first place.

In reality, UN resolution 181 did not give anything to anybody. The UN Security Council decided not to implement the plan because to do so without the approval of the Palestinians would violate international law and the UN Charter.

The '67 borders are the 1949 armistice lines. They were specifically not to be political or territorial borders. Not only does Hamas reject those as borders, Israel does as well.

It is interesting to note that even though the UN in its armistice agreements stated that those lines would not be borders shortly thereafter the UN used those non borders to define Israel's territory when it accepted Israel's membership in the UN.

you are right, sir

i recently read about how desperate israel was to be accepted in the UN and made many false promises it had no intention of keeping

and how deeply Truman's admin was divided over supporting israel then and how even he regretted it later because he was lied to so much by the Zios

just to you, isn't it a bit pointless just trading sterile one liners with the abusive and foul mouthed zio parrots??

Source?

 

[SAYIT]

"The Muslim apologists and anti-Semites are just as abusive and foul-mouthed."

some are, I grant you not all, on either side

but just say one word against israel's govt and you are an anti semite out to destroy all jews, even if like me you are jewish!

Didn't you say you were raised in the Church?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well before '67 it was part of Egypt. Now it is run by Hamas, but strangely tied to Israel, before 48 it was the British, before that the Ottomans. So its hard to say what Gaza is.

What I can say is that I don't know of any successful small state that is not geographically connected the way the proposed Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza is. Why not build bonds between Gaza and Egypt. It makes much more sense.

A country does not cease to exist when it is occupied.

Palestine was recognized as an independent state by post WWI treaties. Its borders as a successor state to that division of the Ottoman Empire were defined in 1922. That land was ceded to the government of Palestine.

Britain administered (some would say occupied) Palestine during the Palestine Mandate period. Britain never had possession of Palestine.

After the 1948 war the UN armistice agreements drew cease fire lines on top of Palestine. These lines, now frequently called 1967 borders, were specifically not to be considered political or national borders. These lines did not change Palestine's defined borders. Palestine was divided into three areas of occupation: Israeli, Egyptian, and Jordanian.

In 1967 Israel took over the occupation of the Wast Bank from Jordan and the occupation of Gaza from Egypt.

Palestine's borders, as defined in 1922, remain unchanged today.

You forgot to post a link, Princess. How convenient.

What do you question? Just ask.

 

[Billo_Really]

Well before '67 it was part of Egypt. Now it is run by Hamas, but strangely tied to Israel, before 48 it was the British, before that the Ottomans. So its hard to say what Gaza is.

It's very easy to say what Gaza is..............it's NOT ISRAEL!

What I can say is that I don't know of any successful small state that is not geographically connected the way the proposed Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza is. Why not build bonds between Gaza and Egypt. It makes much more sense.

That would be saying it is okay for Israel to break the law, which it is not.

 

[SAYIT]

A country does not cease to exist when it is occupied.

Palestine was recognized as an independent state by post WWI treaties. Its borders as a successor state to that division of the Ottoman Empire were defined in 1922. That land was ceded to the government of Palestine.

Britain administered (some would say occupied) Palestine during the Palestine Mandate period. Britain never had possession of Palestine.

After the 1948 war the UN armistice agreements drew cease fire lines on top of Palestine. These lines, now frequently called 1967 borders, were specifically not to be considered political or national borders. These lines did not change Palestine's defined borders. Palestine was divided into three areas of occupation: Israeli, Egyptian, and Jordanian.

In 1967 Israel took over the occupation of the Wast Bank from Jordan and the occupation of Gaza from Egypt.

Palestine's borders, as defined in 1922, remain unchanged today.

You forgot to post a link, Princess. How convenient.

What do you question? Just ask.

OK. What is the source of your "facts?"

 

[P F Tinmore]

You forgot to post a link, Princess. How convenient.

What do you question? Just ask.

OK. What is the source of your "facts?"

Several sources culminating into a general knowledge.

Which point do you question?

 

[kvetch]

Does anyone have a source for information on the negotiation between Begin and Sadat over the status of Gaza? I have heard that the Egyptians insisted that the Israeli's take Gaza ("Let them choke on 1.2M Arabs" was a quote I remember). Is this true? Does anyone know of any legitimate source material on this subject?

Thank you,

S

I can't answer your question re camp david, sadat, begin and gaza.

But recently I discovered that after the 1948 war, Ben Gurion desperately wanted to have Gaza within Israel itself.

He even offered to give all the Gazans and the refugees there Israeli citizenship if Egypt would cede Gaza to Israel. Egypt refused. That would be 20% of Israelis today if Egypt had accepted!

There were only 90,000 Gazans before 1948.
Now 1.5 million.

So many Pals were expelled by force not just in war but for 2 years; from Ashkelon and the south coast area where no jews were ever at any time in all history present before in any numbers.

This ethnic cleansing went on for 2 years until 1950. The south coast was never ever Jewish and had been given to the Arabs by the UN partition plan.

That's why its so hard for Hamas and Gazans to recognise the 1967 borders; they are almost all the rightful owners of the south coast area of Israel stolen viciously and with no legitimacy whatsoever.

But things are changing fast in Gaza. The visit of the Qatari Emir is very significant. Hamas is moving from the Iran terror network to the Sunni mainstream where it came from in the first place.

Link?

Sayit I can't yet post links..too new here

All from googling wikipedia on pal refugees in 1948, gaza, ashkelon, clicking on different links between wikipedia entries

no biased sites, either way...all just wikipedia which I trust, usually

so not one link...about 10 I think and several hours reading.

 

[irosie91]

Long ago----when I was young-----the discussion about Gaza that I heard was that Egypt specifically shoved lots of arabs into that small place and for a very important military reason----if you look at the map-----you can see that it is like an IN-ROAD into Israel------strategically it was retained as such in order to be used in the islamic agenda of annhilation of Israel.

The Gazans were kept absolutely impoverished while Egypt had control-----no running water and almost no electricity and absent medical care The idea was to create a generation of suicide prone jihadists

 

[kvetch]

kvetch-----you are not jewish-------it is POSSIBLE that you have some female jewish ancestor------but you know nothing about judaism or jewish history

IROSIE Those who REALLY know stuff know how much they still have to learn. You who for sure know a whole lot lack the humility of a real student....a know it all...or more than thou...

I look forward to learning more from you about Jews and Zoros and anything else you actually share, but you rarely do..

I don't pretend to know THAT much of Judaism or Jewish History because I was not brought up Jewish unlike my mum..

But my Mum's extended family were just about the whole Anglo Jewish aristocracy. except the Rothschilds...not from the stetls of Eastern Europe like most UK and USA Jews. Some from Spain...Mattos, Montefiore etc. Others from Krakow, Franklin, waley, Cohen etc.

Just one example; the 2 co authors of that tragic oxymoron, the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Herbert Samuel the Zionist and Edwin Montague the anti Zionist.

Although Samuel, also Governor General of Palestine from 1920 to 26 was a close relation, (Great Uncle) my Mum and siblings all took the anti Zionist line, and still do. All but her eldest sister married out. It split the family and still does.

I and my brother did go to a Liberal schul for a while just to learn more. I especially loved the cantors and the music which I found nourishing to the soul, but I can't follow any organised religion as a devotee.

By all means challenge my ignorance where justified but not my essence or identity.

 

[theliq]

I can't answer your question re camp david, sadat, begin and gaza.

But recently I discovered that after the 1948 war, Ben Gurion desperately wanted to have Gaza within Israel itself.

He even offered to give all the Gazans and the refugees there Israeli citizenship if Egypt would cede Gaza to Israel. Egypt refused. That would be 20% of Israelis today if Egypt had accepted!

There were only 90,000 Gazans before 1948.
Now 1.5 million.

So many Pals were expelled by force not just in war but for 2 years; from Ashkelon and the south coast area where no jews were ever at any time in all history present before in any numbers.

This ethnic cleansing went on for 2 years until 1950. The south coast was never ever Jewish and had been given to the Arabs by the UN partition plan.

That's why its so hard for Hamas and Gazans to recognise the 1967 borders; they are almost all the rightful owners of the south coast area of Israel stolen viciously and with no legitimacy whatsoever.

But things are changing fast in Gaza. The visit of the Qatari Emir is very significant. Hamas is moving from the Iran terror network to the Sunni mainstream where it came from in the first place.

In reality, UN resolution 181 did not give anything to anybody. The UN Security Council decided not to implement the plan because to do so without the approval of the Palestinians would violate international law and the UN Charter.

The '67 borders are the 1949 armistice lines. They were specifically not to be political or territorial borders. Not only does Hamas reject those as borders, Israel does as well.

It is interesting to note that even though the UN in its armistice agreements stated that those lines would not be borders shortly thereafter the UN used those non borders to define Israel's territory when it accepted Israel's membership in the UN.

you are right, sir

i recently read about how desperate israel was to be accepted in the UN and made many false promises it had no intention of keeping

and how deeply Truman's admin was divided over supporting israel then and how even he regretted it later because he was lied to so much by the Zios

just to you, isn't it a bit pointless just trading sterile one liners with the abusive and foul mouthed zio parrots??

I think you mean't Pisrael,once they got in they Pissed on Everyone

 

[theliq]

kvetch-----you are not jewish-------it is POSSIBLE that you have some female jewish ancestor------but you know nothing about judaism or jewish history

IROSIE Those who REALLY know stuff know how much they still have to learn. You who for sure know a whole lot lack the humility of a real student....a know it all...or more than thou...

I look forward to learning more from you about Jews and Zoros and anything else you actually share, but you rarely do..

I don't pretend to know THAT much of Judaism or Jewish History because I was not brought up Jewish unlike my mum..

But my Mum's extended family were just about the whole Anglo Jewish aristocracy. except the Rothschilds...not from the stetls of Eastern Europe like most UK and USA Jews. Some from Spain...Mattos, Montefiore etc. Others from Krakow, Franklin, waley, Cohen etc.

Just one example; the 2 co authors of that tragic oxymoron, the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Herbert Samuel the Zionist and Edwin Montague the anti Zionist.

Although Samuel, also Governor General of Palestine from 1920 to 26 was a close relation, (Great Uncle) my Mum and siblings all took the anti Zionist line, and still do. All but her eldest sister married out. It split the family and still does.

I and my brother did go to a Liberal schul for a while just to learn more. I especially loved the cantors and the music which I found nourishing to the soul, but I can't follow any organised religion as a devotee.

By all means challenge my ignorance where justified but not my essence or identity.

Oooooo how true the OXYMORON,Quite Brilliant Kvetch

 

[Lipush]

kvetch-----you are not jewish-------it is POSSIBLE that you have some female jewish ancestor------but you know nothing about judaism or jewish history

IROSIE Those who REALLY know stuff know how much they still have to learn. You who for sure know a whole lot lack the humility of a real student....a know it all...or more than thou...

I look forward to learning more from you about Jews and Zoros and anything else you actually share, but you rarely do..

I don't pretend to know THAT much of Judaism or Jewish History because I was not brought up Jewish unlike my mum..

But my Mum's extended family were just about the whole Anglo Jewish aristocracy. except the Rothschilds...not from the stetls of Eastern Europe like most UK and USA Jews. Some from Spain...Mattos, Montefiore etc. Others from Krakow, Franklin, waley, Cohen etc.

Just one example; the 2 co authors of that tragic oxymoron, the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Herbert Samuel the Zionist and Edwin Montague the anti Zionist.

Although Samuel, also Governor General of Palestine from 1920 to 26 was a close relation, (Great Uncle) my Mum and siblings all took the anti Zionist line, and still do. All but her eldest sister married out. It split the family and still does.

I and my brother did go to a Liberal schul for a while just to learn more. I especially loved the cantors and the music which I found nourishing to the soul, but I can't follow any organised religion as a devotee.

By all means challenge my ignorance where justified but not my essence or identity.

That is not something to be proud of.

 

[kvetch]

"The Muslim apologists and anti-Semites are just as abusive and foul-mouthed."

some are, I grant you not all, on either side

but just say one word against israel's govt and you are an anti semite out to destroy all jews, even if like me you are jewish!

Didn't you say you were raised in the Church?

as a quaker, which is a very broad minded small christian protestant sect. No priests.

they founded pennsylvania...billy penn

they are pacifist...against all war; refused to fight in world wars etc but did ambulance duty etc.

they always were peaceful with the native americans, for example

I would have fought in world war 2........a just war..........one of very very few

The Arabs in general have only destroyed themselves by war and terrorism and so have the Zionists who could and should have made peace immediately after 1948.

 

[kvetch]

kvetch-----you are not jewish-------it is POSSIBLE that you have some female jewish ancestor------but you know nothing about judaism or jewish history

IROSIE Those who REALLY know stuff know how much they still have to learn. You who for sure know a whole lot lack the humility of a real student....a know it all...or more than thou...

I look forward to learning more from you about Jews and Zoros and anything else you actually share, but you rarely do..

I don't pretend to know THAT much of Judaism or Jewish History because I was not brought up Jewish unlike my mum..

But my Mum's extended family were just about the whole Anglo Jewish aristocracy. except the Rothschilds...not from the stetls of Eastern Europe like most UK and USA Jews. Some from Spain...Mattos, Montefiore etc. Others from Krakow, Franklin, waley, Cohen etc.

Just one example; the 2 co authors of that tragic oxymoron, the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Herbert Samuel the Zionist and Edwin Montague the anti Zionist.

Although Samuel, also Governor General of Palestine from 1920 to 26 was a close relation, (Great Uncle) my Mum and siblings all took the anti Zionist line, and still do. All but her eldest sister married out. It split the family and still does.

I and my brother did go to a Liberal schul for a while just to learn more. I especially loved the cantors and the music which I found nourishing to the soul, but I can't follow any organised religion as a devotee.

By all means challenge my ignorance where justified but not my essence or identity.

Oooooo how true the OXYMORON,Quite Brilliant Kvetch

in the christian tradition there are 7 deadly sins

the worst of them is PRIDE

so I try to be honest and authentic..............never proud

pride comes before a fall...............I think that's a jewish proverb

 

[irosie91]

there is no reason to believe anything "kvetch" posts------it is all from internet sites---------one of the most significant issue is his SN-----which is a very clumsy and idiotic and WORTHLESS attempt to bolster his false claim that he is "jewish"

in my youth I had a quaker boyfriend (in the USA) Kvetch AIN't NO quaker It is remotely possible that he attended a school sponsored by THE SOCIETY OF FRIENDS-----

 

[kvetch]

there is no reason to believe anything "kvetch" posts------it is all from internet sites---------one of the most significant issue is his SN-----which is a very clumsy and idiotic and WORTHLESS attempt to bolster his false claim that he is "jewish"

in my youth I had a quaker boyfriend (in the USA) Kvetch AIN't NO quaker It is remotely possible that he attended a school sponsored by THE SOCIETY OF FRIENDS-----

IRosie you seem to base everything on your USA friends which is OK but then yiou generalise from those folx you know to whole categories and think you know the lot and there you go wrong.

e.g. Nixon was a quaker! they are NOT all the same.

I did go to quaker school and both my parents were practising full members. my sister still is.

I got much of my spiritual education in india, later on, but I respect and admire the UK Quakers to this day, and the education they gave me

Why do you need to tell people who or what they are when the facts are otherwise; it's neither intelligent nor respectful

 

[irosie91]

I am fully aware of Nixon's quaker background ----you comment upon it is unrelated to the issue Quakerism was INVENTED in the USA------in fact very near to the town in which I grew up--------your silly claims are silly------in any case lots of "non-quakers" attend schools sponsored by the "SOCIETY OF FRIENDS" -----an intereting group of people who like to send their kids to "christian schools" ---because they are "better" are families from the indian subcontinent ----read that Indians and pakistanis

 

[kvetch]

I am fully aware of Nixon's quaker background ----you comment upon it is unrelated to the issue Quakerism was INVENTED in the USA------in fact very near to the town in which I grew up--------your silly claims are silly------in any case lots of "non-quakers" attend schools sponsored by the "SOCIETY OF FRIENDS" -----an intereting group of people who like to send their kids to "christian schools" ---because they are "better" are families from the indian subcontinent ----read that Indians and pakistanis

now you really are wrong and ignorant...YOU REALLY DONT KNOW THIS TIME

quakerism was founded by George Fox in England in the 17th century

the USA is not the whole world you know!!

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PERSIA jews AND ZOROS

i'm beginning to doubt you.................

 

[irosie91]

oh really? in england----must have been the "shakers" that hit my mind-----that is interesting since the quaker boyfriend of my youth------his FATHER was from england When did I ever say I know a LOT about zoroastrians? I have met only two ------they were from Bombay----and freinds to a jewish girl I know from there. ----you may be referring to the fact that I mentioned that zoroasters are mentioned in the talmud-----Jews did live in Persia during the pre islamic era there. Everything went well until one of their kings decided not to like the jewish insistence "god is one"------since zoroastrianism is not actually strictly monotheistic ----so there was some minor trouble

 

[kvetch]

oh really? in england----must have been the "shakers" that hit my mind-----that is interesting since the quaker boyfriend of my youth------his FATHER was from england When did I ever say I know a LOT about zoroastrians? I have met only two ------they were from Bombay----and freinds to a jewish girl I know from there. ----you may be referring to the fact that I mentioned that zoroasters are mentioned in the talmud-----Jews did live in Persia during the pre islamic era there. Everything went well until one of their kings decided not to like the jewish insistence "god is one"------since zoroastrianism is not actually strictly monotheistic ----so there was some minor trouble

well thanx for that tit bit, at least

the quakers were heavily persecuted in merrie old england by the then hugely intolerant state church of england before the toleration acts so they fled to the land of the free in numbers, including billy penn who was english not american

well before the USA was even dreamed of

but except for nixon they are good guys and gals even tho I no longer belong