Game Over, Hillary

[Shogun]

So you think that poll you were touting and quoted 100 times until it came back to bite you in the ass is somehow imaginary now?

There is no consensus on what restrictions should be in place for abortion. You cited the poll, don't back out of it now.

See above. Apparently, you couldn't comprehend what those stats are saying even if they were a flashing neon sign blinking "MORE RESTRICTIONS" over and over again.

I stand by my evidence. you ignorant fuckers feel free to wallow in a laughable attempt to wrap the data around your goofy opinons though. I'm probably not laughing at the memory of the last two judges being vetted for ONE SINGLE ISSUE or anything.

 

[Ravi]

Please do.. and while you are at it, why don't you go ahead and add the stats that you left out too.


I'll show you how to figure out what "MORE RESTRICTIONS" and "ONLY IN THE CASE OF MOTHER DEATH" means.

notice, not a single demographic said "LESS RESTRICTIONS" outside of your measly 38%. Wanna actually do the math or is it still necessary to convelude the data?

Ah, it was stupid.

 

[Shogun]

I take it you are too much of a giant PUSSY to whip out the numbers that you purposfully didn't want to include, eh?



figures. You have the substance of a rice cake, ravi.

 

[Larkinn]

then the issue goes on for another 20 years. and, I disagree. I think Mccain would not break from the will of the people who put him in office.

Will of the people?


"Would you like to see the Supreme Court overturn its 1973 Roe versus Wade decision concerning abortion, or not?"


5/10-13/07


Yes, Overturn - 35 %

No, Not Overturn- 53%

Unsure- 12%



Ouch...seems like the "will of the people" is against you yet again Shogun. So much for your appeal to popular opinion.

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

 

[Larkinn]

See above. Apparently, you couldn't comprehend what those stats are saying even if they were a flashing neon sign blinking "MORE RESTRICTIONS" over and over again.

The stats are saying there is no conesnsus. But do keep on lying.

I stand by my evidence. you ignorant fuckers feel free to wallow in a laughable attempt to wrap the data around your goofy opinons though. I'm probably not laughing at the memory of the last two judges being vetted for ONE SINGLE ISSUE or anything.

I'm standing by your evidence too, the evidence that clearly shows there is no consensus.

 

[doeton]

will facts stop him?

 

[Ravi]

I take it you are too much of a giant PUSSY to whip out the numbers that you purposfully didn't want to include, eh?



figures. You have the substance of a rice cake, ravi.

I got them from what you posted on this thread and the other. From 2003 until 2007 the number of people that support a total ban on abortion dropped from 38% to 5%.

This is the reason these types of issues should never be based on public opinion. Public opinion changes but the intent of the constitution does not.

 

[Shogun]

Will of the people?
"Would you like to see the Supreme Court overturn its 1973 Roe versus Wade decision concerning abortion, or not?"
5/10-13/07
Yes, Overturn - 35 %
No, Not Overturn- 53%
Unsure- 12%
Ouch...seems like the "will of the people" is against you yet again Shogun. So much for your appeal to popular opinion.
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

YEA! thanks for the stats! Now, let's take a gander at what ELSE is found at your own fucking srouce!




"Do you favor laws that would make it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion, favor laws that would make it easier to get an abortion or should no change be made to existing abortion laws?"

More
Difficult Easier No Change Unsure
% % % %


10/16-23/07
42 16 38 4





"Which comes closest to your view on abortion: abortion should always be legal, or should be legal most of the time, or should be made illegal except in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life, or abortion should be made illegal without any exceptions?"

Always
Legal

Legal
Most of
the Time

Illegal
With a Few
Exceptions

Illegal
Without
Exceptions

Unsure

31 13 40 10 6






All Cases

Greater
Restrictions

Rape, Incest,
Woman's
Life

Only
Woman's
Life

Never (vol.)

Unsure


10/12-16/07


26


16


34


16


4


4





"Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"


Always
Legal

Sometimes
Legal

Always
Illegal

Unsure


10/12-14/07


23


54


22


1







"Regardless of whether you think abortion should be allowed or not, do you personally believe having an abortion is wrong?"


.
Yes No Unsure


10/12-14/07


60


36


4









.

"Which of these comes closest to your view? Abortion should be generally available to those who want it. OR, Abortion should be available, but under stricter limits than it is now. OR, Abortion should not be permitted."


Generally
Available

Stricter
Limits

Not
Permitted

Unsure


9/4-9/07

34


39


25


2







"The Supreme Court also recently upheld a federal restriction on the procedure known as partial birth abortion, banning the procedure except when a woman's life is at risk. Do you approve or disapprove of this decision?"


.
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
7/18-21/07 55 43 2




WOW, did you really think I wouldn't dive right into your source?

 

[Shogun]

The stats are saying there is no conesnsus. But do keep on lying.
I'm standing by your evidence too, the evidence that clearly shows there is no consensus.

HA!

yes, think what you want, dude... I just handed you your first venture in posting evidence BACK to you so have fun believing that the one single question that indicates the backswing of this pendelum WASNT obvious in Robert's and Alito's vetting.





again.. too easy.

 

[Shogun]

I got them from what you posted on this thread and the other. From 2003 until 2007 the number of people that support a total ban on abortion dropped from 38% to 5%.

This is the reason these types of issues should never be based on public opinion. Public opinion changes but the intent of the constitution does not.

But you don't consider the FACT of those who answered for MORE RESTRICTIONS. I realize that having to admit as much will make your position a little problematic but, hey.. too fucking bad.


and, the Constituion IS a document of public opinoin. We don't observe it to our chagrin. This is why there is an AMENDMENT process. This may be a little tough for you to handle so you might wanna lie down and apply a moist cloth to your forehead.

 

[Glori.B]

This is the reason these types of issues should never be based on public opinion. Public opinion changes but the intent of the constitution does not.

right on, ravi.


as a side bar, let me just say to shogun, or to anyone who is "pro-life", this issue is NOT about who thinks it's okey dokey to kill the unborn at random. it is about a woman's right to choose. the government can not be allowed to dictate that a woman must carry a baby to term. for most people, morality alone dictates that choice. for others, complex personal circumstances lead to the alternate choice. rather than assume awful things about those who stand up for a woman's right to choose, perhaps we could recognize that each of us could do more to fight for better circumstances for all women to be able to make better choices in the first place. for the record, i find the pro-life stance honorable, but it's frustrating to see the issue become so convoluted by the self righteous emotions involved.

 

[Larkinn]

YEA! thanks for the stats! Now, let's take a gander at what ELSE is found at your own fucking srouce!




"Do you favor laws that would make it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion, favor laws that would make it easier to get an abortion or should no change be made to existing abortion laws?"

More
Difficult Easier No Change Unsure
% % % %


10/16-23/07
42 16 38 4





"Which comes closest to your view on abortion: abortion should always be legal, or should be legal most of the time, or should be made illegal except in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life, or abortion should be made illegal without any exceptions?"

Always
Legal

Legal
Most of
the Time

Illegal
With a Few
Exceptions

Illegal
Without
Exceptions

Unsure

31 13 40 10 6






All Cases

Greater
Restrictions

Rape, Incest,
Woman's
Life

Only
Woman's
Life

Never (vol.)

Unsure


10/12-16/07


26


16


34


16


4


4





"Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"


Always
Legal

Sometimes
Legal

Always
Illegal

Unsure


10/12-14/07


23


54


22


1







"Regardless of whether you think abortion should be allowed or not, do you personally believe having an abortion is wrong?"


.
Yes No Unsure


10/12-14/07


60


36


4









.

"Which of these comes closest to your view? Abortion should be generally available to those who want it. OR, Abortion should be available, but under stricter limits than it is now. OR, Abortion should not be permitted."


Generally
Available

Stricter
Limits

Not
Permitted

Unsure


9/4-9/07

34


39


25


2







"The Supreme Court also recently upheld a federal restriction on the procedure known as partial birth abortion, banning the procedure except when a woman's life is at risk. Do you approve or disapprove of this decision?"


.
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
7/18-21/07 55 43 2

Of all those numbers, only ONE was above 50%. And most are split roughly evenly with less than a 5% gap between them. Thats pretty much the definition of no consensus.

WOW, did you really think I wouldn't dive right into your source?

I was hoping you would actually. Was quite easy to set you up for the fall there. Like stealing candy from a baby that was.

Edit: For some reason on the original quote not all the numbers showed up. The important policy questions are, for the most part, under 50%. Such as when abortions should be restricted and such.

 

[Larkinn]

yes, think what you want, dude... I just handed you your first venture in posting evidence BACK to you so have fun believing that the one single question that indicates the backswing of this pendelum WASNT obvious in Robert's and Alito's vetting.

Of course it was. Thats because Republicans in Congress are pro-life. Thats doing really well by them

and, the Constituion IS a document of public opinoin. We don't observe it to our chagrin. This is why there is an AMENDMENT process. This may be a little tough for you to handle so you might wanna lie down and apply a moist cloth to your forehead.

Umm, no. Its massively hard to change for the very reason that its NOT a document of public opinion.

 

[jillian]

Shogie baby....

The Constitution a document of public opinion?

That might be one of the most bizarre statements I've ever seen.... the whole point of the Constitution is that IT'S NOT A DOCUMENT OF PUBLIC OPINION. And its supposed to protect me from zealous idiots like youi.

If it were, how long do you think you'd be able to hang on to your guns?

And this from the person who think the world ended when they made him put out his cigarettes in restaurants.

 

[Ravi]

Of all those numbers, only ONE was above 50%. And most are split roughly evenly with less than a 5% gap between them. Thats pretty much the definition of no consensus.



I was hoping you would actually. Was quite easy to set you up for the fall there. Like stealing candy from a baby that was.

Edit: For some reason on the original quote not all the numbers showed up. The important policy questions are, for the most part, under 50%. Such as when abortions should be restricted and such.

Not only is their no consensus, there isn't even a definition of terms. More difficult could mean something like what was voted on in my state recently: requiring a woman to have an ultrasound before having an abortion. That would certainly qualify as "more difficult."

btw, in a Republican controlled state, the measure failed.

 

[Ravi]

But you don't consider the FACT of those who answered for MORE RESTRICTIONS. I realize that having to admit as much will make your position a little problematic but, hey.. too fucking bad.


and, the Constituion IS a document of public opinoin. We don't observe it to our chagrin. This is why there is an AMENDMENT process. This may be a little tough for you to handle so you might wanna lie down and apply a moist cloth to your forehead.

I'm surprised you didn't post this one:

A law requiring that the husband of a married woman be notified if she decides to have an abortion

--------------------Favor Oppose Unsure

11/11-13/05--------64----34----2
1/10-12/03---------72----26----2
7/25-28/96---------70----26----4
1/16-19/92---------73----25----2

The bitches are winning, run for the hills Shog!!!

Actually, this one surprised me.

 

[Dogger]

First, let's note that the statistics cited earlier in the thread show that results can differ depending on how the question is framed. I've selected two differing poll references on the same topic: partial birth abortion. Two polls show a 15 point variance on this single issue:

percentage of adults who would favor the following laws or proposals:
. . .
A law that would make it illegal to perform a specific abortion procedure conducted in the last six months of pregnancy known as a "partial birth abortion," except in cases necessary to save the life of the mother 70%

YEA! thanks for the stats! Now, let's take a gander at what ELSE is found at your [Larkinn's] own fucking srouce!
. . .
"The Supreme Court also recently upheld a federal restriction on the procedure known as partial birth abortion, banning the procedure except when a woman's life is at risk. Do you approve or disapprove of this decision?"

Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
7/18-21/07 55 43 2

When I tried to reframe the questions, Shogun responded, "Indeed, you just don't get to frame the results around your opinion." [Post #72]

But that wasn't accurate. I have read the partial birth statute and the court cases that resolved the Constitutional dispute. The big issue was whether the law could omit any exception to protect the HEALTH of the mother. The new law permits the procedure to save her life, but not her health. I reframed the questions to focus on this important distinction, by listing cases where partial birth abortion is banned, but horrible consequences would ensue.

The partial birth abortion law will not allow the procedure in the following cases:

• the fetus will not survive, but the mother will
• carrying the doomed fetus to term will cause irreparable psychological damage
• carrying the doomed fetus to term will cause permanent physical injury
• the damaged or injured mother will be rendered incapable of taking care of other children already in this world
• all of these circumstance will occur, but the doctor cannot certify the mother will die

Another problem comes from the uncertainity of modern medicine. If the doctor thinks the mother might die, but he can't be positive that an abortion is necessary to save her life, he takes a serious legal risk. Even if prosecutions are unsuccessful, the threat will deter enough doctors that some women will die.

This isn't idle speculation. This is real. For the most part, the people who support this law in polls don't understand what the Republican Congress really did. The monsters who wrote the law and the right-wing court that upheld it understood this, but just didn't care.

 

[Ravi]

I agree, Dogger. Great post on the subject. I doubt it will have any effect on Shogun. I'm almost convinced he wouldn't care if the mother was guaranteed to die because in his mind he is saving babies from being strangled at birth.

 

[glockmail]

Proving once again that maineman aka manfrommaine is a liar.

 

[BrianH]

why does it seem that most threads on this forum fade into choleric insults? cant people have a discussion without getting upset when people disagree?

LOL...good luck getting by with that idea.

You'll learn young one....