From The Horse's Mouth...

[Challenger]

"There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent. However, during our military service we learned that intelligence is a inseparable part of military rule in the Territories.

The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself.

In many cases, intelligence prevents doing proper justice to the accused under military courts through preventing him from seeing the evidence against him. Intelligence enables continuing rule over millions of people, authority that is deep and penetrates into every facet of daily life. These things prevent normal life and spark further violence and further distance any end of the conflict." -- excerpt from Unit 8200 letter,

Unit 8200, whose ethical standards have been described as “without rival in the intelligence community in Israel or the world”

Wiretaps against Palestinians are wrong Israeli ex-spies tell Netanyahu - Yahoo News UK

 

[rhodescholar]

"There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent. However, during our military service we learned that intelligence is a inseparable part of military rule in the Territories.

The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself.

In many cases, intelligence prevents doing proper justice to the accused under military courts through preventing him from seeing the evidence against him. Intelligence enables continuing rule over millions of people, authority that is deep and penetrates into every facet of daily life. These things prevent normal life and spark further violence and further distance any end of the conflict." -- excerpt from Unit 8200 letter,

Unit 8200, whose ethical standards have been described as “without rival in the intelligence community in Israel or the world”

Wiretaps against Palestinians are wrong Israeli ex-spies tell Netanyahu - Yahoo News UK

Funny how dipshits like this are so, so terribly concerned about the civil rights of arabs and their treatment by israel, but never mention a fucking word how hamas or arab governments operate.

No comments about the lack of free speech, assembly, or press, lack of women's and gay rights in gaza, or about the ethnic cleansing of non-muslims out of gaza - and the entire middle east?

Stop fucking wasting our time with bullshit like wire-tapping, and stop enabling the worst scum of humanity known as arab leadership, such as hamas. If turds like you would put pressure where it should be - on the arabs - to better themselves and stop dumbing down standards and excusing away their shit behavior, the mideast would be a much better place. Instead, they have lots of useful idiots like you apologizing away their dreadful behavior, helping them to blame everyone else, and the rational amongst us sees right through your transparent nonsense.

 

[montelatici]

Funny how punks like you change the subject. There are other sections of this forum dedicated to the rest of the Arab world. This is an Israel/Palestinian section.

But to go off the subject for an instant as you did. The Arab dictators, with the exception of Assad and the late Sadaam Hussein and Ghedaffi, are supported and in many cases kept in power by the U.S. Secular Arab states like Iraq was and Syria is had problems, but were socially advanced. Iraq and Syria had/have women in leadership positions, the Syrian army has Christians in its officer corps and Iraq had Christians ministers. You won't find that in the U.S. supported Gulf states or Saudi Arabia which are socially in the stone age.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Challenger
There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent.

Well, there is another view, which I happen to share, that the mere fact of being a citizen of Israel, of living in the state of Israel is full of moral dilemmas.

6, 8 years ago I read about an Israeli citizen, a beautiful jewish woman, with long, dark hair, who gave up her citizenship and immigrated to Australia on purely moral grounds. She said she couldn't stand being a citizen and paying taxes that one way or the other would end up financing the repression of the palestinian people.

And I don't think she's the only one.

If I were an Israeli citizen serving the Army would be totally out of question. And I suspect I would end up joining her in exile...

I'd probably go to the US, Australia or New Zealand where my tax money would get a less depraved destination, where Indians, Aborigines and Maoris are at least being currently compensated for their losses at the hands of the white supremacist states instead of being locked in reservations... getting casinos, financial subsidies, etc... instead of walls, electrified fences, minefields and machine gun nests.

 

[tinydancer]

obama will rue the day.

 

[rhodescholar]

Funny how punks like you change the subject. There are other sections of this forum dedicated to the rest of the Arab world. This is an Israel/Palestinian section.

Change what subject, chimp? Jews were ethnically cleansed out of every arab muslim country and region, including gaza - yet we never heard you complain once about them. As for the arabs who call themselves "palestinians," they are simply a part of the arab muslim world, nothing unique to them.

You're as FOS as they are.

The Arab dictators, with the exception of Assad and the late Sadaam Hussein and Ghedaffi, are supported and in many cases kept in power by the U.S.

Really? How was that, chimp? Are there US soldiers and US-placed leaders in these countries sustaining the current regimes the way the USSR had troops on the ground and implanted leaders in TWENTY-ONE countries until 1989? That the US is an ALLY does not mean that the US is "propping up" or keeping anyone in power - grow up, dimwit and turn off World Socialist Daily propaganda garbage.

Secular Arab states like Iraq was and Syria is had problems, but were socially advanced.

Really? Like 85% of the syrian population that was sunni was almost completely marginalized, and the shia majority in iraq subjugated and oppressed, even massacred at times - none of which had a thing to do with the US. The vast majority of both groups were heavily impoverished.

Iraq and Syria had/have women in leadership positions, the Syrian army has Christians in its officer corps and Iraq had Christians ministers.

So fucking what? Iran has a token jew in its parliament, big fucking deal. They were there for show, nothing more.

You won't find that in the U.S. supported Gulf states or Saudi Arabia which are socially in the stone age.

What's funny is that assholes like this attack the US for trying to overthrow some regimes, but if it doesn't, it is "supporting" others that are bad. Make up your mind, dimwit. The way that these regimes govern internally is none of the US' business, and how a country allied with the US operates its government, civil rights, etc., is not the US' business either. Besides, hypocritical idiot, if the US were to start trying to interfere with other countries' conduct, frauds like you would be the first to complain about it. You have ZERO credibility.

 

[montelatici]

Funny how punks like you change the subject. There are other sections of this forum dedicated to the rest of the Arab world. This is an Israel/Palestinian section.

Change what subject, chimp? Jews were ethnically cleansed out of every arab muslim country and region, including gaza - yet we never heard you complain once about them. As for the arabs who call themselves "palestinians," they are simply a part of the arab muslim world, nothing unique to them.

You're as FOS as they are.

The Arab dictators, with the exception of Assad and the late Sadaam Hussein and Ghedaffi, are supported and in many cases kept in power by the U.S.

Really? How was that, chimp? Are there US soldiers and US-placed leaders in these countries sustaining the current regimes the way the USSR had troops on the ground and implanted leaders in TWENTY-ONE countries until 1989? That the US is an ALLY does not mean that the US is "propping up" or keeping anyone in power - grow up, dimwit and turn off World Socialist Daily propaganda garbage.

Secular Arab states like Iraq was and Syria is had problems, but were socially advanced.

Really? Like 85% of the syrian population that was sunni was almost completely marginalized, and the shia majority in iraq subjugated and oppressed, even massacred at times - none of which had a thing to do with the US. The vast majority of both groups were heavily impoverished.

Iraq and Syria had/have women in leadership positions, the Syrian army has Christians in its officer corps and Iraq had Christians ministers.

So fucking what? Iran has a token jew in its parliament, big fucking deal. They were there for show, nothing more.

You won't find that in the U.S. supported Gulf states or Saudi Arabia which are socially in the stone age.

What's funny is that assholes like this attack the US for trying to overthrow some regimes, but if it doesn't, it is "supporting" others that are bad. Make up your mind, dimwit. The way that these regimes govern internally is none of the US' business, and how a country allied with the US operates its government, civil rights, etc., is not the US' business either. Besides, hypocritical idiot, if the US were to start trying to interfere with other countries' conduct, frauds like you would be the first to complain about it. You have ZERO credibility.

What's funnier is that punks like you that know absolutely nothing continue demonstrating, in writing, what morons they are. Listen punk, I was stationed in Saudi Arabia (after a tour in Vietnam) before anyone really knew that U.S. training missions were in the country. Yes, I am retired Army. I have forgotten more about Saudi Arabia than you will ever learn. I ate goat and drank whiskey with Saudis that are now in leadership positions. I know what these people are like in a way you will never know. So just shut the f-ck up. If the U.S. would stop supporting the tyrants and Israel, we would have many less problems punk.

 

[rhodescholar]

What's funnier is that punks like you that know absolutely nothing continue demonstrating, in writing, what morons they are. Listen punk, I was stationed in Saudi Arabia (after a tour in Vietnam) before anyone really knew that U.S. training missions were in the country. Yes, I am retired Army. I have forgotten more about Saudi Arabia than you will ever learn. I ate goat and drank whiskey with Saudis that are now in leadership positions. I know what these people are like in a way you will never know. So just shut the f-ck up. If the U.S. would stop supporting the tyrants and Israel, we would have many less problems punk.

Funny how this dimwitted chimp insults, but never addresses any of my points, as to be expected from small-brained monkeys with big internet bravado and little else.

Second, you are not the only one with military svce, and the fact that it was "after a tour in viet nam" 45 years ago means whatever info you have is long past its useful life.

Third, to claim that the support of israel creates problems is a sign of lunacy; only an idiot would even think it. 500 million hostile, murderous, ethnic cleansing, intolerant, racist arabs and iranians don't like democratic israel? Who gives a fuck, idiot, no one like them either. As long as they are intolerant, violent neanderthalic garbage, i don't give a shit what their (or your) opinion is.

Last, little monkey - I AM FROM THE MIDEAST, you weak turd LOL, so hearing some 60's era dipshit who last served almost 50 years ago lecture me on the mideast because he "had a cup of whiskey with an arab" is too fucking hilarious. I don't know whether you are more hilarious than pathetic - but you are dumb, that's for certain LOL.

 

[toastman]

Monti, rhodescholar is abaolutely right. You have zero credibility. Post afer post after post of lies. Distorting of history, deluded statements...

No one here should take you seriously.

 

[Challenger]

Originally posted by Challenger
There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent.

Well, there is another view, which I happen to share, that the mere fact of being a citizen of Israel, of living in the state of Israel is full of moral dilemmas.

6, 8 years ago I read about an Israeli citizen, a beautiful jewish woman, with long, dark hair, who gave up her citizenship and immigrated to Australia on purely moral grounds. She said she couldn't stand being a citizen and paying taxes that one way or the other would end up financing the repression of the palestinian people.

And I don't think she's the only one.

If I were an Israeli citizen serving the Army would be totally out of question. And I suspect I would end up joining her in exile...

I'd probably go to the US, Australia or New Zealand where my tax money would get a less depraved destination, where Indians, Aborigines and Maoris are at least being currently compensated for their losses at the hands of the white supremacist states instead of being locked in reservations... getting casinos, financial subsidies, etc... instead of walls, electrified fences, minefields and machine gun nests.

I think Haaretz reported the other day in a post- Gaza massacre Opinion poll, 30% of Jewish Israelis polled want to leave the Zionist state if they got the chance.

 

[Challenger]

"There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent. However, during our military service we learned that intelligence is a inseparable part of military rule in the Territories.

The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself.

In many cases, intelligence prevents doing proper justice to the accused under military courts through preventing him from seeing the evidence against him. Intelligence enables continuing rule over millions of people, authority that is deep and penetrates into every facet of daily life. These things prevent normal life and spark further violence and further distance any end of the conflict." -- excerpt from Unit 8200 letter,

Unit 8200, whose ethical standards have been described as “without rival in the intelligence community in Israel or the world”

Wiretaps against Palestinians are wrong Israeli ex-spies tell Netanyahu - Yahoo News UK

Funny how dipshits like this are so, so terribly concerned about the civil rights of arabs and their treatment by israel, but never mention a fucking word how hamas or arab governments operate.

No comments about the lack of free speech, assembly, or press, lack of women's and gay rights in gaza, or about the ethnic cleansing of non-muslims out of gaza - and the entire middle east?

Stop fucking wasting our time with bullshit like wire-tapping, and stop enabling the worst scum of humanity known as arab leadership, such as hamas. If turds like you would put pressure where it should be - on the arabs - to better themselves and stop dumbing down standards and excusing away their shit behavior, the mideast would be a much better place. Instead, they have lots of useful idiots like you apologizing away their dreadful behavior, helping them to blame everyone else, and the rational amongst us sees right through your transparent nonsense.

Wow, someone just doesn't get it. This is 43 Zionist Israeli equivalents of Amercan NSA "spooks" saying in public, "what we're doing is wrong and just makes things worse". This is a big deal that's never happened before to my knowledge and it's a major crack in the Zionist regime and vindicates what many anti-Zionists have been saying for years.

I've found a translation of the whole letter,

"We the undersigned, veterans of Unit 8200, current and past reserve soldiers, declare that we refuse to take part in activities against the Palestinians and refuse to participate in or enable the deepening of military rule in the Occupied Territories.

There is a view that service in IDF intelligence is devoid of moral dilemmas and contributes only to preventing violence and injury to the innocent. However, during our military service we learned that intelligence is a inseparable part of military rule in the Territories. The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself. In many cases, intelligence prevents doing proper justice to the accused under military courts through preventing him from seeing the evidence against him. Intelligence enables continuing rule over millions of people, authority that is deep and penetrates into every facet of daily life. These things prevent normal life and spark further violence and further distance any end of the conflict.

Millions of Palestinians have lived under Israeli military rule for 47 years. This rule negates their basic rights and expropriates their lands in order to settle Jews upon them who are subject to a separate police, legal and judicial system. Such a reality is not a part of the efforts of the state to defend itself, but rather a result of a choice. Broadening the settlements has nothing to do with self-defense. Nor does limiting [Palestinan] building and development and economic exploitation of the West Bank, or the collective punishment of residents of Gaza, or the route of the Separation Wall.

In light of this, we have reached the conclusion that we who served in Unit 8200 have a responsibility for this situation and a responsibility to act. Our consciences do not permit us to continue serving this system, which damages the rights of millions of human beings. Therefore those among us who are reservists declare that we will refuse to take part in operations against Palestinians. We call upon intelligence officers, currently and in future, and all Israeli citizens, to make their voices heard against these injustices and to act to bring them to an end. We believe that Israel’s future depends on it."

As for the rest of the Middle East, the current mess is American made, so America should fix it. Stop supporting and propping up dictatorships, sorry, "monarchies" and "puppet Prime Ministers", allow true democracy into the region. Get all Western troops out and let the locals sort it out amongst themselves.

 

[docmauser1]

The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself. ...[drivel]

So, 47 leftist, scared shitless, loons, whatever, we know that jews are, indeed, better, although confirming that time and again is welcome, of course. So, when are we treated by news of thousands of "salam now" peace-loving palistanian demonstrators in Ramallah and Gaza? Islam is the "religion of peace", after all, or so the contention goes, doesn't it?

 

[docmauser1]

I'd probably go to the US, Australia or New Zealand where my tax money would get a less depraved destination, where Indians, Aborigines and Maoris are at least being currently compensated for their losses at the hands of the white supremacist states instead of being locked in reservations... getting casinos, financial subsidies, etc... instead of walls, electrified fences, minefields and machine gun nests.

Bon voyage!

 

[Challenger]

The Palestinian population, living under a military regime, is completely exposed to spying and surveillance of Israeli intelligence. As opposed to Israeli citizens and citizens of other nations, there is no supervision ["review"] of methods of gathering, tracking or using intelligence information related to the Palestinians, whether they are involved in violence or not. Information gathered damages the innocent and is used for political persecution and creating divisions within Palestinian society through recruitment of collaborators and turning of Palestinian society against itself. ...[drivel]

So, 47 leftist, scared shitless, loons, whatever, we know that jews are, indeed, better, although confirming that time and again is welcome, of course. So, when are we treated by news of thousands of "salam now" peace-loving palistanian demonstrators in Ramallah and Gaza? Islam is the "religion of peace", after all, or so the contention goes, doesn't it?

You wish. These are professional intelligence operatives whose job is to know what's really going on. Make all the unsubstantiated allegations against them you like and try to change the subject to obfuscate the matter but it won't change the fact that the Zionist wet dream edifice is starting to crumble, tap, tap,tap, there goes another brick.

 

[rhodescholar]

I think Haaretz reported the other day in a post- Gaza massacre Opinion poll, 30% of Jewish Israelis polled want to leave the Zionist state if they got the chance.

So what? 99% of arab muslims want to leave the middle east. Serves them right for adhering to their diseased, cancerous death cult called "islam."

 

[rhodescholar]

Wow, someone just doesn't get it. This is 43 Zionist Israeli equivalents of Amercan NSA "spooks" saying in public, "what we're doing is wrong and just makes things worse". This is a big deal that's never happened before to my knowledge and it's a major crack in the Zionist regime and vindicates what many anti-Zionists have been saying for years.

Amazing how we see so much self-reflection from israelis, one wonders how come arab muslims are so totally incapable of the same?

We never see arab muslims question whether all of that mindless terrorism, violence, ethnic cleansing of all non-muslims out of the middle east, is acceptable. We never see arab muslims question why their diseased, cancerous culture of death is so far behind the rest of the world in development, or whether the use of terrorism instead of diplomacy is legitimate. Instead, we see frauds like this chimp of a poster relentlessly attacking israel while wholly ignoring the far, far more egregious and despicable actions of the arab muslims. Just hilarious.

 

[bodecea]

obama will rue the day.

Rue what day?

 

[rhodescholar]

As for the rest of the Middle East, the current mess is American made, so America should fix it. Stop supporting and propping up dictatorships, sorry, "monarchies" and "puppet Prime Ministers", allow true democracy into the region. Get all Western troops out and let the locals sort it out amongst themselves.

Yes shit for brains, america is responsible for the monstrosity that is the middle east today, suuuuurrrreee...

Shit bag, if you are going to complain about dictatorships, when are you going to complain about russia propping up iran and syria?

 

[docmauser1]

So, 47 leftist, scared shitless, loons, whatever, we know that jews are, indeed, better, although confirming that time and again is welcome, of course. So, when are we treated by news of thousands of "salam now" peace-loving palistanian demonstrators in Ramallah and Gaza? Islam is the "religion of peace", after all, or so the contention goes, doesn't it?

You wish.

I don't wish - I know, of course.

These are professional intelligence operatives whose job is to know what's really going on.

Drivel. Reserve. Neither "professional", nor "operatives", of course. About five years ago a similar group of leftist asshole pilots made a similar démarche with a refusal to "bomb" Gaza, funny, all of them were transport pilots from the airlift command, nothing "attacking", nothing "bombing", of course. hehe

Make all the unsubstantiated allegations against them you like and try to change the subject to obfuscate the matter but it won't change the fact that the Zionist wet dream edifice is starting to crumble, tap, tap,tap, there goes another brick.

Silly drivel. Bth., when are we treated by news of thousands of "salam now" peace-loving palistanian demonstrators in Ramallah and Gaza? Islam is the "religion of peace", after all, or so the contention goes, doesn't it?

 

[Challenger]

...Reserve. Neither "professional", nor "operatives", of course. About five years ago a similar group of leftist asshole pilots made a similar démarche with a refusal to "bomb" Gaza, funny, all of them were transport pilots from the airlift command, nothing "attacking", nothing "bombing", of course. hehe

Every country has is share of conscientious objectors, that's nothing new. What's different here is that for Intelligence work the individuals would(should) have been carefully vetted and be considered politically reliable. For a one "spook" to go off the reservation is remarkable, for 43 members of what is considered an elite intelligence gathering unit to do so, regardless of their status, demonstrates a serious underlying problem with either the IDF or the Zionist regime. Given also that these people know exactly what goes on, it's a damning endictment of Zionist policies in Occupied Palestine.