Foul drinking water aboard airliners worsens

[CivilLiberty]

In many instances, they have outlived their usefullness and they actually have become more of the problem than anything else.

Here in Vegas the culinary union rails against the Venetian because the owner refuses to allow the unions in and they claim it is unfair and a travesty, yet the Venetian employees get better salaries, better benefits and work less hours than their fellow culinary workers that work at unionized casinos. The union bosses are just pissed because they don't have another source of dues to fill THEIR pockets with.

Okay, so how is the union a "problem" for the Venetian? They're non union, as is their right, I fail to see the problem.



Regards,

Andy

 

[freeandfun1]

Okay, so how is the union a "problem" for the Venetian? They're non union, as is their right, I fail to see the problem.




Regards,

Andy

They (the union) constantly picket the hotel, harrass the guests, block the entrances, etc. The same thing the culinary union did when the Frontier Hotel busted the union there.

 

[Mr. P]

As I indicated before, "they" are a part of the problem in the same way rising oil prices, FAA regs, and new aircraft are a part of the "problem".


Andy

So I guess you can explain why Southwest Airlines is making a profit and Delta just had the biggest lose in airline history..They both deal with FAA regs, new aircraft and fuel prices..
I give ya a hint...No Union at Southwest.

 

[freeandfun1]

I notice a lack of response. I guess he is stumped! lol

 

[CivilLiberty]

So I guess you can explain why Southwest Airlines is making a profit and Delta just had the biggest lose in airline history..They both deal with FAA regs, new aircraft and fuel prices..
I give ya a hint...No Union at Southwest.

FALSE. Southwest DOES have unions. 85% of Southwest's workforce is union. Why is Southwest doing better? Because it's a better run business.


Andy

 

[CivilLiberty]

I notice a lack of response. I guess he is stumped! lol

Jesus Christ, do you guys think all I do is sit here waiting to respond?

Please. I *do* have work to do.



Please see the above response to the completely false comment regarding SWA.

Regards,


Andy

 

[CivilLiberty]

They (the union) constantly picket the hotel, harrass the guests, block the entrances, etc. The same thing the culinary union did when the Frontier Hotel busted the union there.

Really? I've never seen that when I've been there. I remember the Frontier issue, and as I recall the county passed an ordinance blocking such actions on the strip (as they can under time/place/manner restrictions). Is that ordinance no longer in place?

"Harassing" guests on the private property of the Venetian is illegal, and those persons can be arrested, so why aren't they?

Andy

 

[Eightball]

I'll take a stab at the Union question or debate.

I'm a long time member of a construction Union. I have had the opportunity to see both good and bad aspects of unionism in the work area.

Unions have given the common man a better level of living through higher wages, medical benifits, on-job safety, and many other areas of living. In fact non-union businesses have often copied or closely matched benefits and wages of their similiarly employed workers. Many countrys of the world lack a middle class population, and only have a large lower class and an upper class. I think that unions have helped perpetuate or sustain a middle class in the U.S..

Now with that said, I have personally witnessed the ugly side of unionism. I have seen union workers take advantage of their protection under their union by not putting in good hard work days, but just coasting along knowing that their layoff would be a difficult proceedure. I have seen union workers literally split hairs over working 5 minutes past quitting time or starting work 2 minutes before starting time, yet hypocritically take a 45 minute lunch when they are only allowed 30 minutes! Unions have protected bad workers! Unions have created workers that are activists who spend more time trying to find infractions of union rules on the job than trying to perpetuate productivity.

Unions have COPE funds that are usually made up of volluntary donations made during union meetings. COPE donations always end up going to democratic candidates, regardless even if the majority of the members in the Union are conservative, and believe me, there are a lot of conservatives who are union members. Unfortunately, union leadership both at the National level and local level still holds and iron fist over where their money's are donated, and 99.99% of union money's go to liberals or Democrats.

President Reagan won an incredible mandate in his last four years, and had the support of the majority of union members, except for FAA workers(air controllers) who were fired by his administration for an unauthorized strike.

As a AFL/CIO Electrical Construction Worker(IBEW), I have found that there are many more conservatives in my union and trade, but we do not get a voice. As a result, many electricians don't donate to COPE funds anymore, and many don't even attend union meetings. We are thankful for the bargaining power of the union. As individuals, we wouldn't have the clout or leverage to seek wages or benefits. Again, non-union electricians draw benefits and wages very close to union electricians, and they can thank the unions for that.

Anyway, bottom line, Unions have helped the average working man overall, whether a union member or not, but the unions have also lost sight of keeping America competitive, production-wise with the rest of the world. Concessions are being painfully made by unions at greater rates than ever before so that American products, and productivity will continue to be competitive.

Unions membership in the U.S. is dropping. At their inception, they gave the working man a voice, and also allowed him to put more than soup on his table each night. I think that unions will gradually re-structure their tactics/bargaining to reflect the times.

Regards, Eightballsidepocket

 

[Mr. P]

FALSE. Southwest DOES have unions. 85% of Southwest's workforce is union. Why is Southwest doing better? Because it's a better run business.


Andy

Well, we were talking Pilots here weren't we?
SWAL has a non-profit employee association representing the pilots, which is quite different
from ALPA the Pilot UNION that Delta Pilots have.

Delta has the highest operating cost in the industry, with pilots wages accounting for 1/3
of that cost, while SWAL has the lowest operating cost. Now ya just have to ask why.
The answer is far from just bad management. Could it be that an employee run Pilot association
has an interest in the efficient operation of the company and keep costs down, while a National Union could care less about efficient operation.

As I said, it's not all the fault of the pilots but when they account for 1/3 of the operating cost,
and astronomical amount for just one group, they and their Union ALPA must accept 33% of the blame.

I would suggest that SWAL is better run in part because the Pilots have not accepted ALPA to represent them.

Would you have a link for the 85% Union figure by chance?

 

[freeandfun1]

Really? I've never seen that when I've been there. I remember the Frontier issue, and as I recall the county passed an ordinance blocking such actions on the strip (as they can under time/place/manner restrictions). Is that ordinance no longer in place?

"Harassing" guests on the private property of the Venetian is illegal, and those persons can be arrested, so why aren't they?

Andy

First off, on the Frontier issue, they had to move out to the sidewalk, but if you went inside, when you came out they would scream epitaths at you, etc.

As for the Venetian, perhaps the police are doing nothing because this is THEIR take on the issue:

Police union flier targets The Venetian
A notice to travel agents across the nation cautions that visitors to a new resort may see `confrontations.'

By Glenn Puit
Review-Journal

The union representing most Las Vegas police officers has circulated a flier that urges travel agents nationwide to steer tourists away from The Venetian.
The mass mailing has upset Clark County Sheriff Jerry Keller, who is concerned the flier could be mistakenly viewed as the position of the Metropolitan Police Department.
"It was not well-received," said Las Vegas police spokesman Steve Meriwether.
"The union did it and we have nothing to do with it. The sheriff is aware of it and he has since been in contact with the union."
Las Vegas Sands Inc. Chairman Sheldon Adelson dressed down the union Saturday for the flier, describing it as an irresponsible scare tactic that will deter tourism in a city dependent on the industry. Las Vegas Sands owns The Venetian.
"It is scandalous and shameful," Adelson said. "They are not smart enough to recognize that when you are terrorizing one hotel, you are terrorizing all of Las Vegas."
A spokesman for the Las Vegas Police Protective Association did not return a page seeking comment Saturday, and there was no response to a phone message left at union headquarters Saturday afternoon.
The flier's contents were defended by Tom Snyder, a Culinary union organizer, who said the mailing is a necessary and justifiable attempt to inform tourists that when they stay at The Venetian, picket lines will be a part of the visit.
The Venetian is scheduled to open Monday night.
Several thousand union protesters are expected to form picket lines in front of the resort, 3355 Las Vegas Blvd. South. Culinary Local 226 is upset that Venetian officials have not guaranteed contracts for the $1.5 billion property's 8,000 workers.
Snyder said the flier was mailed to travel agents nationwide in a show of solidarity between the Culinary union and the Police Protective Association, and that the wording in the flier is directed at The Venetian, not Las Vegas or other resorts.
"All across the city, hotel and restaurant workers receive good wages and excellent company benefits," Snyder said. "If Mr. Adelson has his way with The Venetian, we could lose all of that. In addition to our activities in Las Vegas, naturally we are going to make the public aware of these issues around the country."
The flier, topped with the label "Labor Trouble Travel Bulletin," states that "when a hotel/casino owner tries to open a new establishment vowing to destroy the union, there are large demonstrations, disruptions, confrontations and police activity. Often, hundreds of arrests are made after a single incident."
In bold black type, it states: "Please advise your travelers that The Venetian will experience union activities which may result in unpleasant experiences."
Adelson said the mailing is designed to look like a product of police and not the union. He said it would be impossible to adequately measure how damaging the flier could be to Las Vegas tourism or Venetian business.
"When you use the words `hundreds of arrests, confrontations and demonstrations,' it is scare mongering," Adelson said. "It sounds like a police warning of some kind. They are trying to bring down the whole city with their negativity. It is highly dangerous and highly irresponsible."
Snyder said the Culinary union stands by the mailing.
"It is truthful, accurate and fair," he said. "It is specific to The Venetian, and it simply makes travel agents around the country aware that, at The Venetian, there are likely to be demonstrations and picket lines."
Adelson called for a state law mandating police unions take the word "police" out of their titles.
This is not the first time the Las Vegas police union has been accused of circulating misleading and even tasteless information. During last year's Clark County Commission race between Erin Kenny and retired Highway Patrol trooper Steve Harney, the union sent out a flier attacking Harney and informing voters about a federal lawsuit filed against him and others by trooper Ken Gager.
In that flier, Gager, who was maimed in a Northern Nevada bomb blast, is shown in one picture with a mangled face and an empty eye socket, and in another shirtless with gashes across his chest.
During the same commission race, which Kenny eventually won, the police union conducted taped phone solicitations to voters' homes in which union President Andy Anderson criticized Adelson for a $2 million political ad campaign against Democratic commission candidates, including Kenny. During the solicitation, Anderson is quoted as saying "our community is in danger" and "your police organizations strongly urge you to elect" Kenny.
In the midst of those two controversies, the union did not respond to requests for comment.

Tuesday, March 05, 2002
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal
THE VENETIAN: Sidewalk appeal declined

U.S. Supreme Court lets stand ruling that walkway constitutes public forum
By CARRI GEER THEVENOT
REVIEW-JOURNAL

The U.S. Supreme Court declined without comment Monday to consider an appeal filed by The Venetian in its long-standing fight with union members to control the use of its sidewalk.

In doing so, the court let stand the July decision of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that the sidewalk in front of the Strip resort constitutes a public forum where individuals have the right to exercise their First Amendment freedoms.

"That is the end of the case," union attorney Richard McCracken said Monday. "That is now the law."

The case began with a lawsuit The Venetian filed shortly after a March 1999 protest by union members at the Strip resort, which was under construction at the time.

More than 1,000 union members rallied to protest Sheldon Adelson's claim that Las Vegas Sands Inc., The Venetian's parent company, owns the sidewalk outside the resort and has the right to control access to its property. Adelson is chairman of Las Vegas Sands.

Police made no arrests at the demonstration after seeking advice from Clark County District Attorney Stewart Bell.

Clark County was named as a defendant in The Venetian's lawsuit, as were the Culinary and Bartenders unions.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada later intervened in the case on behalf of the unions, and the county adopted a neutral position.

"It's pretty clear, now that the dust has settled, that these sidewalks are a public forum for all free speech activities, whether the land under any of these sidewalks is publicly or privately owned," ACLU attorney Allen Lichtenstein said Monday.

As part of its lawsuit, The Venetian sought a court order declaring that the resort's "privately owned and maintained pedestrian walkway does not constitute a public forum."

U.S. District Judge Philip Pro of Las Vegas first ruled on the case in April 1999, when he denied a request by The Venetian for a temporary restraining order that would have prevented the public from engaging in unauthorized activity on the sidewalk.

In August 1999, Pro reaffirmed his ruling, concluding that "sidewalks have long been recognized as a public forum giving citizens a right of access for First Amendment purposes."

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which is based in San Francisco, upheld Pro's decision with a 2-1 opinion.

In reaching its conclusion, the appeals court considered "the historically public character" of the sidewalk and the fact that it is connected to public sidewalks to its north and south.

According to the opinion, members of the public have the right "to pass across The Venetian's property along Las Vegas Boulevard and to express themselves as they do so with the same freedom as on any public sidewalk."

The Venetian then asked the Supreme Court to review the case.

"I thought it was the type of case the Supreme Court should have taken, because I don't think you or anyone else would want to own a piece of private property and then have people be able to come in and use it in a way you don't want them to, just because it looks like a piece of public property," Washington, D.C., attorney William Coleman Jr. said Monday.

Coleman worked on the case for The Venetian with attorney Walter Dellinger, who was acting solicitor general under President Clinton from August 1996 to August 1997. Coleman became a law clerk in 1948 for then-Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter and later was secretary of Transportation under President Ford.

Coleman refused to declare Monday's development the end of The Venetian's battle for control of its sidewalk.

"I hope that somehow we can still get it before a court to get them to look at it properly," he said.

The attorney declined to reveal what approach his client would take to achieve that goal.

McCracken said nothing can be done to change the outcome of the case.

"They'd have to rewrite the Constitution," he said. "Some people will never say die."

On Monday, Lichtenstein stuck to his previous contention that The Venetian case will have implications for other casinos on the Strip, including The Mirage and Treasure Island.

In a mixed opinion, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled in May that those two casinos could restrict the distribution of sexually oriented handbills on their sidewalks.

The ruling upheld a preliminary injunction issued by Clark County District Judge Michael Cherry in 1999. It applied to Hillsboro Enterprises and S.O.C., businesses that regularly hire canvassers to distribute material advertising erotic dance entertainment to tourists.

Attorney Cal Potter, who represents S.O.C., said the two businesses have been abiding by the injunction but hope the ruling in The Venetian case will help their cause when they return to Cherry's courtroom. No trial date has been set for the District Court case.

Hillsboro and S.O.C. also are waiting for a final judgment from Senior U.S. District Judge Lloyd George, who issued a preliminary injunction blocking enforcement of a county ordinance that prohibited the distribution of commercial pamphlets in the county's resort district.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Well, we were talking Pilots here weren't we?

I thought we were talking about all unions.

SWAL has a non-profit employee association representing the pilots, which is quite different
from ALPA the Pilot UNION that Delta Pilots have.

Good for SWA. It was a good business decision to start an association (i.e. a union) that was separate from ALPA, and to give their pilots PROFIT SHARING as part of their compensation package. This was a good business decision on SWA's part. Something perhaps Delta could learn from.

Delta has the highest operating cost in the industry, with pilots wages accounting for 1/3
of that cost, while SWAL has the lowest operating cost. Now ya just have to ask why.
The answer is far from just bad management. Could it be that an employee run Pilot association
has an interest in the efficient operation of the company and keep costs down, while a National Union could care less about efficient operation.

I think you meant that Delta pilots account for 1/3 of the total WORKFORCE cost - the ENTIRE Delta workforce accounts for 35% of the total operating cost, which is standard for the industry.

I would suggest that SWAL is better run in part because the Pilots have not accepted ALPA to represent them.

And the pilots have not accept ALPA because SWA has an aggressive profit sharing and benefits package that the pilots accepted OVER ALPA.


Let me say again: Delta is a poorly run business. Until Carter deregulated in 1978, airlines were fat businesses sucking off the socialist tit of Roosevelt era policies. After deregulation, only the strongest survived, some thrived with their unions, others made bad business and poor negotiations.

The real "killer" of the airline industry is 9/11. And in the wake of 9/11, through many negotiations, the UNIONs have made deep concessions and re-negotiated contracts. Delta's problems is bad management, and you can't place the "blame" anywhere else.

Would you have a link for the 85% Union figure by chance?

http://www.southwest.com/swatakeoff/southwest_wing_0406.pdf


Andy

 

[5stringJeff]

Andy, I will not disagree that some airlines have bad business models, and that deregulation allowed the good to rise and the bad to sink. My assertion is only that the unions that entrenched themselves during regulation are not allowing the CEOs to change the business structures as fast they would like to - or need to.

 

[CivilLiberty]

First off, on the Frontier issue, they had to move out to the sidewalk, but if you went inside, when you came out they would scream epitaths at you, etc.

I remember the protest stand, I used to work in Vegas, and I went to the Frontier alot as it was the only place on the strip with 10X odds on craps. But I never had anyone "harass" me - or even shout at me. Or if they did I probably just shouted at them to fuck off, as I so frequently do...



As to the SCOTUS not hearing that case, I'm a bit surprised, as they've ruled in the past that commercial property is not a public forum.

What I'm unclear about, is this the sidewalk that next to the street, or an internal sidewalk?

A

 

[CivilLiberty]

Andy, I will not disagree that some airlines have bad business models, and that deregulation allowed the good to rise and the bad to sink. My assertion is only that the unions that entrenched themselves during regulation are not allowing the CEOs to change the business structures as fast they would like to - or need to.

Since I would never ever invest in an airline (I like tech...and doughnuts), I don't study the industry - but having worked with both union and non-union environments, I know it takes two to tango.


A

 

[freeandfun1]

What I'm unclear about, is this the sidewalk that next to the street, or an internal sidewalk?

A

The hotel claims it is private, especially since they had to pay for the construction of it, but so far, the courts say it is public.

My main point about all this is that even when employees vote to not go union, the unions band together to cause trouble for the business.

Unions in of themselves might not be bad and have good intentions, but just as with the corporations the union management rail against, many of the unions are as corrupt as can be and often they do not have the union members' interests at heart as much as their own interests.

A good example is how right before Christmas, the unions forced to hotels to close and lay-off thousands of workers because the hotels, if they paid the union dues the union insisted on collecting, couldn't meet the minimum cash amounts required to have in reserve to operate (gaming commission requires a minimum amount of cash to always be "on premise" for payouts). The unions say they care about the employees, but in these two instances, they didn't mind the employees being laid-off just as the holidays approached.

 

[freeandfun1]

And one more point, the hotels were trying to get the unions to work with them and accept a partial payment but the union refused. so it can't all be blamed on poor management. the hotels were in the old downtown area and none of the casinos down there do as well as the strip.

 

[Mr. P]

...

Let me say again: Delta is a poorly run business. Until Carter deregulated in 1978, airlines were fat businesses sucking off the socialist tit of Roosevelt era policies. After deregulation, only the strongest survived, some thrived with their unions, others made bad business and poor negotiations....
Andy

Regulation did not allow competition. Deregulation did not result in any thriving.
It's taken 20+ years for the big fat cats to fall. Delta is the last major of the pre-deregulated airlines to fall. Hey, maybe that proves us both wrong..They had to do something right to last so long while so many were falling.

The real "killer" of the airline industry is 9/11. And in the wake of 9/11, through many negotiations, the UNIONs have made deep concessions and re-negotiated contracts. Delta's problems is bad management, and you can't place the "blame" anywhere else.

First of all, the airline industry is not dead. Only the pre-deregulation industry is dead, just accelerated by 9/11. To accept that the real killer was 9/11, you would have to be able to explain a connection between the bankruptcy of United, Pan am, USAir, TWA and many others before 9/11, you can't, there is no connection. The industry is alive and well. The public is benefiting from competition..the only loser is the Unions.