for Sky and godspeaker: Steps to Forgiveness

[AVG-JOE]

Wow! You are simply a FOUNTAIN of knowledge, Miss Emily!

I maintain that forgiveness, wisdom, consideration, love, and all the other admirable human attributes that we see in people in varying enough degrees to refer to them as 'personality traits' comes from the same source as the vile human characteristics of greed, hate, cruelty, malice and the like: our own humanity and chosen attitudes.

The Devil didn't make you take the bigger hunk of pie anymore than The Holy Spirit encouraged you to drop a dollar in the bucket for Disabled Vets. You did.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I'm not a big fan of Forgiveness. I tend to go down one of two paths when wronged.

1. Get MAD and STAY MAD

2. Get EVEN.

How is that working out for you, Man Out O' Time?

The internet being the internet, that is a shit-load of 'grudge' to be carting about....

 

[Sky Dancer]

Apparently she thinks sky and godspeaker need her advice. There are many, many ways of working through trauma. Forgiveness implies it's ok terrible things happen. It's not.

What can happen is an acceptance that things really were that bad, and they were hurtful, and developing a kindness toward all the places that hurt.

I think it's crap and phony, this forgiveness. Some things are unforgivable because they are abominable. Do we forgive Hitler for the holocaust
Are you going to tell the Jews they SHOULD forgive the Nazi's? Start a thread on that emmmy.

If you read the list,
Forgiveness is NOT about condoning, denying or not acknowledging the wrong.
It IS about acknowledging all that.

It is just about agreeing NOT to carry the emotional burden of
hatred or ill will toward that person, which only hurts the victim more!

So I agree with what you said about "radical acceptance" (whether you call this just letting go, or just having equal compassion for all people regardless what they did or didn't do).

Just NOT "deliberately holding on" to the burdens emotionally.
That is what forgiveness is about, whatever you call it, whatever steps it takes to let go.

If the pain is naturally there, that is not deliberately holding on.
That part needs to be acknowledged and is not being denied.

Only where someone refuses to let go of blaming someone consciously,
that can cause continued pain and mental anguish TO THE VICTIM of the wrong,
(by attaching negative energy blocking the natural flow of positive energy the mind or body normally uses to heal itself).

So "unforgiveness" does not help the person heal already injured by the abuse or wrong.
At most, it creates a wall to keep that person cut off until that person feels safe again.
It may serve as temporary protection, like a scab, but at some point the wound needs to be able to breathe and heal freely and naturally, not blocked up and covered up by emotional attachments. These are natural reactions, but at some point they must let go.

Sky, you already know all this, and I'm sorry it annoyed or insulted you so much which is never my intent.

If you can post your words and your ways of "radical acceptance" that would be more beneficial. I'm sure there are more similarities as to what the end goal is.

Where these methods agree are the most important anyway.
I would love to read more of your way of teaching steps to healing and recovery.

Each method helps different people in different situations.
So whatever works, I believe people should be encouraged to try that!

Thanks, Sky
Yours truly,
Emily

So if you weren't trying to single them out, why call them out? Why not just name the thread the 17 step program for forgiveness?

Exactly. The calling us out as needing to forgive others is a sign of a lack of acceptance. Apparently, emily is of the opinion that we need to be fixed.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky is such a hypocrite.

How many threads has she started exactly like this to sneakily lambast other posters, hiding behind a "trying to bring everybody together" or "seeking enlightenment" facade?

This is flipping great. And it places Sky securely with the nutjobs, which is where she belongs.

I am sad, however, that Anassronism wasn't identified as well, though. That would make the "3 Crazy Amigos" nutbar trio complete.

Hi Allie: So maybe it was Sky's karma coming back to her.
She asked me to stop, so maybe this is a chance to turn a new leaf and stop.

Since I can't change the subject, I asked her help to change the use of the thread
where it would be equally open to her posting or sharing her methods of letting go.

Maybe I should ask her formally:

Sky: May I please ask your help to post more details on the methods you mentioned of "radical acceptance"? It seems there are other people who don't get that "forgiveness" means letting go of the painful emotions and doesn't mean to overlook the wrongs.
This is a common misperception of what forgiveness is and is not.

Your way of explaining the healing process may relate to more people here.
Can you share an explanation or example which might be helpful to more people?
Or start a new thread posting this?

Thanks,
Emily

No, I won't explain radical acceptance to you. Tara Brach has a website anyone can google. Neither will I share the methods I have been training in this week to work on my inner life.


I'm taking time to leave the forum, not starting new threads.

You're incredibly presumptuous with people you don't know. I have spent this entire week at a training dealing with my compulsion to argue religion and politics on messageboards.

 

[Samson]

I would love to read more of your way of teaching steps to healing and recovery.

Thanks, Sky
Yours truly,
Emily

Step 1: 3 fingers of single malt scotch.

 

[Samson]

Sky is such a hypocrite.

How many threads has she started exactly like this to sneakily lambast other posters, hiding behind a "trying to bring everybody together" or "seeking enlightenment" facade?

This is flipping great. And it places Sky securely with the nutjobs, which is where she belongs.

I am sad, however, that Anassronism wasn't identified as well, though. That would make the "3 Crazy Amigos" nutbar trio complete.

Hi Allie: So maybe it was Sky's karma coming back to her.
She asked me to stop, so maybe this is a chance to turn a new leaf and stop.

Since I can't change the subject, I asked her help to change the use of the thread
where it would be equally open to her posting or sharing her methods of letting go.

Maybe I should ask her formally:

Sky: May I please ask your help to post more details on the methods you mentioned of "radical acceptance"? It seems there are other people who don't get that "forgiveness" means letting go of the painful emotions and doesn't mean to overlook the wrongs.
This is a common misperception of what forgiveness is and is not.

Your way of explaining the healing process may relate to more people here.
Can you share an explanation or example which might be helpful to more people?
Or start a new thread posting this?

Thanks,
Emily

No, I won't emily. I'm taking time to leave the forum, not starting new threads. You're incredibly presumptuous with people you don't know.

If it makes you feel better, Emily is very sympathetic to the GLBT community

 

[Sky Dancer]

Hi Allie: So maybe it was Sky's karma coming back to her.
She asked me to stop, so maybe this is a chance to turn a new leaf and stop.

Since I can't change the subject, I asked her help to change the use of the thread
where it would be equally open to her posting or sharing her methods of letting go.

Maybe I should ask her formally:

Sky: May I please ask your help to post more details on the methods you mentioned of "radical acceptance"? It seems there are other people who don't get that "forgiveness" means letting go of the painful emotions and doesn't mean to overlook the wrongs.
This is a common misperception of what forgiveness is and is not.

Your way of explaining the healing process may relate to more people here.
Can you share an explanation or example which might be helpful to more people?
Or start a new thread posting this?

Thanks,
Emily

No, I won't emily. I'm taking time to leave the forum, not starting new threads. You're incredibly presumptuous with people you don't know.

If it makes you feel better, Emily is very sympathetic to the GLBT community

That emily is sympathetic to the GLBT community doesn't affect my decision.

 

[Samson]

No, I won't emily. I'm taking time to leave the forum, not starting new threads. You're incredibly presumptuous with people you don't know.

If it makes you feel better, Emily is very sympathetic to the GLBT community

That emily is sympathetic to the GLBT community doesn't affect my decision.

Damn, baby, you're SOOOOooooOO harsh!

 

[Sky Dancer]

If it makes you feel better, Emily is very sympathetic to the GLBT community

That emily is sympathetic to the GLBT community doesn't affect my decision.

Damn, baby, you're SOOOOooooOO harsh!

Not harsh at all. Prudent.

 

[Rogo]

This thread seems more aimed at patronizing both Sky Dancer and Godspeak in disguise as wanting to "help" them. I thought this was quite obvious, but nobody has mentioned it so far.

But I might as well ask this... Sky Dancer, isn't forgiveness a form of acceptance? I believe I've seen Buddhists teach about forgiveness all the time. Not to mention the Dhammapada says something about it somewhere.

 

[Marie888]

No way, I don't think Emily is trying to be patronizing at all. Though her and I don't agree on everything, I truly believe she was trying to help. Maybe it was unwanted, but Emily is being sincere, imo, anyhow. I don't get any "vibe" of Emily trying to superior in any way, nor do I think she thinks she is.

.

 

[Sky Dancer]

This thread seems more aimed at patronizing both Sky Dancer and Godspeak in disguise as wanting to "help" them. I thought this was quite obvious, but nobody has mentioned it so far.

But I might as well ask this... Sky Dancer, isn't forgiveness a form of acceptance? I believe I've seen Buddhists teach about forgiveness all the time. Not to mention the Dhammapada says something about it somewhere.

Hi-

Forgiveness is not a word in Tibetan. I study Tibetan Buddhism. Forgiveness is a christian concept, and you're right, whatever pure motivation emily may have to be 'helpful', her advice is unsolicited and patronizing.

Rather than 'forgiveness', I see the process of moving from a hurt place to a whole one, to be a matter of deep acceptance, that the unwanted hurtful experience happened, and it had an impact on one's very being.

That's completely different from being 'forgiving' which implies a judgment of 'wrongness'. There is a big difference between acknowledging a hurt, and accepting that it happened and bestowing 'forgiveness' on someone.

In my own case, what I work with all the time, is the hurt I feel over the loss of my father who really suffered because he was never accepted for being gay. I get upset with Christians like Scott Lively, who is on a world mission to make gay people miserable and who bragged that he had 'set off a nuclear bomb on homosexuals', by stirring things up in Uganda. The RCC and my family, was rejecting of my father, leaving him no spiritual resources, which contributed to his death. To honor my father, I come on too strong about gay civil rights and how Christians interfere in them. My bad.

Buddhists like Tara Brach, who wrote Radical Acceptance, and who work with people who are trauma survivors have the whole thing down in my opinion.

Of course, no one here is interested in moving into uncharted, non-christian territories with spirituality.

This is one reason, I'm quitting these boards. The other is I just spent a week in retreat asking the question, what activities are life giving and which ones are not.

Posting arguments to Christians about religious politics is not a life giving activity. No one is interested in my Buddhist ramblings here, it's not the place for me.

I hope this makes some of you happy to see the back of my head.

sky

sky

 

[syrenn]

No way, I don't think Emily is trying to be patronizing at all. Though her and I don't agree on everything, I truly believe she was trying to help. Maybe it was unwanted, but Emily is being sincere, imo, anyhow. I don't get any "vibe" of Emily trying to superior in any way, nor do I think she thinks she is.

.

Here is what i don't get maire, what is emily trying to say? She gives her 17 step program....however no reason of WHY she is doing it.

You say she is "trying to help" .... help what? Is she saying that sky and bradgod need to ASK for forgiveness ..and if so.. for whatr?

Or are they to forgive others..why?

 

[R.D.]

No way, I don't think Emily is trying to be patronizing at all. Though her and I don't agree on everything, I truly believe she was trying to help. Maybe it was unwanted, but Emily is being sincere, imo, anyhow. I don't get any "vibe" of Emily trying to superior in any way, nor do I think she thinks she is.

.

Here is what i don't get maire, what is emily trying to say? She gives her 17 step program....however no reason of WHY she is doing it.

You say she is "trying to help" .... help what? Is she saying that sky and bradgod need to ASK for forgiveness ..and if so.. for whatr?

Or are they to forgive others..why?

My take was she was offering help for them to forgive what they seem to harboring anger towards.

Sky certainly seems full of anger to me. As for the other dope, I stopped reading his posts after his hello thread.

I can think of another poster she could have addressed too

 

[emilynghiem]

So this is the 17 step program?

No, it's more like 3 steps.
1. Reading this list or comparing with any other (such as the AA 12 steps or any other guidelines people use)
2. Deciding what points you agree or don't agree with, and why.
3. And then figuring out what does makes sense or work for you
to achieve the same level of peace (where you don't carry unforgiven issues or conflicts from the past, to the point they limit or hinder either solutions or relations with others in the present or future in order to more effectively address and correct the problems)

P.S. I just looked up the reference that Sky gave for radical acceptance Tara Brach.
Irony of ironies, that sounds more like the process I went through intially.
Only after I hit a second stage then I used the Christian healing prayer to break through that part. With two of my other friends who take secular approaches to healing through the mind, they both went through two different stages. With them, one stages of first forgiving and letting go of the immediate grief on the external level; and another stage of going into the internal spiritual root cause connected to family relations or deeper. But my two friends did this in the opposite order, one worked physically first and then spiritually; the other had to address the spiritual issues first before he could take physical steps for his conditions.

With me, I had forgiven my personal relations first that got me stuck in a catch-22 with no way out. And then about 10 years later got stuck in a spiritual catch-22 and needed help from additional prayer to break out of that. Both came from past "karma" or whatever you call things you carry from the past, some beyond this generation, some from unknown sources but I knew that was not my real path I needed to be on and had to get these influences out of the way.

So whatever processes people use to break away from the negative patterns from the past, that is what I am interested in sharing. I first posted this because godspeaker had mentioned he was in a better place than he was before, but then he seemed to still project a negative bias so I wanted to know where that was coming from. And Sky has been completely open that she is working on her own anger, where that is coming from, and where it gets directed. So I wanted to see their take on the steps of forgiveness, where they are and what they agree or disagree with.

I don't even agree all these steps apply to all people, but it surely brings up discussion on what does work for people, what forgiveness is and what it is not. etc.

Even though I can't edit the subject line or the original posting, I hope it still invites Sky, Allie, anyone with an opinion on this to post what they see right or wrong, missing or misguided about this. In order to find what does work, not to discredit things that work for others but not for us. People have different approaches.

I find that all the more reason to share what we know, that can be the most helpful.

Note to Sky: My mother also does not understand forgiveness as seeming to be an active choice, like striving from our own effort. She understood it the way a monk explained to have "equal compassion" for all people no matter how they treat you. So that doesn't directly say to actively forgive, but it entails forgiveness in order to treat people with compassion and kindness regardless of how they treat us.

I mentioned before my atheist friend (who uses a combination of AA and Buddhism in recovery for himself and others) who just decides to clear the slate each day and not carry inventory on himself or others in order to be more effective in what he can do to help solve problems and make the most of life. He calls it cheap grace, or taking advantage of the abundance of free grace. He doesn't necessarily actively "pray for forgiveness" in order to do this. The forgiveness is inherent.

I think the radical acceptance works where the forgiveness is inherent.

The process would get blocked where someone is not able to forgive or let go of something, but part of the mind cannot accept something and puts up an emotional barrier to block or reject.

For my friend who suffered such extreme abuse, both physical/sexual and Christian religious abuse, the amount of pain and rage to forgive was beyond this person's control. And that is where the deliverance prayer helped to remove that burden first, so my friend could work through the rest. He uses his own version of Buddhist concepts to put the events in perspective where he can accept it with peace.

Especially with cases where there is "no way" and no justification to forgive, that is where forgiveness allows the most radical letting go so one can be at peace with it.

Whoever has discovered this gift, and has a way to teach it to someone else, even my atheist friend who just tells people to take advantage of free grace, I am thankful for and hope all people who need THAT way to understand it have access to it.

I love the fact there are different ways to teach this, because that means that many more different people can benefit.

Special thanks to Sky for the "radical acceptance" reference, which is ironically closer to my original experience (where I let go of the past and received a vision of the future I didn't know had been blocked). I thought I was just fixing my own personal relations, and the same process ends up opening the path to world peace when everyone goes through similar peacemaking in all our relations in life. Collectively that becomes everyone in the world. We are all connected, and going through this together. We just have different ways of expressing and sharing it.

The more different the ways are, the more important I think they are to share so that we don't miss out on any wisdom or insight that might help someone else. This is why I don't conflict as something to be suppressed or attacked, but should be openly addressed and explored to make the most of the opportunity to learn ways outside our current thinking, and to form a greater solution or understanding than we had before. so interesting, thanks to everyone for sharing here, especially where we disagree. Learn new things that way, thanks!

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Sky: Thank you for sharing your deeper insights and explanations of where and why you disagree. This is very helpful to people in general.

I hope you will consider staying for the very reasons you are tempted to leave.
It is because you do not think like others on here, that it is even more
necessary and beneficial to share.

If you only share with people who think like you already, then it is easier but the
rewards are not as valuable as facing challenges of diversity where more people
stand to gain even greater understanding than they had access to before!

I am sorry if I did or said anything to discourage you in any way.
I take it for granted you sounded very committed to your beliefs, so I thought you had a solid capacity to deal with this diversity.

If you need more assurance you are appreciated and heard, where you don't feel you are wasting your time, I will make an effort to be more supportive and verbally acknowledge instead of taking that for granted where you and I already agree.

I had been focusing on identifying where and why you and I disagree since those places were fewer and there is more significant concepts to explore in those areas.

If this seems too negative to you, I'm sorry, and I want to make it clear I believe the point is to reach agreement that includes all the points you are trying to make!

It is not an easy process, and I appreciate you putting up with the learning curve in the meantime, how to talk about these things where it is inclusive and constructive.

Sky, other people on here are learning, too, how to speak and share with someone from as diverse a background as you are coming from. I'm sorry so much has been at your emotional expense. I hope you understand that your pain and suffering is partially because you sympathize with the collective and shared pain of others who suffered religious abuse.

So when we share and correct and heal together, we are not just benefiting ourselves, but opening the door for other people to overcome these same problems and divisions.

If you need time out to reflect and meditate privately, or share with others instead of people here, I understand. The process is interconnected to everyone around you, so changes in one area will affect changes in others, as we grow together.

I just wouldn't want to see you give up and go because of negative things when that negativity is the opposite goal of what any of us really wants. If anyone here means to bash and bully, well the more reason to not let that tactic control how we respond.

If we are going to live by compassion and charity, to show that that is the more compelling force, that speaks to me of continuing to give and share, not to let negativity disrupt us.

Sorry for anything I contributed to any bad feelings between us or others here.
I hope you will continue to post and share in a way that does not let any discouragement in.

You are so honest in your posts, saying exactly how you feel and think, I guess I took it for granted that you were okay continuing to do that. You didn't seem discouraged to me, but determined to follow this path and not have to defend or apologize for it.

Sorry I have not been more encouraging or supportive, but I will try to be more careful in the future.

If it's okay, I would like to reply to some of your points below.

Again I already assume that you have your buddha-nature inherent in you, and that the purpose of the path is to open up and let that bloom to fullness.

So all these things that are exchanged are to get to that truth that is already inside you, where that comes out and is expressed freely. It is not meant to be anything negative.

You already have the truth written on your conscience, but it is just blocked over with the pains and conditioned thoughts from the past, and that is where forgiveness lets all that emotional burden go that otherwise gets in the way of a free mind.

You don't deserve to carry this burden of religious abuse on behalf of other people.

You have your ways of dealing with it, and I believe everyone here can help with that at the same time we heal of our own burdens and biases we carry. We are connected.

Rather than 'forgiveness', I see the process of moving from a hurt place to a whole one, to be a matter of deep acceptance, that the unwanted hurtful experience happened, and it had an impact on one's very being.

Yes, that is the goal. But as long as the emotions block that process, that is why forgiveness of the pain and abuse caused helps to remove that from the equation first.

That's completely different from being 'forgiving' which implies a judgment of 'wrongness'. There is a big difference between acknowledging a hurt, and accepting that it happened and bestowing 'forgiveness' on someone.

Not necessarily assessing blame, and not necessarily toward a person.

We can forgive "in general" that abuse happens, that humans are not perfect, and in general will take something meant for good and hurt someone with it. And forgive that it could have and does happen to many people, but the fact that it happens to us or to you, being able to forgive that you were hurt by this abuse whatever it came from.

Really letting go of the pain and anger, so that doesn't get in the way of the steps
of acceptance and addressing corrections and responsibility for practical changes.

In my own case, what I work with all the time, is the hurt I feel over the loss of my father who really suffered because he was never accepted for being gay. I get upset with Christians like Scott Lively, who is on a world mission to make gay people miserable and who bragged that he had 'set off a nuclear bomb on homosexuals', by stirring things up in Uganda. The RCC and my family, was rejecting of my father, leaving him no spiritual resources, which contributed to his death. To honor my father, I come on too strong about gay civil rights and how Christians interfere in them. My bad.

Hey Sky, here we have a lot in common that I would rather focus on, both for practical positive steps we can do, and for our own healing. I haven't been through all the pain you have, but what I have survived gave me skills to help others. I am thinking these days of contacting the parents of that little boy, only 13 years old, who killed himself after being bullied for being Buddhist and being gay. The school blames the parents, who blame the bullying and the school for not stopping it. But I see multiple issues going on, both the Buddhist Christian discrimination thing (he even was trying to learn or convert to Christianity to try to fit in, can you imagine, bless his heart, he tried his best) And the whole homosexuality thing, don't even get me started on that. The college I went to put together a forum on the Bible and Homosexuality, between Christian and Pride groups on campus, and one of the speakers was a gay Christian theology grad student who talked of her experience with "acceptance" of how God made her. And she reached a lot of Christians who had no previous understanding how anyone could be born that way and not from sickness or abuse. I have other friends who have prayed and healed people of the "unnatural type" of homosexual or even heterosexual behavior that is caused by abuse. So there are both kinds of natural or unnatural attractions or even addictions and you can't say all cases are one way or the other. I would like to see this issue addressed to stop all the harassment and political debates over something that is spiritual.

Sky I totally would agree with you on civil and constitutional approaches to this!

I planned to contact the family and propose some club for students that teaches conflict resolution, either just based on civil laws and constitutional principles and ethics, or it can specialize in overcoming religious, political, or racial conflicts if the students wish to focus on that. I believe that kind of training and assistance with mediation can prevent any bullying not only among students but people who abuse religion or politics to bully!

Again I'm sorry for anything that contributed to any bullying here.
Can you please forgive that without assessing blame or trying to forgive one person.
But just forgive in general the pain and suffering this causes,
so it doesn't get in the way of seeking solutions. Together.

Buddhists like Tara Brach, who wrote Radical Acceptance, and who work with people who are trauma survivors have the whole thing down in my opinion.

This sounds very interesting, sort of like "forgiving the whole thing" instead of trying to assess or take inventory of who contributed what to cause a chain of events.

Of course, no one here is interested in moving into uncharted, non-christian territories with spirituality.

I don't believe that is outside or against Christianity.

If it has anything to do with forgiveness, which it sounds like to me,
then it has everything to do with salvation or enlightenment/liberation of humanity, whatever you call that, Sky.

This is one reason, I'm quitting these boards. The other is I just spent a week in retreat asking the question, what activities are life giving and which ones are not.

Posting arguments to Christians about religious politics is not a life giving activity. No one is interested in my Buddhist ramblings here, it's not the place for me.

I hope this makes some of you happy to see the back of my head.

Sky

I don't want to see bullying win over compassionate HONEST open dialogue and "radical acceptance" of whatever people say or their intent behind it.

Thank you for Sharing honestly Sky.

I hope you will post excerpts, links, or your own words or experience on radical acceptance. I think that would help a lot of people on here who don't get
forgiveness, so maybe teaching it that way is more effective there!

If you must leave, I trust you are needed elsewhere.

I will PM you to see if you would like to collaborate on a Buddhist outreach or even a garden for the students to memorialize their classmate, I know one student who wanted to set one up. I thought of having four trees planted in each corner, to stand for knowledge truth wisdom peaceful understanding, the fig or ficus tree, the apple tree, the Bodhi tree, and the olive tree. The same way there are four noble Truths in Buddhism, there are four spiritual laws taught in Christianity, so I would offer both as themes since this young boy was trying to study and follow both.

He gave up and killed himself in despair or depression, though he was a very happy easygoing and loving soul, loved and missed by many, had a great sense of humor.

I don't want to keep sending that message that we should give up.
We should offer a different way if one thing or another doesn't work.
It's one thing to give up the old ways, to open up to a new angle,
but not to the point you kill off relationships or literally kill yourself.

So sad, I just wish I knew that young boy, and I keep thinking we could have found a way to laugh at how stupid the problems were and not carry them like he did, he was so sensitive and did not have enough support to deal with that, at such a young age.

Sky it makes sense to me that if people have such different ways of approaching "forgiveness" or alternatives to this, then all these ways are even more necessary to offer so all situations are covered!

I would like to propose that whatever this "radical acceptance" is, maybe that would
help set up some useful outreach in this boy's memory; whatever his parents and fellow students and friends feel will help stop the bullying. I think civil rights, civics and conflict resolution training would help, setting up a program where the students agree to follow certain policies on redressing grievances and violations of school conduct policies, and correct issues themselves!

I understand the concept of giving up, as Buddha did, before finding the better way.
Sky, can we find the better way? Can you share your insights on what you think is better, and together we could piece together how we can support each other along the way?

Thanks Sky
Sorry for all these troubles and hassles
I take it for granted you already have the truth inside you
and was just trying to trigger it to come out
Didn't mean to offend you in the process
I just trusted you would share what you know in return
since you have always posted exactly what you think
Sorry that was not clear!
Yours truly,
Love, Emily

 

[Rogo]

This thread seems more aimed at patronizing both Sky Dancer and Godspeak in disguise as wanting to "help" them. I thought this was quite obvious, but nobody has mentioned it so far.

But I might as well ask this... Sky Dancer, isn't forgiveness a form of acceptance? I believe I've seen Buddhists teach about forgiveness all the time. Not to mention the Dhammapada says something about it somewhere.

Hi-

Forgiveness is not a word in Tibetan. I study Tibetan Buddhism. Forgiveness is a christian concept, and you're right, whatever pure motivation emily may have to be 'helpful', her advice is unsolicited and patronizing.

Rather than 'forgiveness', I see the process of moving from a hurt place to a whole one, to be a matter of deep acceptance, that the unwanted hurtful experience happened, and it had an impact on one's very being.

That's completely different from being 'forgiving' which implies a judgment of 'wrongness'. There is a big difference between acknowledging a hurt, and accepting that it happened and bestowing 'forgiveness' on someone.

In my own case, what I work with all the time, is the hurt I feel over the loss of my father who really suffered because he was never accepted for being gay. I get upset with Christians like Scott Lively, who is on a world mission to make gay people miserable and who bragged that he had 'set off a nuclear bomb on homosexuals', by stirring things up in Uganda. The RCC and my family, was rejecting of my father, leaving him no spiritual resources, which contributed to his death. To honor my father, I come on too strong about gay civil rights and how Christians interfere in them. My bad.

Buddhists like Tara Brach, who wrote Radical Acceptance, and who work with people who are trauma survivors have the whole thing down in my opinion.

Of course, no one here is interested in moving into uncharted, non-christian territories with spirituality.

This is one reason, I'm quitting these boards. The other is I just spent a week in retreat asking the question, what activities are life giving and which ones are not.

Posting arguments to Christians about religious politics is not a life giving activity. No one is interested in my Buddhist ramblings here, it's not the place for me.

I hope this makes some of you happy to see the back of my head.

sky

sky

I'm certainly interested in what you have to say. I am somewhat of a Theravada Buddhist, and I have recently been trying to expand my view on the religion (although, I look at it more as a philosophy). Instead of arguing with Christians, why not help those who wish to explore more into the realm of Buddhism (i.e. start a thread solely dedicated to it and just remain there, etc).

 

[AVG-JOE]

That emily is sympathetic to the GLBT community doesn't affect my decision.

Damn, baby, you're SOOOOooooOO harsh!

Not harsh at all. Prudent.

 

[AVG-JOE]

This thread seems more aimed at patronizing both Sky Dancer and Godspeak in disguise as wanting to "help" them. I thought this was quite obvious, but nobody has mentioned it so far.

But I might as well ask this... Sky Dancer, isn't forgiveness a form of acceptance? I believe I've seen Buddhists teach about forgiveness all the time. Not to mention the Dhammapada says something about it somewhere.

Hi-

Forgiveness is not a word in Tibetan. I study Tibetan Buddhism. Forgiveness is a christian concept, and you're right, whatever pure motivation emily may have to be 'helpful', her advice is unsolicited and patronizing.

Rather than 'forgiveness', I see the process of moving from a hurt place to a whole one, to be a matter of deep acceptance, that the unwanted hurtful experience happened, and it had an impact on one's very being.

That's completely different from being 'forgiving' which implies a judgment of 'wrongness'. There is a big difference between acknowledging a hurt, and accepting that it happened and bestowing 'forgiveness' on someone.

In my own case, what I work with all the time, is the hurt I feel over the loss of my father who really suffered because he was never accepted for being gay. I get upset with Christians like Scott Lively, who is on a world mission to make gay people miserable and who bragged that he had 'set off a nuclear bomb on homosexuals', by stirring things up in Uganda. The RCC and my family, was rejecting of my father, leaving him no spiritual resources, which contributed to his death. To honor my father, I come on too strong about gay civil rights and how Christians interfere in them. My bad.

Buddhists like Tara Brach, who wrote Radical Acceptance, and who work with people who are trauma survivors have the whole thing down in my opinion.

Of course, no one here is interested in moving into uncharted, non-christian territories with spirituality.

This is one reason, I'm quitting these boards. The other is I just spent a week in retreat asking the question, what activities are life giving and which ones are not.

Posting arguments to Christians about religious politics is not a life giving activity. No one is interested in my Buddhist ramblings here, it's not the place for me.

I hope this makes some of you happy to see the back of my head.

sky

Wherever you go, whatever you do, don't loose your voice or ever think it's bad to bring up injustice - especially in an open forum.

 

[Sky Dancer]

This thread seems more aimed at patronizing both Sky Dancer and Godspeak in disguise as wanting to "help" them. I thought this was quite obvious, but nobody has mentioned it so far.

But I might as well ask this... Sky Dancer, isn't forgiveness a form of acceptance? I believe I've seen Buddhists teach about forgiveness all the time. Not to mention the Dhammapada says something about it somewhere.

Hi-

Forgiveness is not a word in Tibetan. I study Tibetan Buddhism. Forgiveness is a christian concept, and you're right, whatever pure motivation emily may have to be 'helpful', her advice is unsolicited and patronizing.

Rather than 'forgiveness', I see the process of moving from a hurt place to a whole one, to be a matter of deep acceptance, that the unwanted hurtful experience happened, and it had an impact on one's very being.

That's completely different from being 'forgiving' which implies a judgment of 'wrongness'. There is a big difference between acknowledging a hurt, and accepting that it happened and bestowing 'forgiveness' on someone.

In my own case, what I work with all the time, is the hurt I feel over the loss of my father who really suffered because he was never accepted for being gay. I get upset with Christians like Scott Lively, who is on a world mission to make gay people miserable and who bragged that he had 'set off a nuclear bomb on homosexuals', by stirring things up in Uganda. The RCC and my family, was rejecting of my father, leaving him no spiritual resources, which contributed to his death. To honor my father, I come on too strong about gay civil rights and how Christians interfere in them. My bad.

Buddhists like Tara Brach, who wrote Radical Acceptance, and who work with people who are trauma survivors have the whole thing down in my opinion.

Of course, no one here is interested in moving into uncharted, non-christian territories with spirituality.

This is one reason, I'm quitting these boards. The other is I just spent a week in retreat asking the question, what activities are life giving and which ones are not.

Posting arguments to Christians about religious politics is not a life giving activity. No one is interested in my Buddhist ramblings here, it's not the place for me.

I hope this makes some of you happy to see the back of my head.

sky

sky

I'm certainly interested in what you have to say. I am somewhat of a Theravada Buddhist, and I have recently been trying to expand my view on the religion (although, I look at it more as a philosophy). Instead of arguing with Christians, why not help those who wish to explore more into the realm of Buddhism (i.e. start a thread solely dedicated to it and just remain there, etc).

Hi Rogo--

You're a breath of fresh air. I would be happy to talk to you about your exploration of Buddhism. Why don't you start a thread just for those interested in Buddhism and I will be happy to post along with you for support.

Which teachers in the Theravadin tradition have you studied with? I've met and done retreat with Jack Kornfield, Joseph Goldstein, Jamie Baraz, Alan Clements, Jacqueline Schwartz Mandel and Ruth Denison. Any of those familiar to you?

sky