For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[martybegan]

With the Court we have now (or god forbid the one we get if Hillary wins?)

Who knows? My expectations of a Court that protects everyone's rights, not just special people's rights are at an all time low.

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well, Bigoted bakers has a $135,000 fine that says otherwise.

enforced by a bigoted bureaucrat. It's going to be appealed, and hopefully will be a case that shows that PA Laws have to take Religious accommodation into account.

I really would like to see this in front of SCOTUS. I'm not at all sure which way it would go.

With the Court we have now (or god forbid the one we get if Hillary wins?)

Who knows? My expectations of a Court that protects everyone's rights, not just special people's rights are at an all time low.

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

Once the government decides it can force people to act over something this trivial, it will continue to do so, and sooner or later for YOU to do something you find objectionable.

At that point, the only thing I will say, is "serves you right"

Yes, it's always 'trivial' when you're at the clean end of the stick, isn't it?

 

[martybegan]

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

I know that. These laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory business practices. ALL the people, even the Christians themselves. Only, some of them are too far gone to realize this.

"protecting" nothing but hurt feelings in this case, not actual harm.

You fainting flowers seem to be all big and tough when government does your dirty work, but being told "i'm sorry, we don't provide service X, please go to someone else" ZOMG, the vapors!!!!!

Sorry, that's the law. If you open a public accommodation business, be prepared to serve the public, that includes blacks, gays, women, Muslims and other people you might not like.

Jew's can't go into parks: sorry that's the law
Blacks have to use separate water fountains: sorry, that's the law
Buggery is illegal, sorry that's the law.

All of these laws were wrong at one time, so your appeal to authority is just that, appeal to the law without wanting to discuss the purpose and rightness of the law.

 

[ChrisL]

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

Look, you are not special because of your religious beliefs. You are allowed to practice your religious beliefs. However, when your religious beliefs clash with the laws of the state regarding business matters, you are breaking the law. The government doesn't recognize this as "practicing your religion."

 

[PratchettFan]

Christians will just have to develop an underground network of services only available to Christians. The old Soviet Union had many such underground networks.

The provider will have an array of services publicly available, the public can make their choices from those.

That is based upon the assumption that the percentage of Christians who have any problem with this is high. It isn't. You can count the number of these cases without taking off one glove, let alone a shoe. Except in terms of the case law potential and the publicity for politicians, this is a non-issue.

 

[ChrisL]

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

I know that. These laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory business practices. ALL the people, even the Christians themselves. Only, some of them are too far gone to realize this.

"protecting" nothing but hurt feelings in this case, not actual harm.

You fainting flowers seem to be all big and tough when government does your dirty work, but being told "i'm sorry, we don't provide service X, please go to someone else" ZOMG, the vapors!!!!!

Sorry, that's the law. If you open a public accommodation business, be prepared to serve the public, that includes blacks, gays, women, Muslims and other people you might not like.

Jew's can't go into parks: sorry that's the law
Blacks have to use separate water fountains: sorry, that's the law
Buggery is illegal, sorry that's the law.

All of these laws were wrong at one time, so your appeal to authority is just that, appeal to the law without wanting to discuss the purpose and rightness of the law.

Seriously, you are laughable. These anti-discrimination laws were put into place BECAUSE of the things you mention above.

 

[bodecea]

No, it isn't. That would be completely counter to the very concept of a free society.

How come whenever you wingnuts talk about 'freedom", it usually means the ability to abuse others?

Why is it that when someone doesn't have an argument to make they always revert to pejoratives?

I know....I see that a lot from certain posters.

 

[martybegan]

enforced by a bigoted bureaucrat. It's going to be appealed, and hopefully will be a case that shows that PA Laws have to take Religious accommodation into account.

I really would like to see this in front of SCOTUS. I'm not at all sure which way it would go.

With the Court we have now (or god forbid the one we get if Hillary wins?)

Who knows? My expectations of a Court that protects everyone's rights, not just special people's rights are at an all time low.

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

Once the government decides it can force people to act over something this trivial, it will continue to do so, and sooner or later for YOU to do something you find objectionable.

At that point, the only thing I will say, is "serves you right"

Yes, it's always 'trivial' when you're at the clean end of the stick, isn't it?

You really consider a gay couple having to spend a small amount of time finding another baker a major event worthy of government malice in the amount of $135,000.00?????

It seems you like the pointy end of the stick only when its about to poke people you disagree with, again, that's not supporting freedom.

 

[ChrisL]

Christians will just have to develop an underground network of services only available to Christians. The old Soviet Union had many such underground networks.

The provider will have an array of services publicly available, the public can make their choices from those.

That is based upon the assumption that the percentage of Christians who have any problem with this is high. It isn't. You can count the number of these cases without taking off one glove, let alone a shoe. Except in terms of the case law potential and the publicity for politicians, this is a non-issue.

I don't even know why you would acknowledge that post. That poster is obviously nuttier than squirrel poop.

 

[Jroc]

Not your call to make, and not government's call to make unless there is harm, and thus a compelling government interest.

Getting rid of homophobia is a compelling government interest.

Done.

How about Jew phobia?

 

[martybegan]

I don't claim the Bible as a source of anything. I could not care less what the Bible says. We are discussing what you are saying, and what you are saying is pure bigotry. Why is your bigotry better than anyone else's bigotry?

When two claimed rights collide, one has to win one has to lose. There is no win win.

In one case the losing side has hurt feelings and has to spend an hour or so finding another baker. In the other the losing side either has to go against their morals, or pay a fine or go out of business.

For a person with any sort of spine, only one side loses here, and it's not the side with the hurt feelings.

Exactly. If your morals prevent you from following the law, then don't go into business. You are FREE to open a business and operate it in accordance with the law. Don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you when you blatantly break the law.

That isn't freedom, and it's not a choice.

But of course, we are supposed to feel sorry for illegal immigrants who break the law, because of "the children".

It is a choice. If you cannot comply with the law, then don't open a business. The state has every right to set rules and regulations with regard to how businesses operate in their district.

Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with this topic. Lol. And here you expect people to feel sorry for you because you can't be an open bigot when doing business? Laughable.

It's about "following the law" as your line of logic has dictated. The law is the law.

if you can't come here legally, don't come. So I guess you support massive deportations regardless of how long people were here, or how many kids born here they have, the law is the law.

 

[ChrisL]

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

Also, a bakery is just a regular business. It is not recognized as a "religious institution." Therefore, you are required to follow the laws and you are not exempt.

 

[ChrisL]

When two claimed rights collide, one has to win one has to lose. There is no win win.

In one case the losing side has hurt feelings and has to spend an hour or so finding another baker. In the other the losing side either has to go against their morals, or pay a fine or go out of business.

For a person with any sort of spine, only one side loses here, and it's not the side with the hurt feelings.

Exactly. If your morals prevent you from following the law, then don't go into business. You are FREE to open a business and operate it in accordance with the law. Don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you when you blatantly break the law.

That isn't freedom, and it's not a choice.

But of course, we are supposed to feel sorry for illegal immigrants who break the law, because of "the children".

It is a choice. If you cannot comply with the law, then don't open a business. The state has every right to set rules and regulations with regard to how businesses operate in their district.

Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with this topic. Lol. And here you expect people to feel sorry for you because you can't be an open bigot when doing business? Laughable.

It's about "following the law" as your line of logic has dictated. The law is the law.

if you can't come here legally, don't come. So I guess you support massive deportations regardless of how long people were here, or how many kids born here they have, the law is the law.

Again, if you want to talk about immigration, open a thread about it. This thread is not about immigration. It is about discrimination.

 

[martybegan]

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

I know that. These laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory business practices. ALL the people, even the Christians themselves. Only, some of them are too far gone to realize this.

"protecting" nothing but hurt feelings in this case, not actual harm.

You fainting flowers seem to be all big and tough when government does your dirty work, but being told "i'm sorry, we don't provide service X, please go to someone else" ZOMG, the vapors!!!!!

Sorry, that's the law. If you open a public accommodation business, be prepared to serve the public, that includes blacks, gays, women, Muslims and other people you might not like.

"Sorry that's the law" is a tired response when the discussion is about the veracity of the law, something you don't seem to be getting.

 

[PratchettFan]

The Court can protect everyone's rights but only if the Court is allowed to decide what is or isn't a right.

When the claim of a right to discriminate goes up against a claim of a right not to be discriminated against,

the decision has to be based on having decided which right is the legitimate right.

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

No, they are not. They are being punished for violating a law. You have already agreed that such laws are valid, you just don't think it should go as far as this particular one goes. Unless the courts indicate that such laws violate the Constitution, then people violate them at their own peril. They are not being singled out because of their beliefs, they are being treated exactly as everyone else is being treated.

 

[martybegan]

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

Also, a bakery is just a regular business. It is not recognized as a "religious institution." Therefore, you are required to follow the laws and you are not exempt.

Religious freedom is not limited to religious institutions.

 

[ChrisL]

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

I know that. These laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory business practices. ALL the people, even the Christians themselves. Only, some of them are too far gone to realize this.

"protecting" nothing but hurt feelings in this case, not actual harm.

You fainting flowers seem to be all big and tough when government does your dirty work, but being told "i'm sorry, we don't provide service X, please go to someone else" ZOMG, the vapors!!!!!

Sorry, that's the law. If you open a public accommodation business, be prepared to serve the public, that includes blacks, gays, women, Muslims and other people you might not like.

"Sorry that's the law" is a tired response when the discussion is about the veracity of the law, something you don't seem to be getting.

No, you don't get it. Lol. You've made it quite clear that you don't understand rights or laws.

 

[ChrisL]

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

Also, a bakery is just a regular business. It is not recognized as a "religious institution." Therefore, you are required to follow the laws and you are not exempt.

Religious freedom is not limited to religious institutions.

You do not have "religious freedom" to discriminate against customers when you open a business unless you are a "religious institution." Get it? In the eyes of the law, none of your rights are violated. You are being treated exactly as any other business operating under their jurisdiction.

 

[ChrisL]

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

Also, a bakery is just a regular business. It is not recognized as a "religious institution." Therefore, you are required to follow the laws and you are not exempt.

Religious freedom is not limited to religious institutions.

Good geebus, one has to wonder how much longer this whining is going to continue.

 

[martybegan]

I think it is quite obvious that these people seem to think these laws were designed to "get them." In the mental health field, they have a tem for this. It is called a "persecution complex."

Most of our laws are designed to 'get' people who do certain things.

You misunderstand my comment. The Christian conservatives think these laws are designed to single them out and punish them for their religious beliefs.

And they are wrong.

So the bakers are not being punished for their religious beliefs, or more accurately, exercising said religious beliefs?

No, they are not. They are being punished for violating a law. You have already agreed that such laws are valid, you just don't think it should go as far as this particular one goes. Unless the courts indicate that such laws violate the Constitution, then people violate them at their own peril. They are not being singled out because of their beliefs, they are being treated exactly as everyone else is being treated.

They are violating the law due to their religious beliefs, and thus being punished for them. You can't separate the two of them. And being singled out or not is meaningless. The law is being used to punish their religious beliefs.