Fear And Frustration Over EPA Move To Kill Chemical-Disaster Protections

[bripat9643]

The local folks are the ones in favor of this regulation. The chemical industries are not.

Why do you suppose that is? And why should the chemical industry be allowed to endanger first responders? They'll claim 'proprietary information' thus making a fire fighter's job even more dangerous.

The chemical industry make "Safety First" an intracompany slogan. It's dangerous to see the obverse of that slogan.

Why do you assume localities and States are incapable of doing this? Well other than being a stateist that is.


.

For the same reason we agreed it's a bad idea for states to issue their own scrip in lieu of a national currency. Because it works.

Some problems are national problems and some problems are local problems. Some localities are too cash strapped to mount an effective response. Consider the fact; municipalities where dangerous marierial is handled are municipalities with crappy tax bases because nobody wants to live near those facilities. Fully funding the highly specialized response team is over the fiscal top for many chemical towns.

A national standard would ensure consistent training and licensing protocol. There is no reason a worker, citizen and first responder should be at greater and unnecessary danger because they lived in Alabama than Massachusetts. Licenses would be granted reciprocity across all state lines (only possible with a national standard). In the case of another Houston catastrophe, first responders could react from the whole nation rather than keeping the local first responders so busy and in the blind fighting their own chemical fire. What with the hurricane and all, it wasn't as if the local first responders weren't busy to begin with.

With national consistency comes lowering of insurance costs. Every policy writer could be assured of every safety measure. When companies own plants in West Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California, banking on consistent quality control can save millions.

A national standards regulation helps trade, both ways. When our standards are recognized as the Gold Standard, our products are recognized and quality products responsibly manufactured. That makes our market the world leader. Nations producing goods while not up to our standards could be rejected at the ports. Chinese roys with lead paint for example.

So, is that non-statist enough for you?

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

No.

 

[OKTexas]

The local folks are the ones in favor of this regulation. The chemical industries are not.

Why do you suppose that is? And why should the chemical industry be allowed to endanger first responders? They'll claim 'proprietary information' thus making a fire fighter's job even more dangerous.

The chemical industry make "Safety First" an intracompany slogan. It's dangerous to see the obverse of that slogan.

Why do you assume localities and States are incapable of doing this? Well other than being a stateist that is.


.

For the same reason we agreed it's a bad idea for states to issue their own scrip in lieu of a national currency. Because it works.

Some problems are national problems and some problems are local problems. Some localities are too cash strapped to mount an effective response. Consider the fact; municipalities where dangerous marierial is handled are municipalities with crappy tax bases because nobody wants to live near those facilities. Fully funding the highly specialized response team is over the fiscal top for many chemical towns.

A national standard would ensure consistent training and licensing protocol. There is no reason a worker, citizen and first responder should be at greater and unnecessary danger because they lived in Alabama than Massachusetts. Licenses would be granted reciprocity across all state lines (only possible with a national standard). In the case of another Houston catastrophe, first responders could react from the whole nation rather than keeping the local first responders so busy and in the blind fighting their own chemical fire. What with the hurricane and all, it wasn't as if the local first responders weren't busy to begin with.

With national consistency comes lowering of insurance costs. Every policy writer could be assured of every safety measure. When companies own plants in West Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California, banking on consistent quality control can save millions.

A national standards regulation helps trade, both ways. When our standards are recognized as the Gold Standard, our products are recognized and quality products responsibly manufactured. That makes our market the world leader. Nations producing goods while not up to our standards could be rejected at the ports. Chinese roys with lead paint for example.

So, is that non-statist enough for you?

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

 

[Nosmo King]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Easy! Early 2011. First responders arrived at a steel processing mill just twenty five miles down river from me. The firefighters were not told about a pallet of drums containing manganese. When they hit the fire with water, it exploded the manganese and killed three.

Some folks think there's never a sound reason for regulations. These are the same folks who lose health, life or property after a disaster shouting "There oughta be a law!"

Manganese isn't a toxic chemical, dumbass. It wouldn't have even been covered by this regulation. If the fire fighters had simply contacted the plant management, they would have been told about the manganese.

The accident was the first responder's fault? They came to that facility to save lives and property. Shouldn't the facility owner bear some responsibility to keep those first responders alive?

 

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Easy! Early 2011. First responders arrived at a steel processing mill just twenty five miles down river from me. The firefighters were not told about a pallet of drums containing manganese. When they hit the fire with water, it exploded the manganese and killed three.

Some folks think there's never a sound reason for regulations. These are the same folks who lose health, life or property after a disaster shouting "There oughta be a law!"

Manganese isn't a toxic chemical, dumbass. It wouldn't have even been covered by this regulation. If the fire fighters had simply contacted the plant management, they would have been told about the manganese.

The accident was the first responder's fault? They came to that facility to save lives and property. Shouldn't the facility owner bear some responsibility to keep those first responders alive?

Yeah, it was their fault. Responders have a responsibility to be smart about what they do. Showering water everywhere the minute they show up at an industrial fire is not smart. Any firefighter should know what they are spraying water on before the turn on the hoses.

 

[Nosmo King]

Why do you suppose that is? And why should the chemical industry be allowed to endanger first responders? They'll claim 'proprietary information' thus making a fire fighter's job even more dangerous.

The chemical industry make "Safety First" an intracompany slogan. It's dangerous to see the obverse of that slogan.

Why do you assume localities and States are incapable of doing this? Well other than being a stateist that is.


.

For the same reason we agreed it's a bad idea for states to issue their own scrip in lieu of a national currency. Because it works.

Some problems are national problems and some problems are local problems. Some localities are too cash strapped to mount an effective response. Consider the fact; municipalities where dangerous marierial is handled are municipalities with crappy tax bases because nobody wants to live near those facilities. Fully funding the highly specialized response team is over the fiscal top for many chemical towns.

A national standard would ensure consistent training and licensing protocol. There is no reason a worker, citizen and first responder should be at greater and unnecessary danger because they lived in Alabama than Massachusetts. Licenses would be granted reciprocity across all state lines (only possible with a national standard). In the case of another Houston catastrophe, first responders could react from the whole nation rather than keeping the local first responders so busy and in the blind fighting their own chemical fire. What with the hurricane and all, it wasn't as if the local first responders weren't busy to begin with.

With national consistency comes lowering of insurance costs. Every policy writer could be assured of every safety measure. When companies own plants in West Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California, banking on consistent quality control can save millions.

A national standards regulation helps trade, both ways. When our standards are recognized as the Gold Standard, our products are recognized and quality products responsibly manufactured. That makes our market the world leader. Nations producing goods while not up to our standards could be rejected at the ports. Chinese roys with lead paint for example.

So, is that non-statist enough for you?

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

 

[OKTexas]

Why do you assume localities and States are incapable of doing this? Well other than being a stateist that is.


.

For the same reason we agreed it's a bad idea for states to issue their own scrip in lieu of a national currency. Because it works.

Some problems are national problems and some problems are local problems. Some localities are too cash strapped to mount an effective response. Consider the fact; municipalities where dangerous marierial is handled are municipalities with crappy tax bases because nobody wants to live near those facilities. Fully funding the highly specialized response team is over the fiscal top for many chemical towns.

A national standard would ensure consistent training and licensing protocol. There is no reason a worker, citizen and first responder should be at greater and unnecessary danger because they lived in Alabama than Massachusetts. Licenses would be granted reciprocity across all state lines (only possible with a national standard). In the case of another Houston catastrophe, first responders could react from the whole nation rather than keeping the local first responders so busy and in the blind fighting their own chemical fire. What with the hurricane and all, it wasn't as if the local first responders weren't busy to begin with.

With national consistency comes lowering of insurance costs. Every policy writer could be assured of every safety measure. When companies own plants in West Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California, banking on consistent quality control can save millions.

A national standards regulation helps trade, both ways. When our standards are recognized as the Gold Standard, our products are recognized and quality products responsibly manufactured. That makes our market the world leader. Nations producing goods while not up to our standards could be rejected at the ports. Chinese roys with lead paint for example.

So, is that non-statist enough for you?

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

.

 

[Nosmo King]

For the same reason we agreed it's a bad idea for states to issue their own scrip in lieu of a national currency. Because it works.

Some problems are national problems and some problems are local problems. Some localities are too cash strapped to mount an effective response. Consider the fact; municipalities where dangerous marierial is handled are municipalities with crappy tax bases because nobody wants to live near those facilities. Fully funding the highly specialized response team is over the fiscal top for many chemical towns.

A national standard would ensure consistent training and licensing protocol. There is no reason a worker, citizen and first responder should be at greater and unnecessary danger because they lived in Alabama than Massachusetts. Licenses would be granted reciprocity across all state lines (only possible with a national standard). In the case of another Houston catastrophe, first responders could react from the whole nation rather than keeping the local first responders so busy and in the blind fighting their own chemical fire. What with the hurricane and all, it wasn't as if the local first responders weren't busy to begin with.

With national consistency comes lowering of insurance costs. Every policy writer could be assured of every safety measure. When companies own plants in West Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California, banking on consistent quality control can save millions.

A national standards regulation helps trade, both ways. When our standards are recognized as the Gold Standard, our products are recognized and quality products responsibly manufactured. That makes our market the world leader. Nations producing goods while not up to our standards could be rejected at the ports. Chinese roys with lead paint for example.

So, is that non-statist enough for you?

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

.

Two errors in your judgment.

First, the Federalist Papers are not the law of the land. The founding fathers were not infallible. They built in the option of changing and amending the constitution at the will of the people. The Federalist Papers amounts to commentary, but not precedent.

And James Madison knew nothing about how this nation would eventually grow and drive the economy, security and viability of the world. There were no corporations in Madison's time. Nothing more hazardous than a back yard forge or a water driven saw mill.

If corporations are people too, they can certainly bear standards that not only protect their own property and employees, but their neighbors and the health and safety of those who show up to help that corporation's disaster.

 

[OKTexas]

Then this set of regulations would be worthless to those cash strapped localities anyways, wouldn't they?


.

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

.

Two errors in your judgment.

First, the Federalist Papers are not the law of the land. The founding fathers were not infallible. They built in the option of changing and amending the constitution at the will of the people. The Federalist Papers amounts to commentary, but not precedent.

And James Madison knew nothing about how this nation would eventually grow and drive the economy, security and viability of the world. There were no corporations in Madison's time. Nothing more hazardous than a back yard forge or a water driven saw mill.

If corporations are people too, they can certainly bear standards that not only protect their own property and employees, but their neighbors and the health and safety of those who show up to help that corporation's disaster.

You have yet to come up with a viable argument why the States and localities are incapable of instituting regulations they feel are necessary in this regard.


.

 

[Nosmo King]

Should the federal government issue grants to police forces?

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

.

Two errors in your judgment.

First, the Federalist Papers are not the law of the land. The founding fathers were not infallible. They built in the option of changing and amending the constitution at the will of the people. The Federalist Papers amounts to commentary, but not precedent.

And James Madison knew nothing about how this nation would eventually grow and drive the economy, security and viability of the world. There were no corporations in Madison's time. Nothing more hazardous than a back yard forge or a water driven saw mill.

If corporations are people too, they can certainly bear standards that not only protect their own property and employees, but their neighbors and the health and safety of those who show up to help that corporation's disaster.

You have yet to come up with a viable argument why the States and localities are incapable of instituting regulations they feel are necessary in this regard.


.

For the reasons I worked with for twenty years.

I am an Environmental engineer by training. I'm retired now.

Back in my Environmental days, I would have projects at U.S. Navy bases up and down the east coast. From Quincy, MA to Hampton Roads, VA. I can tell you that the service-wide standards in the Navy made my projects go much smoother. The bidding process for local contractors went especially smoothly. Their employees, methods and materials were consistent all along the coast.

I also had private sector clients in many of the same states. Every facility had to be considered for contractor and employee licensing requirements, hazardous waste disposal facilities, even PELs (Personal Exposure Limits). All that added to the cost and, ultimately, the assurance of quality workmanship when dealing with hazardous materials.

 

[BluesLegend]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Without sharing vital information with the community, there is a marked increase in potential hazards. All chemicals are not created equal. Firefighters should know specifically how to fight a fire. Hospitals should know what types of treatments they should have on hand.

The 88 million dollar saving will be offset by justifiable claims against the companies when a disaster inevitably happens.

Okay then government should regulate trees, they may fall over and kill someone. All trees to be inspected on a monthly basis. There's like a trillion trees think of how many people may die.

Do you really think trees pose a greater environmental and health and safety concern than a chemical depot?

OMG there are trillions of dangerous trees that could fall at any moment ALARM!!!

 

[BluesLegend]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

 

[Coyote]

...

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Easy! Early 2011. First responders arrived at a steel processing mill just twenty five miles down river from me. The firefighters were not told about a pallet of drums containing manganese. When they hit the fire with water, it exploded the manganese and killed three.

Some folks think there's never a sound reason for regulations. These are the same folks who lose health, life or property after a disaster shouting "There oughta be a law!"

Manganese isn't a toxic chemical, dumbass. It wouldn't have even been covered by this regulation. If the fire fighters had simply contacted the plant management, they would have been told about the manganese.

I think it would have been covered.

 

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

 

[Coyote]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1155.pdf
Manganese powder and dust are FLAMMABLE and DANGEROUS FIRE HAZARDS. Use sand or dry chemicals appropriate for extinguishing metal fires. POISONOUS GASES ARE PRODUCED IN FIRE, including Manganese Oxides. Manganese powder and dust may form an ignitable vapor/air mixture in closed tanks or containers.

 

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

Statists always claim that regulations would have prevented some disaster or another. Of course, the regulations always come after the disaster.

 

[bripat9643]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1155.pdf
Manganese powder and dust are FLAMMABLE and DANGEROUS FIRE HAZARDS. Use sand or dry chemicals appropriate for extinguishing metal fires. POISONOUS GASES ARE PRODUCED IN FIRE, including Manganese Oxides. Manganese powder and dust may form an ignitable vapor/air mixture in closed tanks or containers.

No one said it was manganese powder. It doesn't burst into flame on contact with water either. It's a metal that is commonly alloyed with steel.

 

[BluesLegend]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

LMAO I was insulting Obama, regulations to avoid Obama's election, that joke flew over your head.

 

[BluesLegend]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

Statists always claim that regulations would have prevented some disaster or another. Of course, the regulations always come after the disaster.

Or cause them.

 

[Nosmo King]

Possession, storage, shipping of chemicals is regulated to the nth degree at the federal level just relax.

Apparently NOT enough, given what has happened at multiple disasters because this information is not shared with communities or first responders.

Name one "disaster" where these regulations would have saved a single life.

Obama was elected in 2008, regulations to avoid that would have saved lives.

His regulations wouldn't have avoided it. moron. That's what I just explained to you. Manganese isn't a toxic chemical. It's a metal. In fact, it's not even flamable.

Until you douse it with water.

 

[OKTexas]

NO!


.

And crime is not a national concern? How else will police be equipped to take down an active shooter? How will they be equipped to crack down on the opioid crisis? How will they be equipped and trained to crack down on your own biggest boogeyman, illegal immigrants? Muslims and those uppity Negroes?

For a group that shouts "law and order?", you sure have wacky notions on how to make that happen. You willingly pay for national defense. What about the threats heroes face right here at home?

State law enforcement agencies should be funded by the State, counties and localities. Remember this:

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -James Madison Federalist 45

.

Two errors in your judgment.

First, the Federalist Papers are not the law of the land. The founding fathers were not infallible. They built in the option of changing and amending the constitution at the will of the people. The Federalist Papers amounts to commentary, but not precedent.

And James Madison knew nothing about how this nation would eventually grow and drive the economy, security and viability of the world. There were no corporations in Madison's time. Nothing more hazardous than a back yard forge or a water driven saw mill.

If corporations are people too, they can certainly bear standards that not only protect their own property and employees, but their neighbors and the health and safety of those who show up to help that corporation's disaster.

You have yet to come up with a viable argument why the States and localities are incapable of instituting regulations they feel are necessary in this regard.


.

For the reasons I worked with for twenty years.

I am an Environmental engineer by training. I'm retired now.

Back in my Environmental days, I would have projects at U.S. Navy bases up and down the east coast. From Quincy, MA to Hampton Roads, VA. I can tell you that the service-wide standards in the Navy made my projects go much smoother. The bidding process for local contractors went especially smoothly. Their employees, methods and materials were consistent all along the coast.

I also had private sector clients in many of the same states. Every facility had to be considered for contractor and employee licensing requirements, hazardous waste disposal facilities, even PELs (Personal Exposure Limits). All that added to the cost and, ultimately, the assurance of quality workmanship when dealing with hazardous materials.

You do realize the regulations have nothing to do with training local first responders, right? It just provides information of materials on the site. Local first responders can get the information themselves, without federal involvement, through local or State regulation, or just establishing a good relations with the companies in their area.

This is easily accomplished by the companies providing first responders with the Safety Data Sheets, the quantities and location of each material on site.


.