Faith is Born from Fear

[Hollie]

Putting an even finer point on the point in the above. Hawking is famous—or is it infamous?—for claiming that "[p]hilosophy is dead." Yet the work in which he makes that amazingly obtuse claim is in fact pure philosophy, scientifically unfalsifiable assertions regarding the metaphysics of ontology. Dude! But then the philosophers of the new atheism are notoriously bad thinkers and utterly unaware of the fact that the historical cannon of ideas rendered their "new" objections to theism moot centuries ago. LOL!

Putting a “finer point” on a bankrupt argument will not save the argument. I guess we must put it in the same category as failed “pwoofs” of your imaginary philosophical, scientific and logical pwoofs for your gawds; A vacuous claim that you were unable to actually support.

Why would any qualification in philosophy or theology be necessary? The issues here are not philosophical or theological. The natural world (to exclude such supernatural inventions as your partisan version of gawds) is entirely a scientific issue. The natural, ie:, rational world, can be discussed, explored and understood without any necessity of recourse to philosophy.

This is why religionists, supernaturalists, ect., tend to run screaming from actual discussion of the science involved and instead insist that the issues are philosophical or theological. They must set up and knock down irrelevant straw men, otherwise they are directly faced with their lack of scientific evidence or argument.

Philosophy (as eventually separated from science) is among the most futile of human endeavors. It delivers essentially nothing of genuine human utility. It can be used to argue anything, since it ultimately has no obligation to be true.

Sadly, Hollie, trying to have a discussion about this stuff is often like trying to play chess with a rooster. The rooster will just kick all pieces off the board and crow in triumph every time.

Don't be silly, AtheistBuddah, Hollie doesn't know anything worth knowing about science either. He/she always writes this very same drivel about philosophy and science, which is utterly wrong, of course, as science rests on a metaphysical presupposition, and then runs the moment I do get into the science.

So since neither one of you are packin' any intellectual heat worth engaging, how about a duck joke?
_______________________________________

A duck walks into a bar, bellys up and orders up a charcoal-filtered nice on the rocks. This quack likes his smooth chilled, see. The bartender serves the duck his drink, and the duck tells the bartender to bring him some gumballs.

"Sorry, don't have any gumballs," the bartender tells the duck.

So the duck downs his smooth, pays and leaves, see.

The very next day the duck returns and orders another nice on the rocks. "Let me get some gumballs with that," says the duck.

"Like I told you yesterday, I don't have any gumballs."

The duck downs his smooth, pays and leaves.

Same thing the very next day: the duck orders a nice on the rocks and gumballs.

"Look here, you stupid quack. I've told you twice already that I don't have any gumballs. Ask me about gumballs one more time and I'll nail you to that wall by your bill. Check?"

So the duck downs his smooth, pays and leaves.

The duck comes back to the bar again the very next day and orders a nice on the rocks and a box of nails.

"Does this look like Ace Hardware? I ain't got any nails either."

"In that case, I'll have some gumballs," says the duck.

What I find interesting is that my challenge to your pointless and useless enlistment of philosophy and theology vs. the methods of science to advance knowledge leaves you stuttering and mumbling with duck jokes.

As usual, your utter inability to defend the theistic worldview, wherein you live in trembling fear of angry gawds and fantastical claims of an inversion of a reality based existence is actually pretty nihilistic and child-like. You revile science because it strips away the fears and superstitions you require to maintain your religious dogma. You require that there remain questions about the natural world that mankind can never hope to attain true knowledge about, and that means our place in the universe is hopelessly obscured. This is a sweepingly nihilistic and child-like point of view, and you fundie zealots don't connect the dots to this inescapable conclusion. The cul de sac remains forever in place-- "Gawds did it, and that's that."

How this suffices as an answer to anything is beyond any reasoning I can come up with. I understand that those three words, "Gawds did it" are enough for a lot of people, but people of careful thought should be deeply dissatisfied with it. That they are not smacks more of a desire to keep a comforting myth as opposed to facing a sometimes cold-- but understandable-- reality.

 

[Hollie]

.... or L. Ron Hubbard, or Jimmy Swaggert.

Yeah, don't put your trust in man.

Put your trust in Mohammed. He perfected your religion.

 

[turzovka]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

The proof for God on the basis of miracles is shaky at best. Can you prove that these events were miracles. Can they be repeated? Can they be peer reviewed. Can they stand up to the rigors of peer review and the scientific method? If they can't then they're nothing more than anecdotes and they are worthless as actual evidence of anything.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Faith is born from fear?

LOL

 

[turzovka]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

What "miracles" are you suggesting will support you religious belief? I'm not aware of a single, verifiable "miracle" that can be connected to your gods.

Ultimately, "miracles" are for those who are unable to accept reality and thus shelter themselves in a world of fear and superstition. You will say that a lot of events happened purely as an intervention of your gods, i.e., via an undemonstrated series of miracles and supernatural events, all unsubstantiated, all unproven, all categorically denied by mountains of evidence to the contrary. Yet, you will believe in some notion of an infallible series of bibles that contained numerous errors and outright contradictions.

Sorry if the above sounds harsh but Theism is not science, because it relies completely on miraculous interventions (floods, miracles and the creation itself, not to mention just about all the rest of the book(s))-- things that cannot be used in the formulation of a scientific theory. Since miraculous events cannot be tested, repeated, nor can the processes by which they operate be described, they must be taken on faith. Theism is an expression of religious belief-- not science. There is a huge difference.

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

The proof for God on the basis of miracles is shaky at best. Can you prove that these events were miracles. Can they be repeated? Can they be peer reviewed. Can they stand up to the rigors of peer review and the scientific method? If they can't then they're nothing more than anecdotes and they are worthless as actual evidence of anything.

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

The proof for God on the basis of miracles is shaky at best. Can you prove that these events were miracles. Can they be repeated? Can they be peer reviewed. Can they stand up to the rigors of peer review and the scientific method? If they can't then they're nothing more than anecdotes and they are worthless as actual evidence of anything.

Oh, sure. Science sits on their self-acclaimed throne, but when so often confronted with the possibility their confounding findings point to a supreme being or intelligence --- all too often they back off and say "that is not our area of study."

Then what good are they? They are a notch or two above other sources trying to entertain us for a time.

Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon its own laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

What I find interesting is that my challenge to your pointless and useless enlistment of philosophy and theology vs. the methods of science to advance knowledge leaves you stuttering and mumbling with duck jokes.

As usual, your utter inability to defend the theistic worldview, wherein you live in trembling fear of angry gawds and fantastical claims of an inversion of a reality based existence is actually pretty nihilistic and child-like. You revile science because it strips away the fears and superstitions you require to maintain your religious dogma. You require that there remain questions about the natural world that mankind can never hope to attain true knowledge about, and that means our place in the universe is hopelessly obscured. This is a sweepingly nihilistic and child-like point of view, and you fundie zealots don't connect the dots to this inescapable conclusion. The cul de sac remains forever in place-- "Gawds did it, and that's that."

How this suffices as an answer to anything is beyond any reasoning I can come up with. I understand that those three words, "Gawds did it" are enough for a lot of people, but people of careful thought should be deeply dissatisfied with it. That they are not smacks more of a desire to keep a comforting myth as opposed to facing a sometimes cold-- but understandable-- reality.

A man walks into a bar and ducks.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

What "miracles" are you suggesting will support you religious belief? I'm not aware of a single, verifiable "miracle" that can be connected to your gods.

Ultimately, "miracles" are for those who are unable to accept reality and thus shelter themselves in a world of fear and superstition. You will say that a lot of events happened purely as an intervention of your gods, i.e., via an undemonstrated series of miracles and supernatural events, all unsubstantiated, all unproven, all categorically denied by mountains of evidence to the contrary. Yet, you will believe in some notion of an infallible series of bibles that contained numerous errors and outright contradictions.

Sorry if the above sounds harsh but Theism is not science, because it relies completely on miraculous interventions (floods, miracles and the creation itself, not to mention just about all the rest of the book(s))-- things that cannot be used in the formulation of a scientific theory. Since miraculous events cannot be tested, repeated, nor can the processes by which they operate be described, they must be taken on faith. Theism is an expression of religious belief-- not science. There is a huge difference.

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

The proof for God on the basis of miracles is shaky at best. Can you prove that these events were miracles. Can they be repeated? Can they be peer reviewed. Can they stand up to the rigors of peer review and the scientific method? If they can't then they're nothing more than anecdotes and they are worthless as actual evidence of anything.

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

[ They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. ]

II am not afraid to ask myself that question, I am just afraid of the answer, i.e. that would be an untold horror ceasing to exist forever. And if I held that opinion that there probably is no God I would surely go mad.

But as a well-informed Christian, I can assure I am well beyond that question for I am certain it is totally hypothetical and the evidence against it has rendered it moot. On the other hand, it truly must be a nervy way to live thinking or believing it will soon be all over forever. No, there is no comfort in that.

I cannot begin to explain to myself how intelligent minds cannot see the 1) absolute need for a higher being for life to exist, 2) how they can also dismiss a host of supernatural phenomena over history. I mean, how many miracles does it take to defeat the proposition "there is no God?"

You just admitted that your opinion is formed by starting from a point of fear based bias and then working forward to a conclusion that helps you sleep at night. You just confirmed what I said in the op making everything you said against it moot. I swear sometimes getting on this site and debating Christians is like a Jedi fighting a quadriplegic, it just isn't fair lol.

I hope your next reply is more interesting than this one.

If I started at fear (not sure I follow?) then so be it. But things change. My new starting point is this: "The evidence for God is legion. And not just any god, The God of Judaism and Christianity. God has manifested Himself through miracles many times over if that is what you insist upon."

So if you ask me what if there were no God, I answered. I would go mad. But I no longer doubt that hypothetical as a possibility any more than I know my own mother when I behold her from two feet away.

The proof for God on the basis of miracles is shaky at best. Can you prove that these events were miracles. Can they be repeated? Can they be peer reviewed. Can they stand up to the rigors of peer review and the scientific method? If they can't then they're nothing more than anecdotes and they are worthless as actual evidence of anything.

Oh, sure. Science sits on their self-acclaimed throne, but when so often confronted with the possibility their confounding findings point to a supreme being or intelligence --- all too often they back off and say "that is not our area of study."

Then what good are they? They are a notch or two above other sources trying to entertain us for a time.

Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon its own laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."

You quoted so much to come back with so little. Science does much more than simply entertain us. It has taken us leaps and bounds beyond what we were only a hundred years ago. Imagine where it will take us in the next thousand.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Lol, bullshit.

Atheism is a fringe cult where people simply want to avoid objective moral values systems that crimp their 'life style', whatever that may be from dope smoking law breakers to gays to commie fucktards.

If Christians are wrong, then there is only oblivion, and no one to suffer at all for any reason. Just *poof* and nothing matters any more. Hardly the stuff that requires courage.

What requires courage is to believe that a Creator has set some tough standards for your life and how you live and you will answer for how you live.

Atheism has all the 'courage' of the child that never has to mind or obey their parents because there is no plausible punishment that they might get for behaving badly.

AKA a Big Brat.

 

[JimBowie1958]

What I find interesting is that my challenge to your pointless and useless enlistment of philosophy and theology vs. the methods of science to advance knowledge leaves you stuttering and mumbling with duck jokes.

As usual, your utter inability to defend the theistic worldview, wherein you live in trembling fear of angry gawds and fantastical claims of an inversion of a reality based existence is actually pretty nihilistic and child-like. You revile science because it strips away the fears and superstitions you require to maintain your religious dogma. You require that there remain questions about the natural world that mankind can never hope to attain true knowledge about, and that means our place in the universe is hopelessly obscured. This is a sweepingly nihilistic and child-like point of view, and you fundie zealots don't connect the dots to this inescapable conclusion. The cul de sac remains forever in place-- "Gawds did it, and that's that."

How this suffices as an answer to anything is beyond any reasoning I can come up with. I understand that those three words, "Gawds did it" are enough for a lot of people, but people of careful thought should be deeply dissatisfied with it. That they are not smacks more of a desire to keep a comforting myth as opposed to facing a sometimes cold-- but understandable-- reality.

A man walks into a bar and ducks.

I get the bar part, but why walk into ducks?

 

[turzovka]

[me: Oh, sure. Science sits on their self-acclaimed throne, but when so often confronted with the possibility their confounding findings point to a supreme being or intelligence --- all too often they back off and say "that is not our area of study."

Then what good are they? They are a notch or two above other sources trying to entertain us for a time.

Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon its own laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."}

You quoted so much to come back with so little. Science does much more than simply entertain us. It has taken us leaps and bounds beyond what we were only a hundred years ago. Imagine where it will take us in the next thousand.

The quote sufficed. Did you miss or ignore the point on purpose?

If science is want to render an opinion on the evidence for an intelligent designer, then they deal only with mammon. It causes devotees more harm than good if they use it to ignore the Creator.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Put your trust in Mohammed. He perfected your religion.

Exactly my point. Don't put your belief in mankind.

 

[Malamute]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

I think it is rather ignorant to presume you know exactly what a Christian thinks. When you don't have faith, it's like being a blind person who cannot understand the concept of colors when you are trying to have someone explain faith.

To me it comes down to whether someone believes in only the physical world of atoms and molecules and that's all we are, nothing at all really matters -- like murder or war because what difference does it make to atoms or molecules if they get rearranged?

Faith is something some people feel more than anything. Or they can just believe that there is something beyond the merely physical world of atoms and molecules, that we are more than just that.

 

[ninja007]

true saving faith stems from the Holy Spirit and is spiritual in nature; not physical or man made.

 

[Malamute]

It seems you do at least consider a classical religious idea, if not one typically considered in the west. Taking it one step higher, if we are but parts of a greater whole then it really isn't hostile to life at all. A rain drop falling into the ocean loses nothing except being a drop, and gains much by becoming an ocean.

While I recognize some sort of eastern philosophy my thing's actually from the pov of physics. At the atomic level, there's no appreciable separation from one atom to another atom. Where the atoms which make up my feet meet the atoms which make up the ground is neglible. Extended out to the whole of the universe, since even space is made up of something (dark matter et al.) then where the atoms which make up my foot touch the earth, the arth touches the atoms of the atmosphere which touch the atoms of space...Thus we're in a literal, empirical sense, one thing.

The more you study the physical world, the more you see it's not what it appears. More and more the idea of "mass" has become outdated. Before the atom was thought to be comprised of an energy particle and a mass particle but more and more, even the mass is just energy.

There is a sameness to atoms, they're neutrons, protons, and electrons. If that's all there is, then nothing matters. Death isn't sad, the physical laws tell us nothing is destroyed, only converted to another form. Violence doesn't matter. There is no choice, no love, everything is just some chemical reaction and following laws of physics. Nothing is right or wrong.

 

[ninja007]

Romans 10:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Malamute]

You ever hear of protesting too much? That's the op.

On the contrary, Christians DON'T have to live in fear because Christ died for their sins and paid the price.

John 3:16 King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The op is protesting too much he doesn't have fear and making it clear, he's living in denial.

I made no form of protest. I stated facts. Also I just have to point out that the irony of your closing statement is pretty funny.

No, sorry you did not post facts, you posted YOUR OPINION. And in it, you protested way too much.

Your protesting too much, betrays fear. Your anger betrays fear.

If you were so darn secure, you wouldn't need to be declaring why you think atheism is better than Christianity. Obviously, Christianity worries you. You can read it all over the op. Maybe you don't see it, but everyone else does.

BTW, I don't fear hell. I don't have to, I'm covered by the blood of Jesus.

But you? What is the old saying? If a Christian is wrong then, he's wrong. He'll die and never know he was wrong.

But if YOU are wrong, then what? Better think about that.

A true atheist wouldn't care if some sets of molecules believed in God. To a true atheist it's all just the laws of physics and thoughts are just electrical impulses and chemical reactions that occur in the brain. To a true atheist, we determine nothing, it's all determined by how our molecules are arranged and the laws of physics.

 

[ninja007]

I forget the name of this theory... but I agree- If atheists are wrong about their being a God (the Christian God) they lose everything forever in the next life (eternal). If Christians are wrong, they lose nothing in eternity. Both tend to do or at least want to do good to each other here.

To think/believe/feel that there is nothing after this short life and nothing matters as far as eternity is imho the most ILLOGICAL thing their is.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Lol, bullshit.

Atheism is a fringe cult where people simply want to avoid objective moral values systems that crimp their 'life style', whatever that may be from dope smoking law breakers to gays to commie fucktards.

If Christians are wrong, then there is only oblivion, and no one to suffer at all for any reason. Just *poof* and nothing matters any more. Hardly the stuff that requires courage.

What requires courage is to believe that a Creator has set some tough standards for your life and how you live and you will answer for how you live.

Atheism has all the 'courage' of the child that never has to mind or obey their parents because there is no plausible punishment that they might get for behaving badly.

AKA a Big Brat.

Your post only reveals your ignorance and the fact that you don't know anything beyond the one viewpoint you've likely been raised to hold because you are arrogant enough to think that it is automatically the best because it's held by you and yours.

Right, because we just kill our children, oh no wait, that's a Christian I'm thinking of: Andrea Yates
Or send our children across foreign borders illegally to be re-educated, shit no that's Christians too: Kidnapped for Christ.
Or maybe we go commit murder because some prominent figure, related to our "fringe cult" told us too. Oh no wait, that's also Christians. I'm all mixed up right now aren't I?: Christian cult members on trial for murder Christian News on Christian Today

Sure because, none of the other religions exist right? They don't factor into the equation at all do they?

Of course, because there's nothing called the justice system and the penal system that will make sure they spend the only life they think they'll ever get behind bars trying not to get rapped or anything like that.

My advice to you. Quit now.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

[me: Oh, sure. Science sits on their self-acclaimed throne, but when so often confronted with the possibility their confounding findings point to a supreme being or intelligence --- all too often they back off and say "that is not our area of study."

Then what good are they? They are a notch or two above other sources trying to entertain us for a time.

Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon its own laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."}

You quoted so much to come back with so little. Science does much more than simply entertain us. It has taken us leaps and bounds beyond what we were only a hundred years ago. Imagine where it will take us in the next thousand.

The quote sufficed. Did you miss or ignore the point on purpose?

If science is want to render an opinion on the evidence for an intelligent designer, then they deal only with mammon. It causes devotees more harm than good if they use it to ignore the Creator.

So doubling our lifespan, finding cures to countless diseases, giving us ways to vastly increase food production and dauntlessly working towards abundant clean energy does more harm than good to society does it?