FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill

[manu1959]

government health insurance will have a board that will make policy as to who will and will not be covered....the cost of coverage and what will and won't be covered.....to say there will not be a board making such policy is simply naive.....

 

[Immanuel]

No true. That is absolutely NOT true. You can pay out of pocket for anything you want. Where do you get that idea?

Right, you think health care professionals are going to provide services they are NOT going to get paid for? They don't do it now. In today's world, when they provide services for the uninsured in which they know they will not be paid for, they can turn around and get paid by other means by the insurance companies which is part of the reason that our rates are so high. Also the government pays for emergency services. In the future, there will be only ONE insurance company and when they say no... they won't pay.

What is going to happen to the uninsured that enters an emergency room? Oh wait, you won't be able to be uninsured.... but then what happens to John Doe when he goes to a specialist and the government has said... "No coverage for Mr. Doe"? Mr. Doe will not be able to receive those services (unless of course, Mr Doe has a large amount of cash stored that the government hasn't stolen) because the government has said they are not paying for it. Basically, Mr. Doe is screwed.

Basically, the "health care pool" if it even exists five years after the institution of this plan, will be nothing more than public insurance. There will be no negotiation of fees between insurance companies and medical professionals. The government will tell medical professionals what the government is going to pay and not a dime more.


Immie

 

[Fatality]

FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill
AP – Tue Aug 11, 3:04 am ET
...Sarah Palin says the health care overhaul bill would set up a "death panel." Federal bureaucrats would play God, ruling on whether ailing seniors are worth enough to society to deserve life-sustaining medical care. Palin and other critics are wrong.​

health care scam dies on the very fact that it is opressive and coersive, it forces people into the program against their will and forces them to become slaves to the state to pay for it

 

[oreo]

Try a little harder, silly lib apologist.

Here is an interesting (and by interesting I mean pathetically sick) video of your savior, the enlightened and articulate Barack Hussein Obama, telling a poor woman to take a pill.

No surgery for you.

YouTube - Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill

DITTO--

Dr. Obama didn't mention that long term use of prescription pain medications--kill kidneys & hearts--ultimately killing the patient--who could have lived without all these pain pills if the surgery would have been done according to the patients doctors advice.

 

[oreo]

government health insurance will have a board that will make policy as to who will and will not be covered....the cost of coverage and what will and won't be covered.....to say there will not be a board making such policy is simply naive.....

DITTO--let alone the fact that our federal government couldn't operate a lemonaid stand without bankrupting it.

 

[MaggieMae]

Really? And just how far do you think such a suit would get before it was thrown out of court?

The clerk's desk? Think it would make it that far?

Immie

You're kidding, right? Crafty lawyers are constantly waiting in the wings for some new "cause" to concoct class action suits. And you must not know much about the legal process and the courts. Nothing is "thrown out" except by a judge and that's only AFTER a complaint and answer to the complaint are filed. As long as a person has the filing fee, you can file a complaint against your mother for force-feeding you macaroni and cheese that made you fat.

The irony of this particular back and forth is that if intentional ending of a person's life by the government were indeed part of the dark 'plan,' then the same government would be clamoring for tort reform which would have the effect of quashing such lawsuits (as you suggest they would).

You can sue your mother if you have the filing fee, but you can't sue the federal government unless it consents to being sued with only narrow exceptions.

The FTCA [Federal Tort Claims Act] provides a limited waiver of the federal government's sovereign immunity when its employees are negligent within the scope of their employment. Under the FTCA, the government can only be sued 'under circumstances where the United States, if a private person, would be liable to the claimant in accordance with the law of the place where the act or omission occurred.' 28 U.S.C. S 1346(b). Thus, the FTCA does not apply to conduct that is uniquely governmental, that is, incapable of performance by a private individual.

Can you sue the federal government? - Yahoo! Answers

Which is precisely why in any lawsuit against the United States government wherein it is the prime defendant, there are numerous individuals named along with several Does (I, II, III, et al., just to cover all bases). That clause is meaningless. The best recent example was the lawsuit filed by the families of the victims of the attacks of 911. There was also another one (after that was settled by the compensation fund), alleging the US Government's non-response to the recommendations of the 911 Commission. Here is how it was filed:

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA


ELLEN MARIANI, Individually, as )
Personal Representative of the Estate )
of LOUIS NEIL MARIANI, deceased, )
and others similarly situated[1],

Plaintiff, )

vs. ) Case No. 03-5273



GEORGE W. BUSH[2], President of ) Judge Eduardo C. Robreno
the United States, Officially and )
Individually, ) JURY TRIAL DEMANDED

and )


RICHARD CHENEY, Vice President of )
The United States, Officially and )
Individually, )


and )

JOHN ASHCROFT, Attorney General of )
the United States (DOJ), Officially and )
Individually, )

and

DONALD H. RUMSFELD, Secretary of )
Defense (DOD), Officially and )
Individually, )

and )

GEORGE J. TENET, Director, Central )
Intelligence Agency (CIA), Officially and )
Individually, )

and

NORMAN Y. MINETA, Secretary, )
Department of Transportation (DOT), )
Officially and Individually, )

and

PETER G. PETERSON, Chairman of the )
Board, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN )
RELATIONS (CFR)[3], Officially and )
Individually, )

and

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, National )
Security Advisor, to Defendant Bush, )
Officially and Individually, )

and .......

Other unnamed past, present, officials, )
representatives, agents, and private )
consultants of THE UNITED STATES )
OF AMERICA, )


Defendants.[5] )



PLAINTIFF'S AMENDED COMPLAINT[6]


NOW COMES the Plaintiff, Ellen Mariani, on information, belief and established facts, by and through her counsel of record, Philip J. Berg, Esquire, and for her causes of action against all named and unnamed Defendants states the following:

STATEMENT OF THE CASE
1. Plaintiff commenced this civil action on September 12, 2003, by filing of Complaint with this Honorable Court. Since Plaintiff's initial filing and the 'firestorm" surrounding Defendant GWB's refusal to comply with the "911 Commission[7]," this Amended Complaint provides newly discovered substantial additional facts, evidence and voluntary support from former federal employees and other concerned American Citizens who all seek justice and the truth as to how and why the events of September 11, 2001, (hereinafter "911"), occurred. Plaintiff hereby asserts Defendants, officially and individually are exclusively liable to answer the Counts in this Complaint under the United States Constitution and provisions of the 18 U.S.C. § 1964(a) and (c), Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (hereinafter "RICO Act") for "failing to act and prevent" .....

Ellen Mariani's RICO Suit against Bush et al.

 

[MaggieMae]

I listened to what Obama said, while he'd not call them 'death panels' he agrees as does all countries with government provided insurance that people that are not 'healthy' shouldn't be prolonging their lives, regardless of quality. It's not 'personal' but for the 'good of the most', meaning socialism.

I didn't recall him mentioning other countries in any analogy, so I pulled up a copy of the text of the town hall exchanges in Portsmouth. Nope, he didn't. And your statement isn't even close to anything he said about so-called "death panels" or health care rationing. Making stuff up again hoping it will stick?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/us/politics/12obama.text.html

You are lying, but it's to be expected.

Something wrong with your eyeballs?

 

[MaggieMae]

Highlights are mine.

Democrats have to substantiate that things not in the bill won't happen?

Isn't that just a little absurd?

A requirement that everyone pay 50% more in taxes isn't in the bill either - do you think it shoud be voted down because that COULD happen?

Really?

Republicans are infamous for their "what-if" political strategy. They win elections by using it; they start wars based on it; they appeal to the highest animal instinct of fear by using it. When you think about it, Republican (conservative) ideology is nothing BUT fear-based what-if scenarios such as Randism and Neoconism.

and you have links to all your accusations? If not, f off, if so, list them.

Why do I need links? It's been visible and written history, my friend. I would need to post thousands of pages of links. And I'm not about to fuck off. You know how to put someone on ignore, don't you? Hope so, after your award winning 41,000 posts on this board.

 

[skookerasbil]

Nope.......its a death panel by any sane persons definition. The Dums are going arouond talking about "Myths". They have no shame...........they'll say anything hoping people dont check the facts. ( which is of course, how they get elected in the first place )

Death panels exist in any country where government run health care esists. And its not just the eldery that have their lives to lose. Indeed.........the government will determine in all cases who are the health winners and who are the health losers. Its all there........crystal clear in the bill. Only the sheep cant see it..........the dolts of our society who implicitly trust the government without question.

 

[Fatality]

Try a little harder, silly lib apologist.

Here is an interesting (and by interesting I mean pathetically sick) video of your savior, the enlightened and articulate Barack Hussein Obama, telling a poor woman to take a pill.

No surgery for you.

YouTube - Obama to Jane Sturm: Hey, take a pill

obama the bloody butchering nazi pig. people like jack kevorkian will thrive in oamas death centers

 

[MaggieMae]

Republicans are infamous for their "what-if" political strategy. They win elections by using it; they start wars based on it; they appeal to the highest animal instinct of fear by using it. When you think about it, Republican (conservative) ideology is nothing BUT fear-based what-if scenarios such as Randism and Neoconism.

For the record, I am not a Republican and as to whether or not, I am a conservative, I will admit to having many conservative beliefs, but quite truthfully, I have trouble really identifying myself as either conservative or mildly liberal because although I believe abortion is wrong, I have many reservations as to whether or not it should be illegal. I am for Welfare as long as it is not something permanent for those who are just too plain lazy to get off there butts and go to work. I have many left leaning feelings.

As for health care reform, I know that we are in a crisis. The Republicans didn't do crap when they had the chance. Hell, I'm not even sure they mentioned it in the last 9 years. I am, however, very concerned about the government running health care. One thing that keeps me from being termed liberal in many more things, is that I do not believe that the government can do anything successful or efficiently.

Bigger government is a disaster waiting to happen.

You can say, I am fear-mongering if you want. But, if I am, it is only because I am fearful of what those people in Washington are doing to this country.

Immie

I was talking in general terms in my what-if analysis. No one knows better than me that there remain millions of Republicans who are not conservatives on the fringe of hysteria, and they are mighty unhappy that the GOP has allowed those voices to drown out common sense and dictate policy with no intention of engaging in civil bipartisan exchanges.

 

[EriktheRed]

government health insurance will have a board that will make policy as to who will and will not be covered....the cost of coverage and what will and won't be covered.....to say there will not be a board making such policy is simply naive.....

Who said otherwise?

 

[MaggieMae]

government health insurance will have a board that will make policy as to who will and will not be covered....the cost of coverage and what will and won't be covered.....to say there will not be a board making such policy is simply naive.....

A late bloomer who apparently hasn't read all the wealth of information contained elsewhere in this thread. Start now, Manu.

 

[skookerasbil]

No true. That is absolutely NOT true. You can pay out of pocket for anything you want. Where do you get that idea?

Right, you think health care professionals are going to provide services they are NOT going to get paid for? They don't do it now. In today's world, when they provide services for the uninsured in which they know they will not be paid for, they can turn around and get paid by other means by the insurance companies which is part of the reason that our rates are so high. Also the government pays for emergency services. In the future, there will be only ONE insurance company and when they say no... they won't pay.

What is going to happen to the uninsured that enters an emergency room? Oh wait, you won't be able to be uninsured.... but then what happens to John Doe when he goes to a specialist and the government has said... "No coverage for Mr. Doe"? Mr. Doe will not be able to receive those services (unless of course, Mr Doe has a large amount of cash stored that the government hasn't stolen) because the government has said they are not paying for it. Basically, Mr. Doe is screwed.

Basically, the "health care pool" if it even exists five years after the institution of this plan, will be nothing more than public insurance. There will be no negotiation of fees between insurance companies and medical professionals. The government will tell medical professionals what the government is going to pay and not a dime more.


Immie

How spot on is this post ^^^ ???

The sheep simply have an inability to think on the margin in terms of the tradeoffs. They just cant do it.

Immie.........your last sentence in the above post is compelling. The translation? Well.......to anybody with the ability to think on the margin, it means with 100% certainty that the quality of health professionals will be reduced, particularly in terms of doctors. Leties never think twice about what the cost is for becomming a trained medical professional. Government will most definately remove the incentive. The bozo's can never recognize this...........to them, it all remains static in the world of Disney. Invariably...........when the government gets involved in the decisionmaking process of anything, the market gets screwed. The whole field is dumbed down. Lefties fail to be able to embrace this concept..........its part of the "liberalism is a mental disorder" concept. Its fcukking fascinating.

 

[MaggieMae]

No true. That is absolutely NOT true. You can pay out of pocket for anything you want. Where do you get that idea?

Right, you think health care professionals are going to provide services they are NOT going to get paid for? They don't do it now. In today's world, when they provide services for the uninsured in which they know they will not be paid for, they can turn around and get paid by other means by the insurance companies which is part of the reason that our rates are so high. Also the government pays for emergency services. In the future, there will be only ONE insurance company and when they say no... they won't pay.

What is going to happen to the uninsured that enters an emergency room? Oh wait, you won't be able to be uninsured.... but then what happens to John Doe when he goes to a specialist and the government has said... "No coverage for Mr. Doe"? Mr. Doe will not be able to receive those services (unless of course, Mr Doe has a large amount of cash stored that the government hasn't stolen) because the government has said they are not paying for it. Basically, Mr. Doe is screwed.

Basically, the "health care pool" if it even exists five years after the institution of this plan, will be nothing more than public insurance. There will be no negotiation of fees between insurance companies and medical professionals. The government will tell medical professionals what the government is going to pay and not a dime more.


Immie

If I need an operation that my doctor and hospital decide will cost $50,000 and I go to my bank and withdraw $50,000 in cash and pay them up front, I will have the surgery. While they may not accept a personal IOU, yes, they will still take cash (or probably Visa or MC!).

 

[Immanuel]

I was talking in general terms in my what-if analysis. No one knows better than me that there remain millions of Republicans who are not conservatives on the fringe of hysteria, and they are mighty unhappy that the GOP has allowed those voices to drown out common sense and dictate policy with no intention of engaging in civil bipartisan exchanges.

Hey wait a minute! I think I have remained extremely civil and somewhat bipartisan as I don't like either side! However, hysterical? Yeah, you might say I have a problem with giving Uncle O, control of my health and well being. The thought of that freaks me out more than the thought of putting my head into the mouth of a starving lion.

You want me to get nasty? Do you really want the Mr. Hyde to come out of me? Please say no, because I hate that S.O.B.!

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

If I need an operation that my doctor and hospital decide will cost $50,000 and I go to my bank and withdraw $50,000 in cash and pay them up front, I will have the surgery. While they may not accept a personal IOU, yes, they will still take cash (or probably Visa or MC!).

Great and what about me, I only have five thousand stashed away that I can get my hands on easily and maybe $20,000 if I reach deep into the plastic. Guess, I'm screwed.

Immie

 

[MaggieMae]

I was talking in general terms in my what-if analysis. No one knows better than me that there remain millions of Republicans who are not conservatives on the fringe of hysteria, and they are mighty unhappy that the GOP has allowed those voices to drown out common sense and dictate policy with no intention of engaging in civil bipartisan exchanges.

Hey wait a minute! I think I have remained extremely civil and somewhat bipartisan as I don't like either side! However, hysterical? Yeah, you might say I have a problem with giving Uncle O, control of my health and well being. The thought of that freaks me out more than the thought of putting my head into the mouth of a starving lion.

You want me to get nasty? Do you really want the Mr. Hyde to come out of me? Please say no, because I hate that S.O.B.!

Immie

Again, I wasn't talking about YOU. In fact, I tried to write it as if I was talking about the fringers, of which I don't think YOU are one at all. Sorry if it came out that way. I do think, however, that you do a lot of projecting over what might happen down the line. No one knows. But I'm pretty sure that eagle eyes will be constantly watching every move when and if any reform bill is enacted. It will begin the structuring process thereafter which is when the real fun begins!

 

[Immanuel]

Again, I wasn't talking about YOU. In fact, I tried to write it as if I was talking about the fringers, of which I don't think YOU are one at all. Sorry if it came out that way. I do think, however, that you do a lot of projecting over what might happen down the line. No one knows. But I'm pretty sure that eagle eyes will be constantly watching every move when and if any reform bill is enacted. It will begin the structuring process thereafter which is when the real fun begins!

I knew you were not talking about me. I started to read what you posted and realized you were not talking about me... but I had to play with it.

However, I am as I said deathly serious with my opposition to this plan being forced down our throats with so many unanswered questions.

As I said, I do not believe that Washington can do this well. I believe it will turn out bad for Americans. I'm not saying that because it is a Democrat plan, I'm saying it because it is a Washington plan and they simply cannot succeed at this.

Immie

 

[Gudrid]

I think anyone who opposes end-of-life counseling is blissfully ignorant of the realities of dealing with loved ones who are terminally ill or elderly and unable to care for themselves. I have had to deal with both. Bless the counselors and the hospice, and the self-involved politicians need to stop twisting something positive into a "death panel." It's disgusting and heartless and completely ignorant of reality.