F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

The AC hits within about 5 feet from center.

What exactly does this mean in terms of CEP, anything can hit within 5 feet from center it's more about how often it does so given a set of shots. Is there any source for CEP of the 105 on AC-130 versus PGMs, I'd be really interested.

I can't can't speak for tor the PGMs since I have no experience with them. But I can for the 105 and it is that accurate. The only time it can have that type of accuracy is on a stationary target. That's the type of accuracy it needs to hit a parked vehicle each time. The 105 is not the primary weapon though. It's primary weapon is either the 40mm or the 25/30 mm. If you ever listen to the sound track of an AC working, that thump thump is the 40 going off. The problem with the 105 is that it kicks the tail out when fired. They use it only on hardened targets. What makes it all work is the sensors and control booth. While ballistics will affect the smaller stuff, the big stuff is less affected by anything like wind direction (usually figured in) or any other natural affects. This is one reason why a slower 50 cal is much more accurate at extreme range than a smaller, faster caliber like a 30.

You need to ask some of the Chopper weinies about the PGMs.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Waste of money. We have ICBM's. Scrap the rest and close all foreign bases.

Are you going to fire off those ICBMs everytime some crackpot wannabe invades another small country? Yah, like Saddam would have listened to that one.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The AC hits within about 5 feet from center.

What exactly does this mean in terms of CEP, anything can hit within 5 feet from center it's more about how often it does so given a set of shots. Is there any source for CEP of the 105 on AC-130 versus PGMs, I'd be really interested.

As for tactical information on the ACs, there isn't much. In fact, they are extremely busy but you don't hear about it. While the other birds are regular service, the AC is Special Operations. Even when it does something really great, you may not hear about it for 20 years or never hear about it. During Vietnam, the AC-47 got all the press while the AC-130 didn't get any. The AC-47 got all the newsclips and movie starring roles. The only reason I know of the accuracy is, I spent time on the AC-130A and that was our accuracy with the 40s at 10,000 feet. There is no reason that the accuracy got worse as time has gone by.

 

[DrainBamage]

But I can for the 105 and it is that accurate.

Right, but this is about as vague and unscientific a measure as you can get. It's going off a notion/impression by casual observation and not attempting to define what the word "accurate" means in this context. Of course a 105 can hit a parked car, but so can any modern laser guided munition. In fact modern LGBs can hit the trunk of the car if they want. I was more interested in whether AC-130 is more accurate than PGMs.

 

[DrainBamage]

As for tactical information on the ACs, there isn't much. In fact, they are extremely busy but you don't hear about it.

It's pretty well known that AC-130s are highly worked and demand is greater than availability, so I have no idea why you think I've not heard about it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

But I can for the 105 and it is that accurate.

Right, but this is about as vague and unscientific a measure as you can get. It's going off a notion/impression by casual observation and not attempting to define what the word "accurate" means in this context. Of course a 105 can hit a parked car, but so can any modern laser guided munition. In fact modern LGBs can hit the trunk of the car if they want. I was more interested in whether AC-130 is more accurate than PGMs.

It doesn't matter. A Fighter or an Attack Bird only carries so many and can only launch so many per pass. The AC has entire racks full of 40 and 105 ammo and can fire them until they run out of ammo without having to turn around for another pass. They are all accurate enough. Is one more accurate than the other when the truck is left a burning hulk with one shot? Who cares. It's the fact it's left a burning hulk with one shot and so is all the others around it as well as the buildings, the running terrorist trying to escape meanwhile, the Mosque was completely left untouched. All done in less than a minute.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

As for tactical information on the ACs, there isn't much. In fact, they are extremely busy but you don't hear about it.

It's pretty well known that AC-130s are highly worked and demand is greater than availability, so I have no idea why you think I've not heard about it.

Did I hit your butt a bit hard? Try stepping back and taking a deep breath. Others haven't heard of this. This isn't for those that know, it's for those that don't.

 

[DrainBamage]

It doesn't matter. A Fighter or an Attack Bird only carries so many and can only launch so many per pass. The AC has entire racks full of 40 and 105 ammo and can fire them until they run out of ammo without having to turn around for another pass. They are all accurate enough. Is one more accurate than the other when the truck is left a burning hulk with one shot? Who cares. It's the fact it's left a burning hulk with one shot and so is all the others around it as well as the buildings, the running terrorist trying to escape meanwhile, the Mosque was completely left untouched. All done in less than a minute.

It matters in this discussion because you made a comment about how if they want pinpoint accuracy they call in an AC-130. This implies a greater level of accuracy than other options, which apparently nobody here knows is true or not so your comment was nonsensical. I know you're getting spun up because you're very thin skinned about being challenged but nobody is doubting the effectiveness of the AC-130, just trying to get to the bottom of this greater accuracy thing you implied.

Pointing out it has more ammo is just you stating the obvious once again, it doesn't answer the accuracy question.

Did I hit your butt a bit hard? Try stepping back and taking a deep breath. Others haven't heard of this. This isn't for those that know, it's for those that don't.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but I'd guess you're somehow greatly overestimating my emotional attachment to this. You tend to state the obvious, or restate what someone else just said, it's peculiar.

 

[SandSquid]

once you open bay doors you give away your position,

The great thing about the F35, is with it's speed and turn radius, unless you maintain on the same exact heading when you are seen with doors open, IF they are able to react in a minute to try and gain a visual or direct lock, you have 780 square miles and all sorts of altitude changes to find them in.

Also listening to the pilots talk about their ability to run a battlefield without even firing a shot in that jet. Being the datalink between land, sea and other air weapons by flying in, finding the enemy, and letting a ship off the coast send in the missile to take it out.

As for the A-10 and especially the AC-130, they are great in our current fights against countries with no air force and very limited anti-aircraft weaponary.

But again we are talking two completely different setups. Yes a submarine, an aircraft carrier, and a Cruiser can take out a building. All in different ways, and depending on the circumstances each has it's benefit.

 

[DrainBamage]

Then there's the whole kill chain the ManOnTheStreet is ignoring with his silly bay doors argument. Detection -> tracking -> targeting -> guidance -> terminal, even if the search radar got a blip from an F-35 that had it's bay doors open for 2 seconds where does that leave the rest? To take that farther, if you're in an aircraft with your radar emitting RF an F-22/F-35 will detect you passively from much farther than you radar can see them, and get in an advantageous position for a kill shot that you never saw coming. Your radar isn't detecting the bay doors on an aircraft on your rear quarter, and your life sucks because it got a shot off in the NEZ that you won't detect until it goes bulldog.

There are reports of F-22s shadowing Syrian fighters for 15 minutes as they looped over the region, getting close enough to inspect their weapon load underwing without being seen.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Then there's the whole kill chain the ManOnTheStreet is ignoring with his silly bay doors argument. Detection -> tracking -> targeting -> guidance -> terminal, even if the search radar got a blip from an F-35 that had it's bay doors open for 2 seconds where does that leave the rest? To take that farther, if you're in an aircraft with your radar emitting RF an F-22/F-35 will detect you passively from much farther than you radar can see them, and get in an advantageous position for a kill shot that you never saw coming. Your radar isn't detecting the bay doors on an aircraft on your rear quarter, and your life sucks because it got a shot off in the NEZ that you won't detect until it goes bulldog.

There are reports of F-22s shadowing Syrian fighters for 15 minutes as they looped over the region, getting close enough to inspect their weapon load underwing without being seen.

And with the addition of the new Carbon Fiber Stealth Mesh, the F-35 is even more stealthier than the F-22. Even it it were equal in that regard, the F-22 can only fly one sortie a day at best. The reason for that is the way it installs the stealth covering. It's painted on. If it shows wear and tear (and there is a lot of wear and tear on a fighter) then they have to ground the bird, send it to the special paint shop and it's down for the next 3 days. The F-35 uses panels with the stealth material baked in. When a panel shows any wear that might degrade the stealth, they change out just the panel and just the panel goes to the Fabrication Shop to be repaired and the F-35 can be turned for another mission. The B-2 has the same problem as the F-22 as they are both 1 generation behind the F-35 for stealth.

 

[SandSquid]

Then there's the whole kill chain the ManOnTheStreet is ignoring with his silly bay doors argument. Detection -> tracking -> targeting -> guidance -> terminal, even if the search radar got a blip from an F-35 that had it's bay doors open for 2 seconds where does that leave the rest? To take that farther, if you're in an aircraft with your radar emitting RF an F-22/F-35 will detect you passively from much farther than you radar can see them, and get in an advantageous position for a kill shot that you never saw coming. Your radar isn't detecting the bay doors on an aircraft on your rear quarter, and your life sucks because it got a shot off in the NEZ that you won't detect until it goes bulldog.

There are reports of F-22s shadowing Syrian fighters for 15 minutes as they looped over the region, getting close enough to inspect their weapon load underwing without being seen.

I loved the one, forget if it was a 22 or a 35, but they were trying to scare off a mig coming close to a border and were struggling to do so since he couldn't see them....

Anyways,

F-35 'kills' dozens of enemy fighters in AirWar live combat 'scenario'

Kinda neat story. F-35 pilot new to his plane with only a handful of flights, telling a legacy fighter pilot with 3000 hours that he's got a bogey on him and he'd better turn or he's going to end up dead. Then killed that opposing fighter and a few more.

The ability to see what's happening and control the battlefield is amazing.

The pilots are amazed at how far those planes have come this year, and remember, 2 years ago they had a 20:1 kill ratio at this event.

 

[DrainBamage]

Funny I've seen claims of combat but no descriptions of said combat....3f is an incomplete machine and everyone knows but hey play ignorant if ya want and think it makes you look smart, BTW as for ground support you dont even have enough ammo for 1 gun run.....

The massive international conspiracy to lie to Manonthestreet continues to grow, apparently this plane that Manonthestreet says doesn't work and can't fly combat missions with 3F has been doing a lot more combat sorties than we realized and the great conspiracy includes awarding fake combat medals to fake pilots for flying hundreds of hours of fake combat missions. I'd love to hear Col Shoop's reaction if we told him he must be lying because we've got an expert here in these forums who has assured us this plane can't do combat. We've even got two colonels who are lying about all this, since our local expert has assured us this wasn't possible.

On its first combat deployment, the Marine Corps’ F-35 bombed both the Taliban and ISIS
F-35Bs flew more than 100 combat sorties against the Taliban and ISIS while deployed aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Essex, said Lt. Col. Kyle Shoop, commander of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211. "We overall supported more than 50 days of combat flying for over 1,200 flight hours," Shoop told Task & Purpose. "We supported both Operation Freedom's Sentinel up in the Afghanistan region as well as Operation Inherent Resolve over Syria/Iraq. We employed ordnance in both theaters on numerous days," Shoop said. "Every single one of the pilots employed ordnance in theater. So, we were very busy."

The Essex quietly left San Diego in July along with the F-35B squadron and the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit embarked. The F-35B got its first taste of combat in September against a Taliban weapons cache in Afghanistan. The aircraft that flew the mission had two names inscribed on it, Shoop said: Medal of Honor recipient Capt.Henry Talmage "Hammering Hank" Elrod and Lt .Col. Christopher "Otis" Raible, the squadron's former commander, who was killed in 2012 while repelling a Taliban attack on Camp Bastion while armed only with a pistol.

During its deployment, the F-35B squadron flew close air support missions over both Afghanistan and Syria, Shoop said. In Syria, the aircraft also helped assess the damage done by coalition airstrikes in bad weather because the F-35's radar is far better than the F/A-18 Hornets' sensors. Neither Syrian or Russian air defenses attempted to engage the F-35Bs during the missions against ISIS, he said. "We would see Russian airplanes airborne as well as Syrian, but everyone maintained their lines of de-confliction that were set up prior," Shoop said.

Overall, the F-35 exceeded expectations during its first deployment, Shoop said. The squadron was able to keep 75 percent of its aircraft operational at all times, allowing it to "fly pretty much at will." All of the F-35 pilots were awarded air medals because of the high number of combat missions they flew, said Col. Chandler Nelms, commanding officer of the 13th MEU.

 

[DrainBamage]

Gee didnt they declare it combat rdy yet they cant even send on a gravy run against isis

An example of why your puddle deep logic keeps coming back to bite you in the ass. You declare a plane combat ready and it doesn't just magically appear in theater of operations the next day, there are logistic and training needs that get filled in around standing up a combat squadron. When USMC had a ship ready, deployed a squadron to said ship, and had the ship in the ME they started using it in combat.

 

[DrainBamage]

More on the hangar queen:

Marine F-35s Dropped a Bunch of Bombs on ISIS During 1st Middle East Deployment

The Marine Corps' F-35B Joint Strike Fighters led a big part of the campaign to demolish Islamic State terrorists in recent months, outpacing the combat flight hours flown by older aircraft on past deployments by 2-to-1. Members of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 flew 1,200 combat hours over Iraq and Syria, "making up a considerable portion of the ordnance that was dropping in theater," said Col. Chandler Nelms, commander of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit. "They were very active and did very well," he told Military.com. "As the MEU commander, anytime I see aircraft flying that much, I get concerned about what the breaking point is going to be. But there's no breaking point with these guys; they just crushed it."

The Marines spent more than seven months deployed to the Pacific and Middle East. The F-35B detachment was assigned to the 13th MEU, which operated from aboard the amphibious assault ship Essex. It was the first time the Marine Corps' variant of the stealth jet, which can take off and land vertically, deployed to the Middle East. The F-35B's first combat strike was in Afghanistan in September, where the Marine pilots were flying close-air support missions, said Lt. Col. Kyle Shoop, VMFA-211's commanding officer. From there, they flew more than 50 days' worth of close-air support and defensive counter-air missions in Iraq and Syria.

"Every day, [the pilots] were supporting over six hours of time in theater," Shoop said. The Marines were prepared for a higher-level fight had they been provoked by other actors in the region, he added. Their encounters with pilots from Russia, which is supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces, were minimal though, he said. "We were aware they were airborne," Shoop said. "There are some established de-conflictions that are already set up between Russian and U.S. forces. They were all adhered to, but we were aware."

The F-35Bs were able to give troops on the ground more information than would have been possible in the AV-8B Harrier jump jet, which the Joint Strike Fighter will eventually replace. Its sensors are better in poor weather, Shoop said. The Marines ended up flying the F-35B about twice as much as the Harrier flew on past deployments, Nelms said. "A conservative estimate is the F-35 flew 100 percent more hours on this deployment than a typical deployment for a Harrier squadron," he said. "When you consider that their readiness was 75 percent or better ... while doubling the amount of flight hours being flown, it's a real testament to the aircraft and the maintainers."

 

[Daryl Hunt]

More on the hangar queen:

Marine F-35s Dropped a Bunch of Bombs on ISIS During 1st Middle East Deployment

The Marine Corps' F-35B Joint Strike Fighters led a big part of the campaign to demolish Islamic State terrorists in recent months, outpacing the combat flight hours flown by older aircraft on past deployments by 2-to-1. Members of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 flew 1,200 combat hours over Iraq and Syria, "making up a considerable portion of the ordnance that was dropping in theater," said Col. Chandler Nelms, commander of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit. "They were very active and did very well," he told Military.com. "As the MEU commander, anytime I see aircraft flying that much, I get concerned about what the breaking point is going to be. But there's no breaking point with these guys; they just crushed it."

The Marines spent more than seven months deployed to the Pacific and Middle East. The F-35B detachment was assigned to the 13th MEU, which operated from aboard the amphibious assault ship Essex. It was the first time the Marine Corps' variant of the stealth jet, which can take off and land vertically, deployed to the Middle East. The F-35B's first combat strike was in Afghanistan in September, where the Marine pilots were flying close-air support missions, said Lt. Col. Kyle Shoop, VMFA-211's commanding officer. From there, they flew more than 50 days' worth of close-air support and defensive counter-air missions in Iraq and Syria.

"Every day, [the pilots] were supporting over six hours of time in theater," Shoop said. The Marines were prepared for a higher-level fight had they been provoked by other actors in the region, he added. Their encounters with pilots from Russia, which is supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces, were minimal though, he said. "We were aware they were airborne," Shoop said. "There are some established de-conflictions that are already set up between Russian and U.S. forces. They were all adhered to, but we were aware."

The F-35Bs were able to give troops on the ground more information than would have been possible in the AV-8B Harrier jump jet, which the Joint Strike Fighter will eventually replace. Its sensors are better in poor weather, Shoop said. The Marines ended up flying the F-35B about twice as much as the Harrier flew on past deployments, Nelms said. "A conservative estimate is the F-35 flew 100 percent more hours on this deployment than a typical deployment for a Harrier squadron," he said. "When you consider that their readiness was 75 percent or better ... while doubling the amount of flight hours being flown, it's a real testament to the aircraft and the maintainers."

75% is pretty damned good for any combat bird. And that means the F-35B was flying multiple mission per day. The A could have done a bit better but you dance with the gal that brung ya. And the F-35B is more complicated than the A so I would say that better than a 75% sortie rate speaks volumes. That's better than the F-18, F-22 and F-16. It's right up there with the F-15.

 

[DrainBamage]

Info on block 4 upgrade here: Keeping the F-35 Ahead of the Bad Guys

Summary:
- Starting in April 2019, then continuing 6 month cycles
- 80% software, built on TR3 baseline which can be completed for a squadron in a couple days
- Radar and electro-optical upgrades
- Electronic attack upgrades
- Sensor upgrades are focused on expansion of maritime capabilities
- Various weapons for foreign partners including ASRAAM, Meteor, Naval Strike Missile, and SOM
- SDB2 for leading edge anti-armor capability
- JSOW-C1 for USN's internally carried antiship weapon

SBD2 is biggest capability leap here IMO. F-35 can carry 8 internally so a flight of four F-35s could take out up to 32 main battle tanks from standoff range in contested airspace. Will also reduce need to carry wing mounted ordnance in CAS role.

 

[DrainBamage]

and US Navy finally goes IOC....

F-35C Achieves Initial Operational Capability
SAN DIEGO (NNS) -- The Commander, Naval Air Forces and the U.S. Marine Corps Deputy Commandant for Aviation jointly announced that the aircraft carrier variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35C Lightning II, met all requirements and achieved Initial Operational Capability (IOC). The Feb. 28 announcement comes shortly after the Department of the Navy’s first F-35C squadron, Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 147, completed aircraft carrier qualifications aboard USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70) and received Safe-For-Flight Operations Certification.

In order to declare IOC, the first operational squadron must be properly manned, trained and equipped to conduct assigned missions in support of fleet operations. This includes having 10 Block 3F, F-35C aircraft, requisite spare parts, support equipment, tools, technical publications, training programs and a functional Autonomic Logistic Information System (ALIS). Additionally, the ship that supports the first squadron must possess the proper infrastructure, qualifications and certifications. Lastly, the Joint Program Office, industry, and Naval Aviation must demonstrate that all procedures, processes and policies are in place to sustain operations.

“The F-35C is ready for operations, ready for combat and ready to win,” said Commander Naval Air Forces, Vice Admiral DeWolfe Miller. “We are adding an incredible weapon system into the arsenal of our Carrier Strike Groups that significantly enhances the capability of the joint force.”

 

[DrainBamage]

Given all three variants are now in service, hundreds of hours of combat missions in the Middle East, costs continue to drop, reliability rates going up, dominance in exercises, and production rates expanding every year, let's tip our hats to Manonthestreet for some of his wonderful wisdom in this thread

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

Nope, it isn't getting shitcanned they will build over 100 more in 2019.

Instead we're busy playing a very expensive catch-up game in reverse, to the point of building entire capital ships that cannot even exchange data with let alone operate the very fighter aircraft they were specifically designed for!

With Navy going IOC and USMC using F-35Bs off amphibs you aren't using the word "operate" correctly.

They are going to have to retro all you small carriers or just convert them to drone and choppers.. Cost for this program is going to sink the navy by itself

Carriers are being converted , F-35s are flying off them, and US Navy has not sunk by itself.

No it doesnt........they made parade around a few on a ship for rube food......be assured they have zero capability except parade value

According to a USMC Colonel they have dropped a large share of the ordnance in the Middle East. That is not zero capability.

Wow...can you imagine how quickly your air wing would be inoperable under real conditions.....thing might only be good for pretty pictures and wasting money.

75% in combat operations for F-35B, they were able to get twice as many hours as they could with Harriers.

F-35 days are numbered

They are on scheduled to produce 130 in 2019.

Manonthestreet... never go full retard...

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Given all three variants are now in service, hundreds of hours of combat missions in the Middle East, costs continue to drop, reliability rates going up, dominance in exercises, and production rates expanding every year, let's tip our hats to Manonthestreet for some of his wonderful wisdom in this thread

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

Nope, it isn't getting shitcanned they will build over 100 more in 2019.

Instead we're busy playing a very expensive catch-up game in reverse, to the point of building entire capital ships that cannot even exchange data with let alone operate the very fighter aircraft they were specifically designed for!

With Navy going IOC and USMC using F-35Bs off amphibs you aren't using the word "operate" correctly.

They are going to have to retro all you small carriers or just convert them to drone and choppers.. Cost for this program is going to sink the navy by itself

Carriers are being converted , F-35s are flying off them, and US Navy has not sunk by itself.

No it doesnt........they made parade around a few on a ship for rube food......be assured they have zero capability except parade value

According to a USMC Colonel they have dropped a large share of the ordnance in the Middle East. That is not zero capability.

Wow...can you imagine how quickly your air wing would be inoperable under real conditions.....thing might only be good for pretty pictures and wasting money.

75% in combat operations for F-35B, they were able to get twice as many hours as they could with Harriers.

F-35 days are numbered

They are on scheduled to produce 130 in 2019.

Manonthestreet... never go full retard...

Glad the C model is finally going IOC. The old F-18C/Ds are just plain wore out and parts are getting hard to come by. If they can keep the 75% sortie rate going on the C like the B or higher, that means the C will be one of the highest sortie rate birds in the inventory. The Navy won't have to depend on the few B models the Marines have to get their Naval Weapons out to some real ridiculous ranges. And they can take some of the weight off the F-18Gs. Makes bagging a Naval Ship a lot harder when the weapon gets picked up at 1000 miles by the C. And no, boyobreath, the C doesn't have to be out 1000 miles to see 1000 miles and direct fire. Can wait to see what the C model does during a Top Gun. It should be as impressive as the As and Bs that have been involved in the Red Flags.