F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

Swarms are being prepared. Big, valuable targets are strategically passé. Targets have to get smaller or be able to disappear. Attack is reaching a point of superiority over defense. Only superior swarms might work.
"Mr. President,...Mr. President, we must not allow a mine-shaft gap!
Air Force awards 'Gray Wolf' networked missile contract -- Defense Systems
USAF Wants Swarms of Cheap "Gray Wolf" Cruise Missiles That Can Overwhelm Enemy Defenses

Dude it's a "science and technology" project, not some harbinger of end of platforms that would launch them. I get you're all enamored with the cheap swarm thing, but I don't think you've given much thought to practical application just some vague notion of something that appeals to you. Did you see the part in your link where they talk about using B-52s, F-15Es, F-35s, etc. to launch them or did you just gloss over that part and imagine some inexpensive wonder-weapon that flies 5,000 miles on it's own with a warp drive powered by dlithium crystals?

A networked missile is nothing new, see LRASM.

The LRASM is operational. It's operation on the B-1 at this time but is programed come online with the F-18 this year. meaning, the F-35 as well. I don't see the B-1 to be the major carrier of it since the range of the missile is limited to no more than 300 miles and that also limits the F-18 but it sounds like it's ideal for subs and the F-35.

A followon is coming in 2024. I imagine that a smaller version will be introduced for the F-35 that it can carry internally but so far, it will have to be carried externally making the existing platform not really ready for prime time. Swarm weapons are coming butt they just aren't quite there yet.

 

[there4eyeM]

Don't underestimate the enemy's imagination and inventiveness.

 

[DrainBamage]

Don't underestimate the enemy's imagination and inventiveness.

Of course not, but vague platitudes about the enemy and fantasies about swarm technology don't qualify your belief that building a capable fighter plane to replace the ones we have now that are starting to age is a poor idea.

 

[DrainBamage]

The LRASM is operational. It's operation on the B-1 at this time but is programed come online with the F-18 this year. meaning, the F-35 as well.

Operational on F-18 is not same as F-35. I'm sure it'll eventually be available on F-35 with a future update but right now there is nowhere on F-35 weapons timeline that includes LRASM. Block 5 update in early 2020s maybe.

Then again... who cares? There will be Super Hornet squadrons on carriers well into the 2030s so they will always have F-18s to act as a missile trucks. Use the F-35 as a sensor platform, even internally carry AARGM-ER while the Super Bugs sling LRASMs from a hundred miles away.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Don't underestimate the enemy's imagination and inventiveness.

The majority of the "Enemies" imagination and inventiveness is stolen from the US and it's Allies. If we are having troubles doing it, chances are, so are they. When we have a break through, chances are, they will later because they will steal it later on.

 

[DrainBamage]

Interview with F-35 pilot, hilariously he seems to be talking directly to our resident swallower-of-myths-via-blog ManOnTheStreet in first question from excerpt below. This will no doubt be yet another opinion by someone who actually flies the plane (as opposed to blogs by folks who don't leave their basements) that will be dismissed at propaganda and lies by a pilot who's part of the international and cross service conspiracy by USAF, USMC, Norway, UK, etc. to carry out a massive coverup.

Interview with a British F-35B Lightning II pilot: Semper Fidelis to Semper Paratus


What were your first impressions of the F-35B?
Technologically mind-blowing and a true engineering marvel. As a pilot it flies extremely smoothly and the handling is exceptional, especially when converting flight regimes to slow speed or jet-borne modes; that transition is almost imperceptibly smooth with no adverse characteristics. High angle-of-attack manoeuvring is very easy and forgiving, with excellent nose and flight control ‘authority’ throughout. Power is very apparent with impressive acceleration in dry power on take-off.

Which three words would you use to describe the F-35B?
Lethal; Game-changing (I consider that one word!); Growth.

What are the greatest myths about the F-35B?
That it isn’t operational; that stealth doesn’t ‘work’; that external stores on F-35 defeats the point of its design.

What are the best and worst things about the aircraft?
The best thing is how quickly and effectively the F-35 allows the pilot to make decisions – fusing sensor and other data from onboard and off-board sources to display what’s out there and what’s going on. Worst thing? I’d like a bit more fuel but what pilot doesn’t?!

How good is the situational awareness compared to other aircraft you have flown and how does that change things?
Nothing compares to it. Nothing. And information changes everything. When you look at Boyd’s well-known OODA loop, traditionally the hardest things are to answer ‘what’s out there’, ‘what’s it doing’, ‘what do I need to do’. That decision loop can cause paralysis which can lead to a quick demise in a combat fight. F-35 helps enormously in this regard and allows the pilot to act rather than react – reacting is what we’ll make the enemy do. Constantly.

How would you rate its BVR capabilities?
Second to none really. First to see is first to shoot, is first to kill. I recently heard a comment from someone that ‘…fighting the F-35 is like going into a boxing match and your opponent doesn’t even know you’re in the ring yet!’ I like that comment because our lethality is enhanced by being able to deliver the killer or knock-out blow to our opponents before they get enough awareness on what’s going on to prepare or do something about it.

How would you rate its ground attack and recce abilities compared to the GR4 or Typhoon?
We only have Paveway IV currently, however this will expand with SPEAR 3 and other weapons in future but the single weapon option is a bit of a limitation of sorts right now, even though PWIV is an excellent weapon that’s proven itself against our enemies time and again. There is also potential for UK to procure the GAU-22/A Gun Pod if needs be and the USMC have already employed it. The variety of recce options on F-35 are good – from EOTS (IR) to DAS, to Radar Mapping, we have a true all-weather and, in many cases, multi-spectral recce capability. However, F-35 isn’t a dedicated “recce” platform so you can perhaps understand why there’s no pod like the RAPTor on Tornado as an example.

 

[DrainBamage]

When pilots talk of strengths of different fighters they usually credit the F-18 with superior angle-of-attack, which is far more useful than top speed and often more useful than turn radius. Same praise has been expressed for F-35, seen in this absolutely ridiculous footage:

 

[westwall]

When pilots talk of strengths of different fighters they usually credit the F-18 with superior angle-of-attack, which is far more useful than top speed and often more useful than turn radius. Same praise has been expressed for F-35, seen in this absolutely ridiculous footage:

F-22 did it first, and better.




or if you want to hit the waaaay back machine the SU-27 is pretty impressive too. Over 25 years ago!

 

[Dan Stubbs]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

I will tell you what. Put the A 10 up against the F 35 or the F 22 the the Wart Hog will blow them out of the sky.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

The Fly Boy love their "
Hot Rods" but the don't really do the job that is needed. Fast yes but We guys on the ground don't trust them. To much "Friendly" fire.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

When pilots talk of strengths of different fighters they usually credit the F-18 with superior angle-of-attack, which is far more useful than top speed and often more useful than turn radius. Same praise has been expressed for F-35, seen in this absolutely ridiculous footage:

F-22 did it first, and better.




or if you want to hit the waaaay back machine the SU-27 is pretty impressive too. Over 25 years ago!

All it proves is that your bird is well balanced. Nothing more. The Cobra Manuever is worthless in combat. Right after you do it, you are left helpless. You have lost everything. At that point, a SE-5 can take you out. This is another reason the SU-35 isn't the terror it's suppose to be. If it uses it's vector thrust to out do, say, a F-15 then it's going to left hanging in the air and the F-15s wingman will easily take it out. After learning this, the F-15EX and CX became viable again and will be in the 2020 Military Budget.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

I will tell you what. Put the A 10 up against the F 35 or the F 22 the the Wart Hog will blow them out of the sky.

WE did a little test on air to air using an A-7D versus an A-10A. Once the lessons were learned, the A-7 could take the A-10 out 100% of the time with just it's gun. Until that lesson was learned, the A-10 did win. But after the tactics were learned, the A-10 proved to be worthless as an Air to Air fighter for anything that can go transonic or higher every time with either guns or missiles. If you are going gun to gun, you do have to treat that A-10 gun with lots and lots of respect but there are ways to take it out. The gun doesn't fire too well when the bird that's around it is falling to the earth.

 

[DrainBamage]

F-22 did it first, and better.

That is exactly what it reminded me of, the F-22 routine in airshows.

 

[DrainBamage]

The Fly Boy love their "
Hot Rods" but the don't really do the job that is needed. Fast yes but We guys on the ground don't trust them. To much "Friendly" fire.

A-10 warplane tops list for friendly-fire deaths

A-10 warplane tops list for friendly-fire deaths
WASHINGTON — The Air Force A-10 attack jet has killed more U.S. troops in friendly fire incidents and more Afghan civilians than any other aircraft flown by the U.S. military, according to data declassified and obtained by USA TODAY. ... Since 2001, the A-10 has been involved in four friendly fire incidents that killed 10 U.S. troops. The next highest is the B-1B bomber, which killed five soldiers last year in one incident. Friendly fire deaths are exceptionally rare. There have been 45 total friendly fire incidents out of about 140,000 missions flown by the Air Force, Navy and Marines.The A-10 is the aircraft responsible for the most civilian deaths in Afghanistan since 2010, when data on those deaths started to be collected. Thirty-five people have been killed compared with 19 killed by the Harrier, data show.


When you're talking four incidents out of 140k sorties it's really statistically insignificant IMO, bottom line in the modern era friendly fire incidents are extremely rare and anyone claiming "too much friendly fire" as a knock on any of the CAS platforms is talking out of their ass.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Fly Boy love their "
Hot Rods" but the don't really do the job that is needed. Fast yes but We guys on the ground don't trust them. To much "Friendly" fire.

A-10 warplane tops list for friendly-fire deaths

A-10 warplane tops list for friendly-fire deaths
WASHINGTON — The Air Force A-10 attack jet has killed more U.S. troops in friendly fire incidents and more Afghan civilians than any other aircraft flown by the U.S. military, according to data declassified and obtained by USA TODAY. ... Since 2001, the A-10 has been involved in four friendly fire incidents that killed 10 U.S. troops. The next highest is the B-1B bomber, which killed five soldiers last year in one incident. Friendly fire deaths are exceptionally rare. There have been 45 total friendly fire incidents out of about 140,000 missions flown by the Air Force, Navy and Marines.The A-10 is the aircraft responsible for the most civilian deaths in Afghanistan since 2010, when data on those deaths started to be collected. Thirty-five people have been killed compared with 19 killed by the Harrier, data show.


When you're talking four incidents out of 140k sorties it's really statistically insignificant IMO, bottom line in the modern era friendly fire incidents are extremely rare and anyone claiming "too much friendly fire" as a knock on any of the CAS platforms is talking out of their ass.

When things get too close, they call in the AC-130 that can do pinpoint accuracy.

 

[DrainBamage]

Pinpoint is a relative term, but it would be interesting to know the CEP of the 105 on an AC-130 versus a modern PGM like an Small Diameter Bomb. I'm not doubting the 105 is more accurate since I have no idea, but clearly an aircraft flying thousands of feet up that is aiming by going in a slow circle tilted at a certain degree has plenty of variables in the accuracy equation as well. At the very least the 105 would be a lot cheaper per shot than dropping PGMs.

AC-130 is interesting in how much they play around with the weapons, probably because of the relatively small fleet size and more agile control by Special Operations Command instead of the more bloated USAF acquisition. They took off the two 20s and added a 25mm cannon. Then they replaced the 25mm and 40mm with two 30mm cannons, then changed their mind when new fire control system allowed higher altitude and went back to the 25 and 40. They have versions without the 105, they've tinkered with Viper Strike or Griffin PGMs from the cargo bay, everything from SDBs to Hellfires to APKWS to JDAMs on the wing rails.

The latest thing they've been enamored with is GBU-69, which is a small glide weapon that is laser guided like APKWS (I think it uses same seeker) but packs a much bigger (36lb blast frag) punch since no wasted space on engine/fuel like with Hellfire and APKWS. SOCOM has contracted to acquire about 1,000 per year so they've clearly decided this is their PGM for the AC-130.

GBU-69:

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Pinpoint is a relative term, but it would be interesting to know the CEP of the 105 on an AC-130 versus a modern PGM like an Small Diameter Bomb. I'm not doubting the 105 is more accurate since I have no idea, but clearly an aircraft flying thousands of feet up that is aiming by going in a slow circle tilted at a certain degree has plenty of variables in the accuracy equation as well. At the very least the 105 would be a lot cheaper per shot than dropping PGMs.

AC-130 is interesting in how much they play around with the weapons, probably because of the relatively small fleet size and more agile control by Special Operations Command instead of the more bloated USAF acquisition. They took off the two 20s and added a 25mm cannon. Then they replaced the 25mm and 40mm with two 30mm cannons, then changed their mind when new fire control system allowed higher altitude and went back to the 25 and 40. They have versions without the 105, they've tinkered with Viper Strike or Griffin PGMs from the cargo bay, everything from SDBs to Hellfires to APKWS to JDAMs on the wing rails.

The latest thing they've been enamored with is GBU-69, which is a small glide weapon that is laser guided like APKWS (I think it uses same seeker) but packs a much bigger (36lb blast frag) punch since no wasted space on engine/fuel like with Hellfire and APKWS. SOCOM has contracted to acquire about 1,000 per year so they've clearly decided this is their PGM for the AC-130.

GBU-69:

If you can operate a squadron of A-10s then you can operate one AC-130 and have the same firepower. Except the pinpoint accuracy will be much better. And the enemy on the ground will only know something is blowing them up one at a time whether it's a building, Tank, Troop Carrier, Jeep, Toyota Pickup or people running for their lives. There are a few mixes of weapons. One model carries two 25mm, two 40mms and one 105. Another carries two 30mms and one 105 and possibly the weapon you have mentioned including Hellfires.

The newest is the Ghost Rider. Precision Strike Package with 30mm and 105mm cannons and Standoff Precision Guided Munitions (i.e. GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb and AGM-176 Griffin missile).

The AC hits within about 5 feet from center. Of course, it's going to take a lot more out than a 5 foot circle in most cases. And can elect to do area affect as well. The new J model costs 115 mil a copy which is down from the W version that is aging that originally cost 135 mil a copy.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

I will tell you what. Put the A 10 up against the F 35 or the F 22 the the Wart Hog will blow them out of the sky.

WE did a little test on air to air using an A-7D versus an A-10A. Once the lessons were learned, the A-7 could take the A-10 out 100% of the time with just it's gun. Until that lesson was learned, the A-10 did win. But after the tactics were learned, the A-10 proved to be worthless as an Air to Air fighter for anything that can go transonic or higher every time with either guns or missiles. If you are going gun to gun, you do have to treat that A-10 gun with lots and lots of respect but there are ways to take it out. The gun doesn't fire too well when the bird that's around it is falling to the earth.

BTW, this was done after the A-7 lost the flyoff. If the flyoff had been extended, the A-7 would have routinely downed the A-10. But with a one day flyoff head to head, there was no learning curve and the 30mm won that fight. The A-10 was just along for the ride. Once the proper angle of attack was learned and the proper entry speed was learned, the A-7 could avoid the big gun every time and whittle away with it's 20mm canon until the A-10 could no longer fly. Plus, the A-10 could not disengage since it was over 200 mph slower. It was in the fight win or lose. The A-7 could disengage any time the pilot wished. The best bird did not win the flyoff.

 

[DrainBamage]

The AC hits within about 5 feet from center.

What exactly does this mean in terms of CEP, anything can hit within 5 feet from center it's more about how often it does so given a set of shots. Is there any source for CEP of the 105 on AC-130 versus PGMs, I'd be really interested.

 

[Likkmee]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Waste of money. We have ICBM's. Scrap the rest and close all foreign bases.