Dole, Kerry, McCain

[whitehall]

all were vets who lost to people who didn't serve or rwere in the NG.
Is there some significance in that????

Add George Bush Sr. The genuine WW2 hero was defeated for a 2nd term by a draft dodger who demonstrated against his own Country in a foreign land. I recall that the Clinton campaign managed to portray Bush as a "wimp". Anything is possible when you have the total support of the media.

 

[jillian]

Thats also the biggest reason why the disconnect between the civilian sector and Military/Veterans/Retirees etc is growing.

i agree. and it might have something to do with the high suicide rate among vets.

but i digress.

It does, the unemployment rate for Vets is much higher than regular civies also.

does that take into consideration the injuries suffered by the vets? or does it only consider those vets who aren't injured.

 

[whitehall]

Politicians who run on their Military records need to understand that their Military records will be the subject of legitimate scrutiny. Kerry found that out the hard way. General MacArthur was once the designated republican presidential candidate until a ground swell of Korean War Veterans interfered with the nomination. That's the way the system works. On the other hand the anti-war antics of political candidates should also be the subject of media scrutiny.

 

[regent]

Politicians who run on their Military records need to understand that their Military records will be the subject of legitimate scrutiny. Kerry found that out the hard way. General MacArthur was once the designated republican presidential candidate until a ground swell of Korean War Veterans interfered with the nomination. That's the way the system works. On the other hand the anti-war antics of political candidates should also be the subject of media scrutiny.

I would suspect that it was not just Korean vets that objected to MacArthur but vets of WWII as well. I remember "Stick with Mac and never get back." or "Move over God, it's me Mac," and it was not, we shall return, but I shall return.
But fortunately the Republicans of that era had better sense in selecting presidential candidates. As for questions for presidential candidates nothing pertinant to the office should be "off limits" to questions?

 

[whitehall]

Politicians who run on their Military records need to understand that their Military records will be the subject of legitimate scrutiny. Kerry found that out the hard way. General MacArthur was once the designated republican presidential candidate until a ground swell of Korean War Veterans interfered with the nomination. That's the way the system works. On the other hand the anti-war antics of political candidates should also be the subject of media scrutiny.

I would suspect that it was not just Korean vets that objected to MacArthur but vets of WWII as well. I remember "Stick with Mac and never get back." or "Move over God, it's me Mac," and it was not, we shall return, but I shall return.
But fortunately the Republicans of that era had better sense in selecting presidential candidates. As for questions for presidential candidates nothing pertinant to the office should be "off limits" to questions?

That's true Regent. It was hard to hide the fact that MacArthur was finally relieved of duty but the media managed to organize a ticker tape parade for him even though his tactics turned hard won victory in a year in Korea into a three year hardship and a humiliating truce after we lost 35,000 Troops. Even though the entire media was practically a part of the FDR/Truman administration Americans still knew the truth.

 

[Sallow]

all were vets who lost to people who didn't serve or rwere in the NG.
Is there some significance in that????

They all had higher favorability ratings then Romney..

 

[The Gadfly]

The topic was the NG people who found cushy positions in the US at the period of the Vietnam War, a period I lived through.
But go ahead with typical knee-jerk reactions.

And you should thank me for giving you the opportunity to use (again) some of your favorite, hackneyed insult names.

Bullshit! D Co, 151st Infantry (Indiana National Guard), served with distinction as LRRP Co. with II Field Force, RVN. These and other National Guardsmen DID in fact serve in Vietnam, and some gave their lives there. Now, where did you serve? I was humping a ruck in I Corps myself (attached to the 101, when we went back to the A Shau Valley), and I don't disparage National Guard troops. Neither do most Vietnam vets I know.Over there or back at home, they did their job, so we could do ours. We were all on the same team-those of us who served in combat, and those who served elsewhere.

On another note, I don't particularly appreciate John Kerry, who turned on his fellow vets and accused us of supposed "war crimes" that never even occurred.

 

[there4eyeM]

Clinton demonstrated against his country?

A typical misinterpretation on the part of so-called patriots who did not and do not understand life, history or intelligent democratic functions.

The demonstrations were anti-war, not anti-American. Desiring to improve one's country cannot be condemned.

As for war crimes, the US itself set standards at Nuremberg. Reading them might make some people uncomfortable.

 

[The Gadfly]

Clinton demonstrated against his country?

A typical misinterpretation on the part of so-called patriots who did not and do not understand life, history or intelligent democratic functions.

The demonstrations were anti-war, not anti-American. Desiring to improve one's country cannot be condemned.

As for war crimes, the US itself set standards at Nuremberg. Reading them might make some people uncomfortable.

!. Demonstrating against your own country while on foreign soil is not designed and/or intended to undermine its foreign policy, or the efforts of your countrymen who are engaged in battle at the time? I suppose Jane Fonda was trying to "improve" America too? I don't think so. There's a clear difference between "desiring to improve(whatever THAT means) one's country", and committing treason. Hanoi Jane is as guilty of the latter as Tokyo Rose, IMO. Then again, I don't happen to believe that attempting to foment a communist revolt in America represents any attempt to "improve" my country; you may feel otherwise.

2. We and our allies went to some excesses at Nuremberg, and not everything we did there was either wise or just. We learned from that, and were somewhat less harsh in our judgement of the Japanese. This is not an original thought, and there are a number of historical commentaries on the subject. Nonetheless, I know what those standards are, and they only make me uncomfortable in regard to how they were applied to some of the German defendants at Nuremberg. Justice should not be confused with vengeance. If you are referring to Vietnam, I never deliberately killed non-combatant civilians, never saw anyone else do it, and never was ordered to do it. Did we accidentally kill some? Yes; that is the inevitable byproduct of a war where an enemy who does not wear a uniform fights among a civilian population. Did we kill "civilians" who were armed and/or carrying munitions? Damn right, and I make no apologies for that! (Such an enemy is NOT a lawful combatant, and forfeits any right to protections afforded by the Geneva Conventions). I suggest YOU read those, carefully, before you start talking about supposed "war crimes". Incidentally, My Lai was NOT "business as usual"; WO Hugh Thompson's report and subsequent testimony clearly reveals that to have been an anomalous event.

3. Where in Vietnam did YOU serve? What "war crimes" did you personally observe/have first-hand knowledge of (as opposed to "heard that someone said, that he heard from a buddy, that someone saw", "I've been told", or "read in some newspaper, magazine or book". I ask, because I want to know what relevant experience you personally have, from which to discuss the matter. Please tell us, so that we may assign to your opinion the weight it deserves.

 

[High_Gravity]

i suspect the value of military service is generational. right now, only about 1% of our population serves in the military. the percentage was much higher in my fathers day.

Thats also the biggest reason why the disconnect between the civilian sector and Military/Veterans/Retirees etc is growing.

Yep, and leads to the president not caring that his new tax will hit military retirees first. Cannot get much lower than that.

The Military retirees are an easy target because of that growing disconnect, with only 1% of the population in the Military most people don't give a rats ass.

 

[High_Gravity]

i agree. and it might have something to do with the high suicide rate among vets.

but i digress.

It does, the unemployment rate for Vets is much higher than regular civies also.

does that take into consideration the injuries suffered by the vets? or does it only consider those vets who aren't injured.

Well last time I checked the unemployment rate for Vets was about 13%, not sure if they take into consideration the injuries or not.

 

[The Gadfly]

It does, the unemployment rate for Vets is much higher than regular civies also.

does that take into consideration the injuries suffered by the vets? or does it only consider those vets who aren't injured.

Well last time I checked the unemployment rate for Vets was about 13%, not sure if they take into consideration the injuries or not.

Lots of young vets out there who cant find jobs (even with more organizations trying to help, with everything from classes on resume writing and interviewing skills to placement assistance and job fairs). To make matters worse, too many of our National Guard troops are coming home from deployment to find their job is NOT waiting for them (yes, there are legal ways for employers to do that). The old myth that combat vets are "ticking time bombs" because they might have PTSD is making the rounds again too-damn, some things just never change! These kids get a warm, flag-waving "Welcome Home!"-and then, some people are willing to stereotype them, and screw them over like they did us forty years ago.

 

[there4eyeM]

"There you go again..."

Against the war. The America that wanted the war was also in conflict with a very large part that did not want it. Anti-'Thatamerica' then.

 

[High_Gravity]

does that take into consideration the injuries suffered by the vets? or does it only consider those vets who aren't injured.

Well last time I checked the unemployment rate for Vets was about 13%, not sure if they take into consideration the injuries or not.

Lots of young vets out there who cant find jobs (even with more organizations trying to help, with everything from classes on resume writing and interviewing skills to placement assistance and job fairs). To make matters worse, too many of our National Guard troops are coming home from deployment to find their job is NOT waiting for them (yes, there are legal ways for employers to do that). The old myth that combat vets are "ticking time bombs" because they might have PTSD is making the rounds again too-damn, some things just never change! These kids get a warm, flag-waving "Welcome Home!"-and then, some people are willing to stereotype them, and screw them over like they did us forty years ago.

Oh you pretty much nailed it, alot of employers don't want to deal with the "baggage" a Veteran may bring to the table such as PTSD. Not to mention people who are against the war will never hire a Veteran regardless of their mental status.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

all were vets who lost to people who didn't serve or rwere in the NG.
Is there some significance in that????

Technically, Bush was a veteran. And I'd note that almost all veterans felt that Kerry dishonorably served.

Dole had his chances wrecked by Perot, but he may have still lost against an incumbent not in the midst of a recession. The worst of the Clinton scandals hit into his second term.

McCain was viewed as Bush III and the Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac was falsely attributed to Bush when it was the Dems doing. Also, the nation was in the midst of I have to vote for the black rock star dude.

To answer your question, I feel like the candidate's veteran status only helped them (except for Kerry b/c he dishonorably served).

 

[old navy]

Thats also the biggest reason why the disconnect between the civilian sector and Military/Veterans/Retirees etc is growing.

Yep, and leads to the president not caring that his new tax will hit military retirees first. Cannot get much lower than that.

The Military retirees are an easy target because of that growing disconnect, with only 1% of the population in the Military most people don't give a rats ass.

And of that 1%, less than 20 percent of people who serve actually retire from the miltary. Much of the citizenry believes that every veteran receives a check for life and free heath care. That is not even close to the truth. People decide early in life to get out and start a career or stay for 20 plus years and become the backbone of world freedom. The prospect of starting over at average age 40 without retirement benefits and healthcare would make people get out after their minimal required obligation. No other military in the world has a career military force as qualified as ours. Threatening that national treasure also threatens national security.

 

[High_Gravity]

Yep, and leads to the president not caring that his new tax will hit military retirees first. Cannot get much lower than that.

The Military retirees are an easy target because of that growing disconnect, with only 1% of the population in the Military most people don't give a rats ass.

And of that 1%, less than 20 percent of people who serve actually retire from the miltary. Much of the citizenry believes that every veteran receives a check for life and free heath care. That is not even close to the truth. People decide early in life to get out and start a career or stay for 20 plus years and become the backbone of world freedom. The prospect of starting over at average age 40 without retirement benefits and healthcare makes people get out after their minimal required obligation. No other military in the world has a career military force as qualified as ours. Threatening that national treasure also threatens national security.

So many people don't see it that way. I agree with you but I have heard alot of people compare Military Retiree and Veterans benefits to welfare checks and food stamps, I have cussed out people on this very board who said so.

 

[old navy]

The Military retirees are an easy target because of that growing disconnect, with only 1% of the population in the Military most people don't give a rats ass.

And of that 1%, less than 20 percent of people who serve actually retire from the miltary. Much of the citizenry believes that every veteran receives a check for life and free heath care. That is not even close to the truth. People decide early in life to get out and start a career or stay for 20 plus years and become the backbone of world freedom. The prospect of starting over at average age 40 without retirement benefits and healthcare makes people get out after their minimal required obligation. No other military in the world has a career military force as qualified as ours. Threatening that national treasure also threatens national security.

So many people don't see it that way. I agree with you but I have heard alot of people compare Military Retiree and Veterans benefits to welfare checks and food stamps, I have cussed out people on this very board who said so.

yep, miitary beneifts are nothing but entitlements to some people. In reality, they are fulfilled promises from a grateful nation.

 

[there4eyeM]

"To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt..."

Monetary or otherwise.

 

[High_Gravity]

And of that 1%, less than 20 percent of people who serve actually retire from the miltary. Much of the citizenry believes that every veteran receives a check for life and free heath care. That is not even close to the truth. People decide early in life to get out and start a career or stay for 20 plus years and become the backbone of world freedom. The prospect of starting over at average age 40 without retirement benefits and healthcare makes people get out after their minimal required obligation. No other military in the world has a career military force as qualified as ours. Threatening that national treasure also threatens national security.

So many people don't see it that way. I agree with you but I have heard alot of people compare Military Retiree and Veterans benefits to welfare checks and food stamps, I have cussed out people on this very board who said so.

yep, miitary beneifts are nothing but entitlements to some people. In reality, they are fulfilled promises from a grateful nation.

Totally, but because so many people don't serve they don't understand that mentality, its foreign and alien to them. To many Military retirement checks are no different than welfare checks, and Veterans shouldn't get any benefits from the VA even if they are disabled because nobody forced them to sign up.