Does socialized medicine contribute to terrorism?

[hjmick]

I'll repeat the question: Does socialized medicine contribute to terrorism?

As most of us are aware, there was a recent attempt to set off a couple of car bombs in the U.K.

The eight people arrested in the case are from the medical profession. This gives the plan a completely different dimension than previous acts of terrorism in Britain.

The seven men are physicians, while the lone woman, the wife of one of them, is a medical technician. All of them from Middle Eastern countries or of Middle Eastern descent.

In Britain, the National Health Service relies on foreign doctors to meet staffing shortfalls. Of the nearly 239,000 doctors now registered with the General Medical Council, about 90,000 of them qualified in countries other than Britain. I have read that foreign doctors have been drawn to the NHS's relatively "generous" salaries and thorough standards of training.

With this knowledge in hand I am forced to ask, would these doctors have been in Britain if not for the opportunity afforded them through socialized medicine? They test a doctor's abilities and training, they check on their schooling and degrees, but how do you test their religious fervor?

 

[Toro]

This has to be the most reaching post I've read here yet.

 

[hjmick]

Do you really think it is that much of a stretch?

I mean, if not for the need to fill positions in their health care system, could you not speculate that the doctors arrested might be practicing their craft in Jordan or Lebanon rather than the British Isles?

 

[mattskramer]

Do you really think it is that much of a stretch?

I mean, if not for the need to fill positions in their health care system, could you not speculate that the doctors arrested might be practicing their craft in Jordan or Lebanon rather than the British Isles?

I'm confused. Why doesn't the UK hire UK citizens ?

 

[hjmick]

I'm confused. Why doesn't the UK hire UK citizens ?

The majority of doctors in the program are British citizens, but there seems to be a shortfall that requires they hire citizens from other nations. I don't know the reason for the shortfall.

 

[Angel Heart]

And explain the foreign Dr's in the US? There are MANY. I've served with several while stationed with a US Army Reserve Hospital in the 90's. We had mostly foreign Dr's.

 

[lieberalism]

This probably isnt the proper place, but medical training should become vocational. It is stupid to make potential doctors take 4 years of unrelated stuff to just get into med school. Let them take a 2 year pre-med sequence (the pre-med requirements within a degree take about 2 years) and then go right to med school. And for those that dont know, not every doctor is a biology or chem major in college. Art majors can apply to med school as long as they got the pre-med cores done in college, which as I said is only about 2 years of courses.
6 years is still a long time to make good doctors, plus they still have all the rotations/internships to get them to where they need to be.

 

[hjmick]

And explain the foreign Dr's in the US? There are MANY. I've served with several while stationed with a US Army Reserve Hospital in the 90's. We had mostly foreign Dr's.

I haven't given any thought to the U.S.

 

[Diuretic]

In answer to the question - no. A health system - socialised, single-payer or totally private needs doctors and I would assume that the system needs a certain amount of doctors and if they can't recruit them locally then they have to look elsewhere. Given it's in the UK having good English is necessary and I think these folks came mainly from Pakistan where the language is Urdu but English is a second language widely spoken and certainly in the professions it would be very widely used. The doctors might also come from other English-speaking countries. Just happens that of all the hundreds of overseas-trained doctors in the British system over the years, a half a dozen of them are Islamist nutters.

 

[hjmick]

In answer to the question - no. A health system - socialised, single-payer or totally private needs doctors and I would assume that the system needs a certain amount of doctors and if they can't recruit them locally then they have to look elsewhere. Given it's in the UK having good English is necessary and I think these folks came mainly from Pakistan where the language is Urdu but English is a second language widely spoken and certainly in the professions it would be very widely used. The doctors might also come from other English-speaking countries. Just happens that of all the hundreds of overseas-trained doctors in the British system over the years, a half a dozen of them are Islamist nutters.

Excellent point, thank you.

 

[Angel Heart]

In answer to the question - no. A health system - socialised, single-payer or totally private needs doctors and I would assume that the system needs a certain amount of doctors and if they can't recruit them locally then they have to look elsewhere. Given it's in the UK having good English is necessary and I think these folks came mainly from Pakistan where the language is Urdu but English is a second language widely spoken and certainly in the professions it would be very widely used. The doctors might also come from other English-speaking countries. Just happens that of all the hundreds of overseas-trained doctors in the British system over the years, a half a dozen of them are Islamist nutters.

ITA It has nothing to do with the type of health system. It's just as likely here out of our health system.

 

[Annie]

In answer to the question - no. A health system - socialised, single-payer or totally private needs doctors and I would assume that the system needs a certain amount of doctors and if they can't recruit them locally then they have to look elsewhere. Given it's in the UK having good English is necessary and I think these folks came mainly from Pakistan where the language is Urdu but English is a second language widely spoken and certainly in the professions it would be very widely used. The doctors might also come from other English-speaking countries. Just happens that of all the hundreds of overseas-trained doctors in the British system over the years, a half a dozen of them are Islamist nutters.

I hope you're correct, that they are now all under arrest and the threat is permanently over. Problem might be, the other day it was reported that the government knows they have extremists in police force and other vital services. They are investigating whether or not it was just a coincidence that those few doctors knew the staging area for disaster IF the first MB had blown at Tiger, Tiger. The staging area happened to be where the second MB was parked. BTW, it was said that doctors would NOT have been privy to that kind of info. So it was coincidence or something else.

 

[hjmick]

ITA It has nothing to do with the type of health system. It's just as likely here out of our health system.

I guess the point of my original question was, does the need to fill a certain number of positions in the NHS open the door for more "Islamic nutters" (I liked that one D) to get into the system? Diuretic's response answers my question, at least enough to make me think it makes no difference.

 

[Diuretic]

I hope you're correct, that they are now all under arrest and the threat is permanently over. Problem might be, the other day it was reported that the government knows they have extremists in police force and other vital services. They are investigating whether or not it was just a coincidence that those few doctors knew the staging area for disaster IF the first MB had blown at Tiger, Tiger. The staging area happened to be where the second MB was parked. BTW, it was said that doctors would NOT have been privy to that kind of info. So it was coincidence or something else.

It would be nice to think that everyone involved is in custody but even if they were it doesn't mean the threat is over does it? That's a rhetorical question btw and in a doleful tone. In the UK they're awake to the fact that this is going to go on for years or until the causal conditions (not going there, too complex and open to everyone's interpretation in any case) are finished so I suppose they'll just get on with business as usual. I would argue that it's a very good example of how law enforcement and government security can work together to lessen the threat and it's a model for the rest of us.

 

[Annie]

It would be nice to think that everyone involved is in custody but even if they were it doesn't mean the threat is over does it? That's a rhetorical question btw and in a doleful tone. In the UK they're awake to the fact that this is going to go on for years or until the causal conditions (not going there, too complex and open to everyone's interpretation in any case) are finished so I suppose they'll just get on with business as usual. I would argue that it's a very good example of how law enforcement and government security can work together to lessen the threat and it's a model for the rest of us.

I fail to see that law enforcement or government did anything to aid security. They got damn lucky the London bombs failed, picked up the clues they need to be minutes BEHIND the Glasgow bombers, then got aided by some citizens, that prevented worse from happening.

After 9/11 no one could have asked for more from police, fire, port security or government. But it as AFTER 3k+ died.

 

[Diuretic]

I fail to see that law enforcement or government did anything to aid security. They got damn lucky the London bombs failed, picked up the clues they need to be minutes BEHIND the Glasgow bombers, then got aided by some citizens, that prevented worse from happening.

After 9/11 no one could have asked for more from police, fire, port security or government. But it as AFTER 3k+ died.

In the UK domestic security is managed by MI5, the Special Branch and regular local police. I have no doubt that MI5 has prevented terrorist attacks but we just don't know about some of them. The ones we do know about where MI5 were involved we would know about because Special Branch would have made the arrests (MI5 doesn't have arrest powers). We've seen a case recently in London where terrorists have been convicted before atrocities were committed. That's what I was getting at. I was sort of reflecting more broadly about the nature of the fight against domestic terrorism in the UK.

There's no doubt that this one is down to good luck and I think the ambulance service had a couple of observant officers as well. And that's the other side of the coin - an alert citizenry.

 

[Annie]

In the UK domestic security is managed by MI5, the Special Branch and regular local police. I have no doubt that MI5 has prevented terrorist attacks but we just don't know about some of them. The ones we do know about where MI5 were involved we would know about because Special Branch would have made the arrests (MI5 doesn't have arrest powers). We've seen a case recently in London where terrorists have been convicted before atrocities were committed. That's what I was getting at. I was sort of reflecting more broadly about the nature of the fight against domestic terrorism in the UK.

There's no doubt that this one is down to good luck and I think the ambulance service had a couple of observant officers as well. And that's the other side of the coin - an alert citizenry.

I agree with all of what you wrote. If the terrorists stay with 'small scale' attacks, I'm sure nothing much more will happen, if there's dead, they'll cart them away. Sweep up and replace the glass. An attack that kills fewer than 200 or so, will not have much if any effect. If they manage something that really does go off like 9/11? Dunno, perhaps they'll still go back to 9/10.

 

[lieberalism]

any terrorist attack inside the us would cause an uproar. 200 dead on american soil would be like another 911 in terms of our response.

 

[Annie]

any terrorist attack inside the us would cause an uproar. 200 dead on american soil would be like another 911 in terms of our response.

Some people would be upset, but no large scale response. Same as USS Cole, etc.

 

[lieberalism]

Theres a huge difference between fake "us soil" like a ship overseas, and the actual American land.