Zone1 Do you get a lot of misogyny when you ditch MARY in your religion?

[notmyfault2020]

Hence my asking questions and not accusing you of anything. My problem with the CC, and quite frankly, a whole lot of other denominations as well, is when they add a lot of extra-Biblical requirements and give them authority equal to or greater than Scripture itself.

you mean like when Protestants add extra-Biblical things like:

Make Jesus your personal savior.

Those words are not in the Bible

How about the doctrine of You can never lose your salvation

Not in the Bible

and I could go on and on.. The extra stuff as you call it "added" in Catholicism has roots in tradition. Tradition preceded the writing of the Bible but protestants have ditched Tradition.. and so we have confused people, un-moored from the Original Church asking all these Qs.. not listening to the Catholics who respond to them.. and many people end up in Hell

 

[hadit]

In Maccabees, a book the Protestants deemed unworthy to remain in the Bible they claim to revere and live by

it speaks of praying for the dead, that they be "loosed from their sins"

Protestants generally are not deep into either the Old T (which the New is based on) OR history. Once they start studying such things, they cease to be Protestant

but a lot of them fear that more than anything

You do realize, don't you, that the people who rejected that book were early Church bishops, aka, Catholics since you insist that the first church was Catholic? Protestants didn't come on the scene until a thousand years later, in a rebellion against the corrupt CC of their day. My ancestors were hunted down and killed by that church because they dared to re-baptize as adults. You know, like Jesus did.

IOW, you might want to check some of your rants for facts before posting.

 

[hadit]

you mean like when Protestants add extra-Biblical things like:

Make Jesus your personal savior.

Those words are not in the Bible

No, they are not. In fact, all the words we use are not in the Bible, because it was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English. Jesus did, however, teach personal salvation and personal indwelling by the Holy Spirit. He also taught that salvation was only through Him. "Personal savior" is just our language that means what He was teaching.

How about the doctrine of You can never lose your salvation

Not in the Bible

And I don't adhere to it either. I maintain it is very difficult to lose it due to God's grace, and impossible to lose if you maintain it, but your choice is not taken away from you here on earth. Just as someone can be saved on their deathbed (no, last rites don't do anything), they can renounce Christ on their deathbed. That's a really dumb idea, though.

and I could go on and on.. The extra stuff as you call it "added" in Catholicism has roots in tradition. Tradition preceded the writing of the Bible but protestants have ditched Tradition.. and so we have confused people, un-moored from the Original Church asking all these Qs.. not listening to the Catholics who respond to them.. and many people end up in Hell

Yes, early Church tradition was Jewish, complete with animal sacrifices and the temple tax, etc. and they went through a big debate on whether to keep Christianity Jewish or to open it up to the entire world. There was no tradition in the early Church, for example, of people meeting in massive cathedrals with full orchestras, people in authority walking around in white robes with big hats on their heads. There was no tradition in the early Church of baptizing infants. There was no tradition in the early Church for Communion to be dispensed by person in authority in a church building. There was no tradition in the early Church for people to pay so their family members could get out of purgatory early.

There are a lot of traditions the CC added on long after the Church began and the Scriptures were written. I maintain the Gospel has to be simple enough that a child can understand it and profound enough to stump the oldest and wisest scholar. If a tradition is given greater authority than Scripture, it needs to be stripped away.

 

[james bond]

don't care. Catholics don't go by the Bible alone. The Bible is not complete, although the Mass is chock full of Scripture.

I don't care if praying to Mary is explicitly in the Bible bc praying to Mary helps me and that is all I need to know

I think Catholicism is more religious with ceremony and prayer than Protestant. For example, they have the Pope, prayer beads, sisters, Stations of the Cross and more.

 

[notmyfault2020]

You do realize, don't you, that the people who rejected that book were early Church bishops, aka, Catholics since you insist that the first church was Catholic?

I

As per usual, you are wrong, Anti-Catholic one. Yes, some Catholics at first rejected certain books of what we now know as the Bible (but in those days the New T had not been put together yet). The Jews (some) rejected the "apocrypha" also, yet some in both camps accepted them-- and THEN

once they were officially put together by the Catholic Church in the year 300-something, in what is now called the New Testament, Catholics were required to accept those books--and still do, even despite the infamous Vatican II Council which I myself reject whole-heartedly.

Then the infamous heretic Luther came along and sided with the Jewish sect that had long-ditched those books. LUTHER threw them out!

He also wanted to throw out the books of

St James
Hebrews
Revelation

and there was another that momentarily escapes me

However, colleagues persuaded him against ditching those 4

so much for reverence for the Bible! The Father of Protestantism ripped up the parts he didn't like and his followers in generations afterward do the same (with the bible and with Tradition)

 

[notmyfault2020]

I think Catholicism is more religious with ceremony and prayer than Protestant. For example, they have the Pope, prayer beads, sisters, Stations of the Cross and more.

maybe because those things work against our arch enemy, more intelligent, more knowledgable than we mere humans (therefore we need supernatural help)

 

[Meriweather]

Hence my asking questions and not accusing you of anything. My problem with the CC, and quite frankly, a whole lot of other denominations as well, is when they add a lot of extra-Biblical requirements and give them authority equal to or greater than Scripture itself. I contend that Christianity HAS to be relevant to everyone everywhere at all times, not to European centric cathedrals, castes of priests, and layers of administrative overhead. God speaks to His people wherever they are, and no one needs to go to a building, genuflect before a statue, light a candle or anything else to communicate with Him.

We are presenting different perspectives. A comparison: Most people who wish to play the piano, practice. The same is true of religion. No one is required to have a religion, but those who do, often practice their religious faith. What you seem to be calling "requirements" I see as simple practices of the Catholic faith. In Catholicism we often use the terms, "Practicing Catholic" and "Non-practicing Catholic".

Last week, Catholics honored St. Theresa of Avila, a Carmelite nun who lived in the fifteenth century in Spain. She wrote a book (The Interior Castle) reminding the faithful that while the best church can certainly help people on their way, church can only get us into the entrance way. While that is very good, we all have to remember, there is still a huge castle with many rooms for the faithful to explore--and most of that one is on their own.

If one wants to play the piano, practice. If one wants to be a Catholic Christian, practice. "Requirements" misses the mark of what the Catholic Church (and even all of Christianity) is about.

 

[notmyfault2020]

We are presenting different perspectives. A comparison: Most people who wish to play the piano, practice. The same is true of religion. No one is required to have a religion, but those who do, often practice their religious faith. What you seem to be calling "requirements" I see as simple practices of the Catholic faith. In Catholicism we often use the terms, "Practicing Catholic" and "Non-practicing Catholic".

Last week, Catholics honored St. Theresa of Avila, a Carmelite nun who lived in the fifteenth century in Spain. She wrote a book (The Interior Castle) reminding the faithful that while the best church can certainly help people on their way, church can only get us into the entrance way. While that is very good, we all have to remember, there is still a huge castle with many rooms for the faithful to explore--and most of that one is on their own.

If one wants to play the piano, practice. If one wants to be a Catholic Christian, practice. "Requirements" misses the mark of what the Catholic Church (and even all of Christianity) is about.

you meant the 1500s, not the fifteenth century

 

[hadit]

We are presenting different perspectives. A comparison: Most people who wish to play the piano, practice. The same is true of religion. No one is required to have a religion, but those who do, often practice their religious faith. What you seem to be calling "requirements" I see as simple practices of the Catholic faith. In Catholicism we often use the terms, "Practicing Catholic" and "Non-practicing Catholic".

Last week, Catholics honored St. Theresa of Avila, a Carmelite nun who lived in the fifteenth century in Spain. She wrote a book (The Interior Castle) reminding the faithful that while the best church can certainly help people on their way, church can only get us into the entrance way. While that is very good, we all have to remember, there is still a huge castle with many rooms for the faithful to explore--and most of that one is on their own.

If one wants to play the piano, practice. If one wants to be a Catholic Christian, practice. "Requirements" misses the mark of what the Catholic Church (and even all of Christianity) is about.

I have no problems with traditions, as long as they are recognized as traditions and not requirements. IOW, it's nice to hear about what saints of the past have done, I do not accept as a requirement that I pray to them. In fact, I regard all those who follow Christ as saints, as told in Scripture.

While you practice the CATHOLIC faith, I seek to develop and deepen my relationship with God, through study, prayer and obedience. My allegiance, therefore, is not to a denomination, but rather to God Himself. IOW, I can worship with people from all denominations as long as they accept Christ as the only way to the Father and are in relationship with Him. I have been working for years now to divest myself of tradition presented as requirement and seek the bare bones basis of the Gospel. I can then present the Gospel as meaningful to all people everywhere through all time.

 

[Meriweather]

you meant the 1500s, not the fifteenth century

Good catch. I was thinking, "She lived in the 1500s, which is the sixteenth century." I would have sworn I typed 'sixteenth' and had to go back to see I had written fifteenth. Thank you.

 

[Meriweather]

I do not accept as a requirement that I pray to them.

I know of no such requirement. Again, why would you even think it might be?

Catholics do take to heart, "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." and that both the living and those who have passed on make up the Body of Christ. Therefore, Catholics are comfortable about seeking those who have passed on to join them in prayer. I once asked both my grandmothers who had passed on to join in my prayer. With quite an astounding result. No one would have ever thought to "require" this of me.

 

[Meriweather]

While you practice the CATHOLIC faith, I seek to develop and deepen my relationship with God, through study, prayer and obedience.

Grin. You don't think that is what practicing the Catholic faith is all about? It is what dropped me right into the lap of God.

 

[Meriweather]

My allegiance, therefore, is not to a denomination, but rather to God Himself.

What an odd accusation. It would be like saying, "My allegiance, therefore in not to family, but only to Mom," when the entire family's allegiance is to Mom, not just simply the allegiance of one child.

The same with the Catholic Church, which is made up of the Body of Christ. That entire Body's allegiance is to God.

It is like you are claiming God only needs your allegiance, not the allegiance of anyone else in the Body. That is not only odd, that is extremely odd.

 

[james bond]

maybe because those things work against our arch enemy, more intelligent, more knowledgable than we mere humans (therefore we need supernatural help)

They have the Hail Mary prayer, too. So, they definitely pray to her. It even has become a football play. They have more people in the church, too, with archbishops, bishops, cardinals, priests, reverend mothers, sisters, etc.

 

[hadit]

What an odd accusation. It would be like saying, "My allegiance, therefore in not to family, but only to Mom," when the entire family's allegiance is to Mom, not just simply the allegiance of one child.

The same with the Catholic Church, which is made up of the Body of Christ. That entire Body's allegiance is to God.

It is like you are claiming God only needs your allegiance, not the allegiance of anyone else in the Body. That is not only odd, that is extremely odd.

Are you trying to claim that the Body of Christ is found only in the CC? That is completely false, if you are. And yes, my allegiance is to God, not to man or a man-made organization. The Church is far bigger than any earthly organization and exists in every heart that loves God and has faith in Christ. What I think you fail to realize is that the CC has added layer upon layer of tradition over top the Gospel to the point that an awful lot of Catholics don't discern the Spirit, don't know what worship is, and think that going to Mass and confession twice a year, plus Grandma being devout will open the gates of Heaven for them. This problem has taken root in many other denominations as well, where people think that they're Christians because their family has attended this church or that church for generations, or because they do a few pious things every now and then.

They all fail to discover what God really wants from them.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I have no problems with traditions, as long as they are recognized as traditions and not requirements.

animal sacrifice was a tradition the Church obviously rejected

But the protestants rejected a lot of things that the Original Church Christ founded WANTED to remain

As someone once said "To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant"

 

[notmyfault2020]

Good catch. I was thinking, "She lived in the 1500s, which is the sixteenth century." I would have sworn I typed 'sixteenth' and had to go back to see I had written fifteenth. Thank you.

You're a Catholic. You're not supposed to make mistakes!

(kidding--I get the feeling people think that about Catholics)

 

[notmyfault2020]

What an odd accusation. It would be like saying, "My allegiance, therefore in not to family, but only to Mom," when the entire family's allegiance is to Mom, not just simply the allegiance of one child.

The same with the Catholic Church, which is made up of the Body of Christ. That entire Body's allegiance is to God.

It is like you are claiming God only needs your allegiance, not the allegiance of anyone else in the Body. That is not only odd, that is extremely odd.

this reminds me of that Personal relationship with Jesus thing

Why is there such a focus on a PERSONAL rather than a public relationship? I mean, yeh, you want both (if you are healthy).

I think it is an excuse, actually... An acquaintance I had years ago, when I suggested we pray together (or something like that) said "I think people should pray in private, when no one is around."

And I was like.. Uh... yeh.. whatever.

This person was NOT a devout Christian. He was a fallen-away Catholic, though he did retain some of the Catholic teachings on morals/ethics.

I'm today thinking: Yeh.. just what Satan ordered: Keep your damn faith to yourself.. Separation of Church and State (which was never meant to keep the Church out of govt.. It was designed to keep the govt out of the Church.) .

 

[Meriweather]

Are you trying to claim that the Body of Christ is found only in the CC?

OF COURSE NOT! It should be obvious--and perfectly obvious at that--all disciples of Christ is part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Meriweather]

That is completely false, if you are.

I am ticked off that you would even consider I would think that! Deep breath and moving on...