Do you fear God?

[Anguille]

I do not scare very easily, perhaps thats one of the reasons why i'm an atheist

Talk to me about that when we're sharing a foxhole, eh?

That must be the oldest cliche' in the world.

 

[AllieBaba]

I completely agree with your first sentence.

For the second one I would ask you, is God separate from you or any other being?

For your third assertion, Christians have historically 'saved' those who didn't want to be saved by conquering them. The Crusades killed many non-Christians.

As to the co-creators of our world. We do co-create our world by our thoughts, words and deeds. Dismissing that as goobledy gook or crap just demonstrates that your mind is closed to discourse with others.

The crusades were undertaken as a defensive measure when Islam was advancing and conquering and threatening the whole of Europe.

Any other incredibly intelligent b.s. you'd like to add?

I see. That is why they slaughtered fellow Christians Constinople. The crusades were expeditions of looting and slaughter, no better, and no worse, than the expeditions of the Moslems of the time.

YOu need to read up on the history of Muslim expansion and land grabs.
652: Sicily is attacked by Muslims coming out of Tunisia (named Ifriqiya by the Muslims, a name later given to the entire continent of Africa).
662: Egypt fell to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates until 868 A.D. A year prior, the Fertile Crescent and Persia yielded to the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates, whose rule lasted until 1258 and 820, respectively.

667: The Arabs occupy Chalcedon, threatening Constantinope. Sicily is attacked by Muslims sailing from Tunisia.

668: First Siege of Constantinople: This attack lasts off and on for seven years, with the Muslim forces generally spending the winters on the island of Cyzicus, a few miles south of Constantinople, and only sailing against the city during the spring and summer months. The Greeks are able to fend off repeated attacks with a weapon desperately feared by the Arabs: Greek Fire. It burned through ships, shields, and flesh and it could not be put out once it started. Muawiyah has to send emissaries to Byzantine Emperor Constans to beg him to let the survivors return home unimpeded, a request that is granted in exchange for a yearly tribute of 3,000 pieces of gold, fifty slaves, and fifty Arab horses.
672: Beginning of the 'seven year' Arab siege of Constantinople.

674: Arab conquest reaches the Indus River.

August 23, 676: Birth of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in Herstal, Wallonia, Belgium, as the illegitimate son of Pippin II. Serving as Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Charles would lead a force of Christians that turn back a Muslim raiding party near Poitiers (or Tours) which, according to many historians, would effectively halt the advance of Islam against Christianity in the West.

677: Muslims send a large fleet against Constantinople in an effort to finally break the city, but they are defeated so badly through the Byzantine use of Greek Fire that they are forced to pay an indemnity to the Emperor.

711: With the further conquest of Egypt, Spain and North Africa, Islam included all of the Persian empire and most of the old Roman world under Islamic rule. Muslims began the conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan.

April 711: Tariq ibn Malik, a Berber officer, crosses the strait separating Africa and Europe with a group of Muslims and enters Spain (al-Andalus, as the Muslims called it, a word is etymologically linked to "Vandals"). The first stop in the Muslim conquest of Spain is at the foot of a mountain that comes to be called Jabel Tarik, the Mountain of Tarik. Today it is known as Gibraltar. At one time the Berbers had been Christians but they recently converted in large numbers to Islam after the Arab conquest of North Africa.

July 19, 711: Battle of Guadalete: Tariq ibn Ziyad kills King Rodrigo (or Roderic), Visigoth ruler of Spain, at the Guadalete River in the south of the Iberian peninsula. Tariq ibn Ziyad had landed at Gibraltar with 7,000 Muslims at the invitation of heirs of the late Visigoth King Witica (Witiza) who wanted to get rid of Rodrigo (this group includes Oppas, the bishop of Toledo and primate of all Spain, who happens to be the brother of the late king Witica). Ziyad, however, refuses to turn control of the region back over to the heirs of Witica. Almost the entire Iberian peninsula would come under Islamic control by 718.

712: Muslim governor of Northern Africa Musa ibn Nusayr follows Tariq ibn Ziyad with an army of 18,000 as reinforcements for the conquest of Andalusia. Musa's father had been a Catholic Yemenite studying to be a priest in Iraq when he was captured in Iraq by Khalid, the "Sword of Islam," and forced to choose between conversion or death. This invasion of Iraq had been one of the last military orders given by Muhammed before his death.

714: Birth of Pippin III (Pippin the Short) in Jupille (Belgium). Son of Charles Martel and father of Charlemagne, in 0759 Pippin would capture Narbonne, the last Muslim stronghold in France, and thereby drive Islam out of France.
715: By this year just about all of Spain is in Muslim hands. The Muslim conquest of Spain only took around three years but the Christian reconquest would require around 460 years (it might have gone faster had the various Christian kingdoms not been at each other' throats much of the time). Musa's son, Abd el-Aziz, is left in charge and makes his capital the city of Seville, where he married Egilona, widow of king Rodrigo. Caliph Suleiman, a paranoid ruler, would have el-Aziz assassinated and sends Musa into exile in his native Yemen village to live out his days as a beggar.

716: Lisbon is captured by Muslims.

717: Cordova (Qurtuba) becomes the capital of Muslim holdings in Andalusia (Spain).

August 15, 717: Second Siege of Constantinople: Taking advantage of the civil unrest in the Byzantine Empire, Caliph Sulieman sends 120,000 Muslims under the command of his brother, Moslemah, to launch the second siege of Constantinople. Another force of around 100,000 Muslims with 1,800 galleys soon arrives from Syria and Egypt to assist. Most of these reinforcements are quickly destroyed with Greek Fire. Eventually the Muslims outside Constantinople begin to starve and, in the winter, they also begin to freeze to death. Even the Bulgarians, usually hostile to the Byzantines, send a force to destroy Muslim reinforcements marching from Adrianopolis.
719: Muslims attack Septimania in southern France (so named because it was the base of operations for Rome's Seventh Legion) and become established in the region known as Languedoc, made famous several hundred years later as the center of the Cathar heresy.

July 09, 721: A Muslim army under the command of Al-Semah and that had crossed the Pyrenees is defeated by the Franks near Toulouse. Al-Semah is killed and his remaining forces, which had previously conquered Narbonne, are forced back across the Pyrenees into Spain.

722: Battle of Covadonga: Pelayo, (690-737) Visigoth noble who had been elected the first King of Asturias (718-0737), defeats a Muslim army at Alcama near Covadonga. This is generally regarded as the first real Christian victory over the Muslims in the Reconquista.
724: Hisham becomes the 10th caliph of the Umayyad Dynasty. It is under Hisham that Muslim forces make their deepest incursions into Western Europe before being stopped by Charles Martel at the Battle of Poitiers in 0732.

724: Under the command of Ambissa, Emir of Andalusia, Muslim forces raid southern France and capture the cities of Carcassone and Nimes. Primary targets in these and other raids are churches and monasteries where the Muslims take away holy objects and enslave or kill all the clerics.

725: Muslim forces occupied Nimes, France.

730: Muslim forces occupy the French cities of Narbonne and Avignon.
October 10, 732: Battle of Tours: With perhaps 1,500 soldiers, Charles Martel halts a Muslim force of around 40,000 to 60,000 cavalry under Abd el-Rahman Al Ghafiqi from moving farther into Europe. Many regard this battle as being decisive in that it saved Europe from Muslim control. Gibbon wrote: "A victorious line of march had been prolonged above a thousand miles from the rock of Gibraltar to the banks of the Loire; the repetition of an equal space would have carried the Saracens to the confines of Poland and the Highlands of Scotland; the Rhine is not more impassable than the Nile or Euphrates, and the Arabian fleet might have sailed without a naval combat into the mouth of the Thames. Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Muhammed." Others, though, argue that the battle's importance has been exaggerated. The names of Tours, Poitiers, and Charles Martel do not appear in the Arab histories. They list the battle under the name Balat al-Shuhada, the Highway of Martyrs, and is treated as a minor engagement.

735: Muslim invaders capture the city of Arles.
October 22, 741: Death of Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer) in at Quierzy (today the Aisne county in the Picardy region of France). As Mayor of the Palace of the kingdom of the Franks, Charles had led a force of Christians that turned back a Muslim raiding party near Poitiers (or Tours) which, according to many historians, effectively halted the advance of Islam against Christianity in the West.

750: The Abbasids assume control of the Islamic world (except Spain, which falls under the control of a descendant of the Umayyad family) and moved the capital to Baghdad in Iraq. The Abbasid Caliphate would last until 1258.

September 755: Abd al-Rahman of the Umayyad dynasty flees to Spain to escape the Abbasids and would be responsible for creating the "Golden Caliphate" in Spain.

756: The Emirate of Cordova is established by Umayyad refugee Abd al-Rahman I in order to revive the defeated Umayyad caliphate which had been destroyed in 0750 by the Abbasids. Cordova would become independent of the Abbasid Empire and represents the first major political division within Islam. The political and geographic isolation of the Cordova Caliphate would make it easier for Christians to decisively conquer it despite their failures elsewhere, although this would not be completed until 1492.

759: Arabs lose the city of Narbonne, France, their furthest and last conquest into Frankish territory. In capturing this city Pippin III (Pippin the Short) ends the Muslim incursions in France.
785: The Great Mosque in Cordoba, in Muslim controlled Spain, was built.
792: Hisham I, emir of Cordova, calls for a Jihad against the infidels in Andalusia and France. Tens of thousands from as far away as Syria heed his call and cross the Pyrennes to subjugate France. Cities like Narbonne are destroyed, but the invasion is ultimately hated at Carcassone.

796: Death of Hisham I, emir of Cordova. His successor is his son, al-Hakam, who would keep up the jihad against the Christians but would also be forced to contend with rebellion at home.

799: The Basques rise in revolt and kill the local Muslim governor of Pamplona.
June 827: Sicily is invaded by Muslims who, this time, are looking to take control of the island rather than simply taking away booty. They are initially aided by Euphemius, a Byzantine naval commander who is rebelling against the Emperor. Conquest of the island would require 75 years of hard fighting.

831: Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Palermo and make it their capital.

838: Muslim raiders sack Marseille.

841: Muslim forces capture Bari, principle Byzantine base in southeastern Italy.

846: Muslim raiders sail a fleet of ships from Africa up the Tiber river and attack outlying areas around Ostia and Rome. Some manage to enter Rome and damage the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. Not until Pope Leo IV promises a yearly tribute of 25,000 silver coins do the raiders leave. The Leonine Wall is built in order to fend off further attacks such as this.
850: Perfectus, a Christian priest in Muslim Cordova, is executed after he refuses to retract numerous insults he made about the Prophet Muhammed. Numerous other priests, monks, and laity would follow as Christians became caught up in a zest for martyrdom.

851: Abd al-Rahman II has eleven young Christians executed in the city of Cordova after they deliberately seek out martyrdom by insulting the Prophet Muhammed.

859: Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Castrogiovanni (Enna), slaughtering several thousand inhabitants.

866: Emperor Louis II travels from Germany to southern Italy to battle the Muslim raiders causing trouble there.
869: Arabs capture the island of Malta.

870: After a month-long siege, the Sicilian city of Syracuse is captured by Muslim invaders.
876: Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy.
902: The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed when the last Christian stronghold, the city of Taorminia, is captured. Muslim rule of Sicily would last for 264 years.
911: Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy, cutting off passage between the two countries.

912: Abd al-Rahman III becomes the Umayyad Caliph in Andalusia.

916: A combined force of Greek and German emperors and Italian city-states defeat Muslim invaders at Garigliano, putting Muslim raids in Italy to an end.

920: Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony, and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse.
939: Madrid is recaptured from Muslim forces.
981: Ramiro III, king of Leon, is defeated by Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir (Almanzor) at Rueda and is forced to begin paying tribute to the Caliph of Cordova.

985: Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona

994: The monastery of Monte Cassino is destroyed a second time by Arabs.

July 03, 997: Under the leadership of Almanzor, Muslim forces march out of the city of Cordova and head north to capture Christian lands.

August 11, 997: Muslim forces under Almanzor arrive at the city of Compostela. The city had been evacuated and Almanzor burns it to the ground.

998: Venice conquers the Adriatic port of Zara.
1004: Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa.
1012: Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed.

1013: Jews are expelled from the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordova, then ruled by Sulaimann.

1015: Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia.
1070: Seljuk Turks capture Jerusalem from the Fatimids. Seljuk rule is not quite as tolerant as that of the Fatimids and Christian pilgrims begin returning to Europe with tales of persecution and oppression.

1071-1085: Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine.

August 19, 1071: Battle of Manzikert: Alp Arslan leads an army of Seljuk Turks against the Byzantine Empire near Lake Van. Numbering perhaps as many as 100,000 men, the Turks take the fortresses of Akhlat and Manzikert before Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes can respond. Although Diogenes is able to recapture Akhlat, the siege of Manzikert fails when a Turkish relief force arrives and Andronicus Ducas, an enemy of Romanus Diogenes, refuses to obey orders to fight. Diogenes himself is captured and released, but he would be murdered after his return to Constantinople. Partly because of the defeat at Manzikert and partly due to the civil wars following the murder of Digoenes, Asia Minor would be left open to Turkish invasion.
FIRST CRUSADE (1096-99)

Spring, 1096: Peasants' (or PeopleÕs) Crusade sets out from Europe. Three armies don't make it past Hungary.

Spring-Summer 1096: Massacres against German Jews occur on the way to the Holy Land.Ê Crusaders believe that the battle against Christ's enemies ought to begin at home.

August, 1096: Emperor Alexius of Constantinople shipped the Peasants' Crusade over the Bosporus.

Late Summer, 1096: First Crusade leaders depart Europe.

October 1096: Peasants' Crusade annihilated in Anatolia by the Turks.

Spring, 1097: First Crusade contingents assembling in Constantinople.

End of April 1097: First Crusade began the march in Anatolia to Nicaea.

May 14ÐJune 19 1097: Siege of Nicaea.

Islam and Europe Timeline (355-1291 A.D.)

 

[AllieBaba]

Your curiosity may lessen when you see the lake of fire, and you may find out you still have it in you to fear after all.

I see. And that is how you understand the message of Jesus? A Deity that eternally tortures those that do not bend a knee to him? A very sociopathic Deity. A projection of a very sick mind.

All you have to do is accept Jesus and you're saved from the fire.

Nobody else is worthy to be in the presence of a perfect being.

Makes sense to me.

 

[007]

Here's a novel idea... why don't you go join a muslim board and tell all your kind to KNOCK IT OFF... then maybe the world could see some peace. Oh that's right, you people have been KILLING each other and INFIDELS for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.... fat chance the world will EVER see you people stop the killing.

Pesky Muslims and their army bases in our lands... so aggressive! And when we try to make UN resolutions protecting people, they just veto them!!!


I'm right there with ya, Pale.

Yeah right gurd... let's just not mention the bombing of the Marine Corp barracks, or the USS Cole, or the World Trade centers.... or any one of the other hundreds of bombings and terrorist acts done world wide by muslims... yeah.... let's just not bother with those "pesky" little details.....

 

[neurosport]

I hear people talking about fearing God and I don't think I understand why. I don't fear God, I trust God to do what is right for me. Sometimes I need lessons that aren't very pleasant, but I don't fear them or God for giving them to me. So I'm wondering if there's some way to take the phrase that I'm not understanding.

Atheists and other non-believers I would really appreciate it if you could not derail the thread, I really want to hear what other believers think without the usual flaming that accompanies "religious" threads.

Thanks

i don't believe in God and yet i fear him.

it would be stupid not to !

i can joke about fucking little kids in the ass but i don't want to joke with God.

i think fear of God is not really related to whether you're an atheist or not. its whether you think the world owes you something or not. some people are stupid enough to think that it does. i don't believe that.

i also don't believe that i owe the world anything.

you can all go fuck yourselves

 

[007]

Ok, I *really* didn't want to step into this, because I have a splitting headache, and I know it's NOT going to be well received. BUT...

Pale - Kalam didn't fly a plane into a building and isn't responsible for what OTHER people do, whether or not he speaks out against it to your satisfaction. He's responsible for that HE does, and nothing more.

That said.. WTF are you two doing, and kindly knock it the hell off.

That's OK Dis, say what you like, I'll get over it. However, to address what you did say, salami has vowed to not leave me alone, period, and has demonstrated he means it. So why should I leave him alone? That knock it off stuff has to go both ways.

And just to add, if you're going to ask salami and I to knock it the hell off, if you're going to be "fair," you need to ask the whole board to knock it the hell off. Now what do think the possibilities of that are? ...

 

[neurosport]

I'm not interested in the games that are played here, I'm searching for truth and understanding.

so you think God created internet so u could find the truth about him here ?

i'm sorry but you won't "find" anything.

it's just what you believe ...

 

[007]

i don't believe in God and yet i fear him.

it would be stupid not to !

i can joke about fucking little kids in the ass but i don't want to joke with God.

i think fear of God is not really related to whether you're an atheist or not. its whether you think the world owes you something or not. some people are stupid enough to think that it does. i don't believe that.

i also don't believe that i owe the world anything.

you can all go fuck yourselves

Riiiiiiiiiight.... AND THE OSCAR GOES TO...... neurosport.....

 

[HUGGY]

Here's a novel idea... why don't you go join a muslim board and tell all your kind to KNOCK IT OFF... then maybe the world could see some peace. Oh that's right, you people have been KILLING each other and INFIDELS for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.... fat chance the world will EVER see you people stop the killing.

Pesky Muslims and their army bases in our lands... so aggressive! And when we try to make UN resolutions protecting people, they just veto them!!!


I'm right there with ya, Pale.

Yeah right gurd... let's just not mention the bombing of the Marine Corp barracks, or the USS Cole, or the World Trade centers.... or any one of the other hundreds of bombings and terrorist acts done world wide by muslims... yeah.... let's just not bother with those "pesky" little details.....

What an arrogant moron. The cole and the barracks were in foreign waters and a foreign land. The towers were a response from OUR pet terrorist ...one of those we sponsored in Afghanistan against the ruskies because we would'nt remove our air force base in Saudi Arabia. I'm not saying it is right to kill americans but they did have reasons to hate us that we could have corrected before the shit hit the fan..

When are we going to start realizing that this planet is not the sole property of the U S A?

We have gone a long time thinking that respect is earned at the point of a gun. That policy was blown to shit on 9/11. And don't start some stupid lefty liberal crap. I like to pick my own enemies based on truth and facts. I have no problem killing things. If the Saudi Arabian navy starts setting up shop in Puget sound I will take my chris craft out and sink one of thier ships. I promise.

 

[Anguille]

I'm not interested in the games that are played here, I'm searching for truth and understanding.

so you think God created internet so u could find the truth about him here ?

i'm sorry but you won't "find" anything.

it's just what you believe ...

That's a bit of truth right there.

 

[Anguille]

I hear people talking about fearing God and I don't think I understand why. I don't fear God, I trust God to do what is right for me. Sometimes I need lessons that aren't very pleasant, but I don't fear them or God for giving them to me. So I'm wondering if there's some way to take the phrase that I'm not understanding.

Atheists and other non-believers I would really appreciate it if you could not derail the thread, I really want to hear what other believers think without the usual flaming that accompanies "religious" threads.

Thanks

i don't believe in God and yet i fear him.

......

i think fear of God is not really related to whether you're an atheist or not.

Interesting. I used to fear the devil when I was a kid. The supernatural seemed more possible then.

 

[TofuDog]

"i don't believe in God and yet i fear him." If you're a guy, that's like saying that you suck cock but you're not gay. Is that what you think?

"Interesting. I used to fear the devil when I was a kid. The supernatural seemed more possible then." When did you find out there's no Santa Claus?

Amanda, seeing everything through the lens of god seems very unhealthy mentally, like you're losing your grip on reality. Even if there is a god (I'm agnostic), I doubt that it would want people to go through life obsessing about it. Like, it's ok to believe in aliens, but to obsess about seeing them everywhere all the time is a little overboard.

 

[Anguille]

"i don't believe in God and yet i fear him." If you're a guy, that's like saying that you suck cock but you're not gay. Is that what you think?

"Interesting. I used to fear the devil when I was a kid. The supernatural seemed more possible then." When did you find out there's no Santa Claus?

Amanda, seeing everything through the lens of god seems very unhealthy mentally, like you're losing your grip on reality. Even if there is a god (I'm agnostic), I doubt that it would want people to go through life obsessing about it. Like, it's ok to believe in aliens, but to obsess about seeing them everywhere all the time is a little overboard.

LOL!

And good points.

 

[Amanda]

Amanda, seeing everything through the lens of god seems very unhealthy mentally, like you're losing your grip on reality. Even if there is a god (I'm agnostic), I doubt that it would want people to go through life obsessing about it. Like, it's ok to believe in aliens, but to obsess about seeing them everywhere all the time is a little overboard.

Hmmm... I think it's just the opposite.

 

[Anguille]

When have I been intolerant? A link would be helpful. Thanks.

Had you also accused her of intellectual dishonesty, you would have been pulling a perfect Ravi.

I'm not interested in the games that are played here, I'm searching for truth and understanding.

Pulling an Amanda: Taking a light hearted and obvious attempt at humor directed your way as a vicious personal attack and responding with self-righteous indignation.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Your curiosity may lessen when you see the lake of fire, and you may find out you still have it in you to fear after all.

I see. And that is how you understand the message of Jesus? A Deity that eternally tortures those that do not bend a knee to him? A very sociopathic Deity. A projection of a very sick mind.

All you have to do is accept Jesus and you're saved from the fire.

Nobody else is worthy to be in the presence of a perfect being.Makes sense to me.

???

I don't fear God, I fear Ali Babba's version of God. Xtian Jihadist.