CDZ Do you believe propaganda?

[Saigon]

Delta -

Nice quote.

But the propagandist's purpose is also to distort both history and the possible future, as Orwell describes so accurately.

We see SO mch of this on this board everyday, and often from people who should know better, and very likely do know better.

Here are five areas of propaganda I see on this board:

1. How often do we see conservatives essentially whitewash Republicans role in the economic meltdown?

2. How often do we see liberals essentially blame EVERYTHING about the meltdown on Bush, when the underlying causes extended back through 30 years of overspending?

3. How often do we see right-wing posters deny climate change because they hate Al Gore, can't see a hurricane outside their window and failed science at school.

4. How often do we see posters claim 'typical liberal/conservative' thinking or 'stupid liberal' or 'liberals can't think'. This is the ultimate in childishness in my book. No political group has a monopoly on smart or stupid. Particularly when posted by a person whose knowledge of politics comes from reading the first chapter of Reagan's biography.

5. And the strangest one for me - this "theory" that Hitler was left-wing, because of 'national socialism'. It's an understandable mistake, but only briefly, and with some posters I sense a very delivberate attempt to change the dictionary definitions and re-write 60 years of recorded history. What next - the Peoples' Democratic Republic of North Korea is a democracy?!

 

[Saigon]

one mans propaganda is another's fact.

True.

But in most cases (not all) there is also a correct theory and an incorrect one.

For instance, some posters have claimed that man cannot influence climate. Take a look at a map of the ozone hole and we can see that this piece of propaganda is 100% false. Mankind caused the ozone hole to grow, we banned the chemicals responsible, and it is not beginning to shrink. So the fact is that man CAN influence what goes on in the atmosphere, and the climactic effects of that.

 

[Rikurzhen]

5. And the strangest one for me - this "theory" that Hitler was left-wing, because of 'national socialism'. It's an understandable mistake, but only briefly, and with some posters I sense a very delivberate attempt to change the dictionary definitions and re-write 60 years of recorded history. What next - the Peoples' Democratic Republic of North Korea is a democracy?!

A bunch of left-wing academics, likely taking orders from Comrade Joe, work to demonize Fascism and distance Communism from it and you take their efforts as gospel while you'd likely be very suspicious of climate scientists who issue reports paid for by coal and oil companies which find that carbon emissions are no big thing.

For Hitler to be rightwing you have to take moderate conservative positions, then push them further along the rightwing axis, then go even further, then even further until your reach the "far right." That's an impossible task when National Socialism (Fascism) starts out as a competitor to International Socialism (Communism) for the title of the best method of achieving socialist control of a nation. You have Hitler and other Nazi leaders coming from socialist and communist activism and you posit that they leap backwards over the moderate leftists, then the centrists, then the moderate right, then the hard right and they land at the far right. It's a crazy proposition. There's nothing organic about how the Nazis end up as Far Right when they were allies with the Far Left and then became competitors of the Far Left for the title of best form of socialism.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

Unfortunately that is not simply not true.

Fascism was reported as being right-wing by a half dozen German historians at the time (and I can refer you to their books if you like) and has been clear and unindisputed history ever since. In all honesty, I had NEVER seen anyone dispute this until coming to this board.

It is an understandable mistake, given the odd 'national socialist' tag, but read anyone of the 20 most well-regarded academic or general biographies for Hitler, and it's always fairly easily explained. It's not a mystery, it's not controversial. Every major biography - and I particularly point out those by Ian Kershaw (Hubris) and work by Richard Overty, Montefiore, Marris and the superb biography by Speer/Sereny make this all very clear, I think.

For most people I think a dictionary and a quick glance at the classic political horseshoe* is enough:


fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1.
any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3.
prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

Fascism Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

* I see there are some 're-written' ones of these around as well, but the one I post here is a reasonable overview.


They key to understanding ALL of this is to understanding that the left/right extremes are closer to each other than they are to the centre. So yes, Hitler is closer to Stalin than he is to John McCain, while still being Stalin's ideological polar opposite. Stalin is closer to Hitler than he is to Obama, while still being Hitler's polar opposite. The horsehoe maps this brilliantly, but I like this graphic as well.

Anyone who has any questions - I'd be happy to explain further.

 

[Indofred]

Nice chart, and I agree with it, but it should be a circle, not a straight line.
Once you get to the extremes, the ideals tend to merge and loads of people have to die, only the "enemy" changes.

 

[Saigon]

Indofred -

Well, it should really be a horsehoe, a la this Australian one:

but I thought some of the names tagged were placed slightly strangely...Bush Jnr more extreme than Ayn Rand, for instance?!

But the basic concept here is clear and I think very strong.

But the key is that Hitler and Stalin never become one, because ideologically they remain polar opposites in core issues like the role of class and the use of capital. There always needs to be some space between them, although one could imagine some populists or White Nationalist-type groups filling that space with a mix of left/right populism. One chart has 'lunatic fringe' in between Hitler and Stalin, which isn't bad!

 

[Politico]

Do you believe propaganda?

No.

 

[Noomi]

People need to check Snopes before they believe shit like that.

 

[I.P.Freely]

Propaganda often replaces the truth but, if you need to lie to make your point, your point must be a load of old crap.
As for Americans travelling, it just apply to everyone, anywhere in the world.
If the future politicians and business leaders have travelled, they know so much more than any book or video can teach them about the world.

Books are not the only way people who do not travel learn about the world.-----
Travellers can remain utterly clueless about the countries thru with they pass.----
even if they LIVE in those countries for periods of time. People tend
to stick with a SET OF PEOPLE-----or particular settings. I have never been
to GREECE-----but I already know what the PARTHENON looks like----
and-------I have been tourist locations that probably sell the same kind of
made in china souvenirs that I already have. Even diplomats get to know----
other diplomats -------and drink tea from cups made ------well now in china----
but earlier in bavaria

Propaganda often replaces the truth but, if you need to lie to make your point, your point must be a load of old crap.
As for Americans travelling, it just apply to everyone, anywhere in the world.
If the future politicians and business leaders have travelled, they know so much more than any book or video can teach them about the world.

Books are not the only way people who do not travel learn about the world.-----
Travellers can remain utterly clueless about the countries thru with they pass.----
even if they LIVE in those countries for periods of time. People tend
to stick with a SET OF PEOPLE-----or particular settings. I have never been
to GREECE-----but I already know what the PARTHENON looks like----
and-------I have been tourist locations that probably sell the same kind of
made in china souvenirs that I already have. Even diplomats get to know----
other diplomats -------and drink tea from cups made ------well now in china----
but earlier in bavaria

You speak Greek and how many other European languages? Cuba is close to America, I have been about 13 times. Have you been and if not what do you know about it.

 

[Indofred]

But the key is that Hitler and Stalin never become one, because ideologically they remain polar opposites in core issues like the role of class and the use of capital

I agree, but I was thinking more of behaviour when they reach the extremes.
I tend to think, when they get that stupid, cash, power and all the girls they can fit on their face becomes far more important than the ideology they set out to create.

 

[Politico]

People need to check Snopes before they believe shit like that.

Or sign off the internets and use some common sense.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Rik -

Unfortunately that is not simply not true.

Fortunately, it is true.

In all honesty, I had NEVER seen anyone dispute this until coming to this board.

In all honesty, you're a pretty good example of someone who lives in an intellectual bubble. Your positions are quite doctrinaire and predictable and I'm not really surprised that you've never ventured outside your intellectual bubble.

So yes, Hitler is closer to Stalin than he is to John McCain, while still being Stalin's ideological polar opposite.

The Nazi 25-Point Plan:

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the non-Germans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the pinciple:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.​

To the bolded, oh yeah, Stalin's POLAR OPPOSITE. What a laugh.

Anyone who has any questions - I'd be happy to explain further.

A propagandist makes a kind offer.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

If you are comfortable believing that - go right ahead.

Get back to me anytime you'd like to be right.

I did have to laugh at the 'intellectual bubble' line - yes, I live in a bubble that has taken me to 100 countries exactly, including working on this topic in every country to house Nazi camps.

And you?

 

[Lipush]

Do you believe propaganda, Indofred?

I used to - then I grew a brain, or at least worked out how to use it.
It all started when I witnessed the true events I later saw in a newspaper story.
The story was total fiction, thus I realised, the press lies.

A simple story about the death of a very expensive koi carp at a fish show.
The Daily mail had it down as a total fuck up by the show's staff, blaming poor water control, but I saw that fish as it was brought in, and it was in a terrible state, clearly in serious trouble before it went near a tank.
The staff refused to allow it into a show tank because of its condition, but the Mail missed that little detail out, blaming the show.
From that moment on, I realised the press lie, so I no longer believe the crap on many issues until I've checked it out.
The latest is a Welsh bloke, held in an Indonesian prison. He claims he's held without charges, but he's actually an illegal immigrant, and working without a work permit.
Immigration violations don't require charges as there is no visa, thus you're illegal.
The Welsh newspaper story makes loads of claims, none likely to be true.

I do agree that personal experience is the best medicine to propaganda. However, people tend to believe others twist the truth, even when it comes to personal experiences, in order to shape reality to their agendas.

Sometimes its the case, other times it isn't

And to other things you just believe, because you have no chance to actually verify for yourself.

 

[irosie91]

[
Lipush

I do agree that personal experience is the best medicine to propaganda. However, people tend to believe others twist the truth, even when it comes to personal experiences, in order to shape reality to their agendas.

Sometimes its the case, other times it isn't

And to other things you just believe, because you have no chance to actually verify for yourself.[/QUOTE]''

People is the "experience" In order to gain any understanding of a people--
one has to know the people. Taking a look at the Pyramids is not going
to create an understanding of today's Egyptians -----around the world in 80
days is not going to confer an UNDERSTANDING OF WORLD CULTURES
I is lucky (sorta) I have worked and socialized with people from many lands---
most intensely with south east Asians. I have lived amongst immigrant groups
in the USA---and dealt with them closely ----inside and out I have learned
a lot more about cultures thru that interaction than a VACATION ON THE FRENC RIVIERA and----a side trip to Athens ------and certainly more tha
SKI trips to the ALPS I am also luck in being short-----persons from
south east asia are sometimes intimidated by TALL women

as to bias------thu my interaction with persons from south east asia , etc-----
I learned the very valuable lesson that ones childhood education is
---the BIGGEST FACTOR is ones own "culture" an example----
Pakistani schools teach hard core nazi propaganda CHAPTER AND VERSE---
you can take Karachi out of the Pakistani-----but removing the nazi is virtually
impossible

as a child---I was close with two sisters of SERBIAN background----
spent lots of time in their house. Because I knew them and a bit
about their "way of thinking"-----the war in Bosnia ---was no surprise
to me --------the HATRED that serbs bear ------muslims AND catholics---
not to mention jews------is quite a phenomenon. My friends were born in
the USA----their parents SOLID SERBS-------the issue over there is
tribal-like hatred ------bosnians, hate serbs and croats. serbs hate croats and
bosnians and croats hate bosnians and serbs-------make that
muslims, eastern ortho, catholic (and everyone hates da joooos)
The culture ------as I grew up (and even the cuisine) is KURDISH like
(at least as far as my palate could discern)

 

[Indofred]

And to other things you just believe, because you have no chance to actually verify for yourself.

On the most important topics, you simply can't just accept the words of others; you must check for yourself.
I've found so many lies, ones that change the whole face of a situation, and ones that others simply accept.

 

[Saigon]

But the key is that Hitler and Stalin never become one, because ideologically they remain polar opposites in core issues like the role of class and the use of capital

I agree, but I was thinking more of behaviour when they reach the extremes.
I tend to think, when they get that stupid, cash, power and all the girls they can fit on their face becomes far more important than the ideology they set out to create.

I agree. For the man on the street, life under Nazism probably didn't feel much different to Communism.

But for the middle and upper classes it was very different. Totally, 180 degrees different. Stalin smashed the middle classes, kulaks and "wreckers"; whereas Hitler empowered them, promised them cars and profits. Stalin called the middle class the enemy, Hitler cultivated them as vital cogs in the greater machine. Even in the military, Stalin executed excellent offices because they were officers - Hitler promoted them.

Besides, Hitler was never that keen on girls!