Dirty Politics

[CA95380]

That is the way WAR works. That is the way supply works. That is the way procurement works.

Ok, whatever. Since you are the military expert here on the boards RetiredGySgt .... we will assume you know everything that you are talking about.

But from first hand reports from Kyle, his mother and his Dad .... about conditions at Walter Reed Hospital, the BS you are spreading are no where as 'rosy' as you want everyone to believe. Blame it on the Democrats or civilians if that 'floats your boat' ... what President was it that said "The Buck stops here?" Bush needs to be accountable for everything and every American life that has been lost in Iraq! Plain and simple!

Btw ... for curiosity sake .... how long have you been retired from the military? I seriously doubt we would get an honest answer ... so forget it!

 

[Angel Heart]

Having served myself, I can tell you supplies have always been an issue. Regardless of what war. Any one who's spent anytime in the service current or past knows that supply is always an issue.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ok, whatever. Since you are the military expert here on the boards RetiredGySgt .... we will assume you know everything that you are talking about.

But from first hand reports from Kyle, his mother and his Dad .... about conditions at Walter Reed Hospital, the BS you are spreading are no where as 'rosy' as you want everyone to believe. Blame it on the Democrats or civilians if that 'floats your boat' ... what President was it that said "The Buck stops here?" Bush needs to be accountable for everything and every American life that has been lost in Iraq! Plain and simple!

Btw ... for curiosity sake .... how long have you been retired from the military? I seriously doubt we would get an honest answer ... so forget it!

Calling me a liar now I see. Par for the course, your on here pretending to be some moderate when your really a left wing loon from the left coast.

Ohh by the way I was put on the temporary disabled list on 30 June 1995 and officially retired on in late 1999. It is a 5 year process with 2 reviews ( 18 months each) before they officially retire you on a medical ( very few exceptions) After the last review they don't always wait till the full 5 years is up, since the review process is done.

The President is not responsible for batteries or shit paper at the unit level. All the units that deployed to Iraq did so with all the equipment they had and additional equipment they found. That too is how it works in the real world.

By the way, while I never liked it much, EVERY MRE has toilet paper in it. And I ALWAYS brought my own roll or two of toilet paper to the field with me.

The military does not usually provide toilet paper to individual troops. They provide it to facilities and to commands via, again, a BUDGET.

Lack of NEW body armor was not because Bush did not buy it, it was because the plan was to replace it over 10 YEARS and we went at the 5 year mark. The lack of up armored Hummers had nothing to do with a lack of equipment it had to do with what the military thought it needed in armored and unarmored vehicles prior to Iraq.

You are aware that the added armor is one of the reasons vehicles break down quicker, and of course the desert conditions.

The majority of the militaries Hummers were unarmored, not due to lack of equipment but because the military WANTED it that way. Ohh and ALL the trucks were unarmored. Again this had nothing to do with Bush or missing equipment. It was what the Army and Marine Corps planned for. Neither serves was short any vehicles.

After Iraq the services will probably return to less up armored vehicles as well, the armor is to rough on the vehicles and breaks them down to quick. And our military does not plan for the entire force to be deployed to the type of conflict we have had in Iraq after the invasion.

In Gulf one the Marines still had M-60 tanks. The Army was ordered to replace the Marine Tanks with M1's and ever since the Marines now have M1's. The Marines were not under equipped, the military decided that with that conflict they would retire the M-60 the Marines used and replace them with M-1's. Prior to that the Marine Corps budget did not allow for replacing 3 battalions of tanks with M1's and after the Marine Corps received them they had to train their people on them and rework budgets for maintenance and supply. They had to retrain all the supply and techs and repair personnel for the Tank Battalions. They had to get more M1's to replace all the predeployed ships cargo, shuffling the ships cargo around because an M1 is bigger than an M60. Replacing all the M60 ammo and supplies and repair materials through out the Corps with those for the M1.

That is the reality of LOGISTICS. Further claiming a President is responsible for Military inventory a little over a year after getting elected is ignorant as hell. It takes YEARS to change inventories because of a Myriad of LOGISTIC concerns and arrangements.

Further the President has no idea what equipment the services need or use, that is the job of the services to articulate and submit to CONGRESS for the funds to make it happen. Congress decided it would be a 10 year program to replace the old flak jackets, and that decision was made 3 years before Bush ever became President.

 

[editec]

again, LOGISTICS

not under equipped

What a load of qibbling bullshit, sport.

If the equipment isn't getting to the troops the troops were not properly equipped.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't know about dirty politics but you sure wrote the book on DUMB politics.

You know how the GOP likes to point out that Obama has a half brother that lives on a $1 a day in Kenya? Suggesting he doesn't help his brother?

Did you know Cindy McCain claims she is an only child, which she is not? She has 2 other half siblings, that were CUT OUT of the will. One of her half sisters credit cards were shut off the day of her fathers funeral. Who thinks to do that when your father just died?

I guess each half sister only got $10K, and Cindy got multi millions.

And I didn't expect you to understand. You don't want to know the magicians trick. You want to pretend it's really magic.

PS. Obama is half Irish. It's O'Bama. You don't like to talk about his Irish side though. Just his Kenya side.

 

[sealybobo]

WTF are you blabbering about now?
you are painfully misinformed

You are. Are you listening/watching the Democratic convention? If you are, what are the protesters protesting today? Let's see if you know, which I doubt you do.

 

[sealybobo]

You're biggest problem here is McCain hasnt smeared anyone.

Semantics.

 

[sealybobo]

they werent under equipted
thats a total fabrication


you guys really need to seek out professional help for that ABDS

They didn't even have armor plated hum-v's stupid. They were getting blown up by road side bombs and Bush & Friends didn't want to cut into their precious profits by putting armor on the cars.

I even saw troops being interviewed. They said they were forced to find scrap metal and put it in their suv's for protection. Now that's improvizing.

George Bush doesn't care about black people, or troops. Get it?

 

[sealybobo]

ok asshole, prove the troops were under equipped

Soldiers at Camp Buehring, a staging area in the Kuwait desert, peppered Rumsfeld with queries about the standard of equipment they would be using and about the Pentagon's "stop-loss" policy, which prevents troops from leaving the military service even if they are eligible to retire or quit.

One soldier, identified by The Associated Press as Army Spc. Thomas Wilson of the 278th Regimental Combat Team, a Tennessee National Guard outfit, asked Rumsfeld why more military combat vehicles were not reinforced for battle conditions.

You should be banned from coming here, because you are either too stupid or a liar. Do you really not remember all these stories? Maybe you aren't educated enough to vote dumb shit?

CNN.com - Troops put thorny questions to Rumsfeld - Dec 9, 2004

 

[Gunny]

They didn't even have armor plated hum-v's stupid. They were getting blown up by road side bombs and Bush & Friends didn't want to cut into their precious profits by putting armor on the cars.

I even saw troops being interviewed. They said they were forced to find scrap metal and put it in their suv's for protection. Now that's improvizing.

George Bush doesn't care about black people, or troops. Get it?

I get it. Troops have been improvising armor since armor was invented. They used to do the exact same thing to jeeps in Vietnam. Your blaming Bush for the natural progression of weapons and tactics is what's stupid here. You have NO clue as to what you're frothing at the mouth about.

It works like this: You put on more armor, I build a bigger bomb. You put on too muhc armor, your damned vehicle won't move and it's useless to you and I can blow you up at my leisure while you're stuck in place.

Whatever you do, don't let the simple common sense to THAT change your ignorant, stupid opinion based on nothing but the usual one-sided manure you willingly believe.

 

[blunt]

I love it..a battle between the liars...no loyalty amongst theives..keep at it dickheads.

 

[Gunny]

I love it..a battle between the liars...no loyalty amongst theives..keep at it dickheads.

I'm sure you don't love it anymore than I do completely cluesless morons talking out their asses. But hey, I'm big on benefit of doubt. Feel free to detail your military experience and tell ME what it's all about.

Otherwise, shut up and go back to your hole and take that pet retard sealybooboo with you.

 

[sealybobo]

I get it. Troops have been improvising armor since armor was invented. They used to do the exact same thing to jeeps in Vietnam. Your blaming Bush for the natural progression of weapons and tactics is what's stupid here. You have NO clue as to what you're frothing at the mouth about.

It works like this: You put on more armor, I build a bigger bomb. You put on too muhc armor, your damned vehicle won't move and it's useless to you and I can blow you up at my leisure while you're stuck in place.

Whatever you do, don't let the simple common sense to THAT change your ignorant, stupid opinion based on nothing but the usual one-sided manure you willingly believe.

You are so one sided it scares me:

I could show you all day that they were under equipped, at least in the beginning, and it won't matter to you anyways. It was only after We bitched about it that Bush started spending some of the money on the troops instead of all of it on Haloburton/Blackwater.

Whatever dude. Ok, I didn't hear/read those reports. My bad.

 

[Gunny]

You are so one sided it scares me:

I could show you all day that they were under equipped, at least in the beginning, and it won't matter to you anyways. It was only after We bitched about it that Bush started spending some of the money on the troops instead of all of it on Haloburton/Blackwater.

Whatever dude. Ok, I didn't hear/read those reports. My bad.

You are just plain stupid. First off, your bitching accomplished NOTHING. Get over yourself. What you and the rest of your gaggle did was take an issue that has gone on throughout the history of warfare and try to blame it on a President because he was from your political opposition.

It doesn't get simpler than that.

And no, Mr "Ive got a friend who said ... I heard that ... blah, blah, blah ..." YOU can't tell me shit about what I was part of for 20 years and all you know about it is the political propaganda someone else dreams up and you just drone around like a good little worker bee regurgitating.

You want to talk personal body armor, or vehicle armor? You can keep that new shit. I didn't like wearing the old shit, and most Marines I ever knew didn't. It's heavy and hot and slows you down. And you want to slap some even heavier shit on me? Fuck you. My ability to move keeps me alive more than some armor that covers only my torso

Then there's the fact that you don't have ANY body armor I can't penetrate completely with a bluetip.

Same with the vehicles. However much armor you add decreases that vehicles speed and maneuverability. There has to be a balance.

No, the simple facts are you're talking out your ass for one thing; obviously don't have any experience with using personal body armor and/or armored vehicles; and, you're just doing the usual taking an impossible scenario and trying to blame it on Bush because you're a kool-aid drinking partisan hack.

I'd LOVE to see you, and your two little nasty bastard sheeple that like to slap each other on the hiney all over this board loaded down in full 782 gear, plus your chow, plus the crew served weapons extra ammo, and watch y'all fall out of the back of a 3 ton and thrash around your backs like turtles in the sand. But Hell, let's stick some MORE weight on your dumb asses.

 

[editec]

Oh for crimminies sakes, Seal, if these folks are going to pretend that they cannot remember that at the beginning of the war our own troops (those would be the guys these nitwits claim to support, but don't really) were screaming for armored vehicals and body armor, there's really no sense engaging them in discussions at all.

You can't have a rational discussion with bold faced liars like these, sport.

All you can do is mock them with their own words when it amuses you to do so.

 

[Gunny]

Oh for crimminies sakes, Seal, if these folks are going to pretend that they cannot remember that at the beginning of the war our own troops (those would be the guys these nitwits claim to support, but don't really) were screaming for armored vehicals and body armor, there's really no sense engaging them in discussions at all.

You can't have a rational discussion with bold faced liars like these, sport.

All you can do is mock them with their own words when it amuses you to do so.

For cimminies sake, let's not forget at the beginning of the war the military was left with all the duct-taped and bailingwired shit from being ignored for 8 years during the 90s.

Those doing the "crying" were selected by the media National Guardsmen.

When you want to go calling people liars, maybe you should consider thinking over your selective memory before slinging that label at someone else?

Or are you going to tell me you didn't pack sandbags in the floor of your jeep in Nam? And what about that 40 lb albatross flak jacket you wore THEN? It obviously wasn't better? Was Johnson fucking you over?

I don't much see you choose willful blindness for partisanship, but this is one of those times.

 

[Gunny]

Infantry: Troops Reject New Body Armor as Dangerous

Marines Call New Body Armor Heavy, Impractical

Wednesday, February 27, 2008

By Jennifer Griffin

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The Pentagon and Marine Corps authorized the purchase of 84,000 bulletproof vests in 2006 that not only are too heavy but are so impractical that some U.S. Marines are asking for their old vests back so they can remain agile enough to fight.

more ... FOXNews.com - Marines Call New Body Armor Heavy, Impractical - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

For Marines, 'MTV' Means Something New

WASHINGTON, Nov. 3, 2006

One of the things that made October such a bloody month for American troops was a dramatic increase in sniper attacks. The U.S. military refuses to say exactly how many sniper attacks there were or how successful they were on the ground; that is information the enemy could use.

But this will give you some idea: There were more sniper attacks in the first 10 days of October than in the entire month of September. There are insurgent videos on the Internet that show American soldiers being killed, along with an interview with a guy who claims to be the commander of the Baghdad sniper brigade. Boasting of his accomplishments, he says a book called "The Ultimate Sniper," produced by a former U.S. Army major and distributed by a U.S.-based publishing house, "is one of the main books we use to train our snipers."

I was looking into all of this, and as part of that story, went down to the Marine Corps base at Quantico, Va. to see a new body armor vest that will be issued to Marines heading to Iraq early next year.

The idea was to try on the body armor to see how protective it is against sniper fire. The Marine vest shields the torso against 7.62 millimeter ammunition (which is what an AK-47 fires) and below, but the head and the neck are still exposed. The helmet will stop shrapnel but not a round from a high-powered sniper rifle.

The Marines who were showing us the equipment said the Corps is spending $33 million for 60,000 of the new vests and that most of the improvements had come from ideas submitted by Marines fighting in Iraq.

more ... For Marines, 'MTV' Means Something New, Modular Tactical Vest Is Body Armor To Protect Against Sniper Fire - CBS News

Wow. A "mere" $33M. How dare they not spend more?

 

[Ravi]

Oh for crimminies sakes, Seal, if these folks are going to pretend that they cannot remember that at the beginning of the war our own troops (those would be the guys these nitwits claim to support, but don't really) were screaming for armored vehicals and body armor, there's really no sense engaging them in discussions at all.

You can't have a rational discussion with bold faced liars like these, sport.

All you can do is mock them with their own words when it amuses you to do so.

Not to mention they claimed the gutting of the military was Clinton's fault and yet knowing the military was gutted they chose to participate in an unneeded war.

 

[Ravi]

Was Johnson fucking you over?

Any president that misuses the troops is fucking us all over.

 

[editec]

For cimminies sake, let's not forget at the beginning of the war the military was left with all the duct-taped and bailingwired shit from being ignored for 8 years during the 90s.

What fucking difference does that make to the charge that the people Sealy is engaging are obviously lying right now?

None!

Those doing the "crying" were selected by the media National Guardsmen.

So?

When you want to go calling people liars, maybe you should consider thinking over your selective memory before slinging that label at someone else?

I call 'em as I see em, guns.

The debate I am engaged in is whether the military was ill equpped and did we KNOW they were?

They were, and now the people Sealy is debating choose to FORGET that.

Hence, I think they are lying to win a debate because they are not interested in the truth so much as they are interested in scoring points against what they imagine are liberals or some other childish motive.

Or are you going to tell me you didn't pack sandbags in the floor of your jeep in Nam? And what about that 40 lb albatross flak jacket you wore THEN? It obviously wasn't better? Was Johnson fucking you over?

I was not in Nam, Gunny.

I don't much see you choose willful blindness for partisanship, but this is one of those times.

I will remind you that my objection was to the lying assholes claiming that the troops sent to Iraq were properly equipped.

They were not, and we all KNEW that, just a few short years ago.

The selective memory system that these liars on the right are employing is obvious in this thread.

Or, are you going to tell me that we didn't read constantly about troops who died because they lacked proper body armor and vehicles?

You going to tell me I'm wrong about that, now, too?