Dirty Politics

[editec]

they werent under equipted
thats a total fabrication


you guys really need to seek out professional help for that ABDS

We can always count on you for fact-filled retorts, DC.

Way to make your case, sport.

 

[DiveCon]

We can always count on you for fact-filled retorts, DC.

Way to make your case, sport.

ok asshole, prove the troops were under equipped

 

[Moon]

ok asshole, prove the troops were under equipped

He can't because they weren't.

 

[Chris]

ok asshole, prove the troops were under equipped

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-12-17-turley_x.htm

 

[Moon]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-12-17-turley_x.htm

You missed this at the top of the page, didn't you?

 

[DiveCon]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-12-17-turley_x.htm

that editorial is a LIE
they had the best we had in the inventory
you DO understand what that means, right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

do you have a source showing McCain has said anything of the sort?

Jeepers is conducting his OWN smear, of course he has no proof, that is all the PROOF he needs.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I haven't forgot. I know exactly what you are talking about.

LOL, the troops were not UNDER equiped at all, Nor were the Hospitals in some abysmal state as you two claim. In fact the problem at Walter Reed was because of dumb shit policies by Democrats that make Government employees nearly impossible to fire even when they are utterly incompetent. Civilian Government employees caused or rather failed to fix the problems at Reed.

By the way dumb shits, if the Military WERE actually under Equipped it would have been because Clinton allowed it to happen. Since he was President for the 8 years leading up to Bush's first term and directly responsible for the equipment the Military had in 2002.

 

[DiveCon]

Jeepers is conducting his OWN smear, of course he has no proof, that is all the PROOF he needs.

amazing how that works for the libs
BOOKS of proof against their guys is nothing
not a shred of proof against our guys and they are all crooks

LOL, the troops were not UNDER equiped at all, Nor were the Hospitals in some abysmal state as you two claim. In fact the problem at Walter Reed was because of dumb shit policies by Democrats that make Government employees nearly impossible to fire even when they are utterly incompetent. Civilian Government employees caused or rather failed to fix the problems at Reed.

By the way dumb shits, if the Military WERE actually under Equipped it would have been because Clinton allowed it to happen. Since he was President for the 8 years leading up to Bush's first term and directly responsible for the equipment the Military had in 2002.

again, they are wanting to fight with the phantom equipment that isnt even in the inventory


i guess they are big supporters of dragonskin too

 

[CA95380]

LOL, the troops were not UNDER equiped at all, Nor were the Hospitals in some abysmal state as you two claim. In fact the problem at Walter Reed was because of dumb shit policies by Democrats that make Government employees nearly impossible to fire even when they are utterly incompetent. Civilian Government employees caused or rather failed to fix the problems at Reed.

By the way dumb shits, if the Military WERE actually under Equipped it would have been because Clinton allowed it to happen. Since he was President for the 8 years leading up to Bush's first term and directly responsible for the equipment the Military had in 2002.

Interesting. Then I wonder why my brothers Grandson Kyle asked for AA batteries in care packages we sent to him in Iraq in April 2003- for night goggles, and 'flea collars' to wear on their ankles to keep the flea's off of them. Maybe his Army unit was running low on batteries for their I-pod's to listen to music and the flea collars were for the pet dogs, in the field?

Here is a link if you want to take the time to read about him ...
DefendAmerica News - U.S. Army Pfc. Kyle Turner

 

[Denny Crane]

LOL, the troops were not UNDER equiped at all, Nor were the Hospitals in some abysmal state as you two claim. In fact the problem at Walter Reed was because of dumb shit policies by Democrats that make Government employees nearly impossible to fire even when they are utterly incompetent. Civilian Government employees caused or rather failed to fix the problems at Reed.

By the way dumb shits, if the Military WERE actually under Equipped it would have been because Clinton allowed it to happen. Since he was President for the 8 years leading up to Bush's first term and directly responsible for the equipment the Military had in 2002.

I don't recall saying anything about a hospital. I do know about not having the right equipment, and not enough of it. Surely you know of soldiers in the field upgrading the armor on patrol vehicles. They had equipment but it wasn't the equipment they needed for the gorilla tactics being used against them. If they had enough equipment they wouldn't have been taking the NG equipment to make up for shortfalls in Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving our NG without proper equipment to respond to disasters here at home. We were using equipment up faster than we were delivering it.

Then we had the personal body armor problem early in the war. You must recall parents of soldiers paying for some of it until adequate supplies of them were delivered.

Clinton didn't start a war, Bush did. Bush decided to go to war unprepared. He was "The Decider".

I didn't make any claimes about the Walter Reed Army Medical Center but I can see flaws in that statement as well.

 

[Denny Crane]

Interesting. Then I wonder why my brothers Grandson Kyle asked for AA batteries in care packages we sent to him in Iraq in April 2003- for night goggles, and 'flea collars' to wear on their ankles to keep the flea's off of them. Maybe his Army unit was running low on batteries for their I-pod's to listen to music and the flea collars were for the pet dogs, in the field?

Here is a link if you want to take the time to read about him ...
DefendAmerica News - U.S. Army Pfc. Kyle Turner

We had to send a bunch of stuff too, like toilet paper, sanitary wipes, sunscreen. There were others but I thought I'd add to the list.

 

[DiveCon]

Interesting. Then I wonder why my brothers Grandson Kyle asked for AA batteries in care packages we sent to him in Iraq in April 2003- for night goggles, and 'flea collars' to wear on their ankles to keep the flea's off of them. Maybe his Army unit was running low on batteries for their I-pod's to listen to music and the flea collars were for the pet dogs, in the field?

Here is a link if you want to take the time to read about him ...
DefendAmerica News - U.S. Army Pfc. Kyle Turner

that has more to do with logistics
and thats ALWAYS a problem

 

[DiveCon]

We had to send a bunch of stuff too, like toilet paper, sanitary wipes, sunscreen. There were others but I thought I'd add to the list.

again, LOGISTICS

not under equipped

 

[Chris]

that editorial is a LIE
they had the best we had in the inventory
you DO understand what that means, right?

From the link I posted....

I recently received a note from one of the few husbands who knows just what his wife wants as a holiday gift. The Army sergeant (who asked to remain anonymous) e-mailed me from Iraq asking my help in finding him a store to buy body armor for his wife.
Both the sergeant and his wife are serving in Iraq, and both have seen action. But, like thousands of U.S. soldiers, his wife was not given the vital ceramic plates for her Kevlar Interceptor vest to protect her from bullet wounds. Instead, he said, she had to scavenge to find plates left behind by Iraqi soldiers — plates of inferior quality that do not properly fit her vest.

The Pentagon confirms that at least 40,000 of the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq don't have basic Kevlar Interceptor vests or the ceramic plates needed for full protection.

As a law professor, I am more comfortable researching legal briefs than body armor, but I was thrown into this controversy in early September when I received a call from Richard Murphy, one of my students during his first year of law school. I wasn't surprised to hear from Richard, but I was a bit surprised that he was calling from Iraq. His Army Reserve unit had been called up, so he had taken a leave from school to serve. What came as a greater surprise was that Richard's mother had mailed him body armor because his entire unit was issued Vietnam-era flak jackets that are designed to stop shrapnel rather than bullets. The Interceptor vest can stop AK-47 rounds moving 2,750 feet a second.

Army Spc. John Fox must appreciate the difference. He was hit in the stomach by an AK-47 while on patrol in September in Fallujah. He was one of the lucky soldiers with a vest. The bullets set off three ammunition magazines and a smoke grenade he was carrying, The Washington Post reported. The vest protected him from the AK-47 rounds and the explosion of his own ammunition and grenade.

I first assumed that Murphy's unit was a mix-up. Then I called retailers and manufacturers of body armor and was told that they had been deluged by such orders from the families of soldiers.

A Pentagon procurement officer then told me Interceptor vests were "non-priority" items, like tents. Accordingly, the military had decided to slowly phase out the old flak jackets in a one-for-one exchange program over 10 years. We invaded Iraq in the fifth year.

After I wrote about this shortage in a September Los Angeles Times column, I received dozens of e-mails and calls from troops in Iraq giving their own accounts. Some wrote that they had taped plates on the backs of their flak jackets to try to get some protection. Other units, they wrote, shifted the available vests from soldier to soldier.

This "swap and share" approach has forced soldiers in American and British units to play a dangerous version of Russian roulette. The first British death in the war occurred after Sgt. Steve Roberts was forced to give up his plates and was then shot in the chest while on patrol, according to The London Daily Telegraph.

Sgt. Zachariah Byrd from Colorado was luckier. Shortly before his unit was ambushed, a friend gave him his Interceptor vest. Byrd was hit four times by fire from an AK-47 and survived only because of the last-minute swap.

At a September House hearing, Gen. John Abizaid, head of all military forces in Iraq, admitted he could not give House members a good reason "why we started this war with protective vests that were in short supply."

 

[Chris]

Guess you were wrong....

Defense Tech: TROOPS IN IRAQ: BODY ARMOR LACK

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Interesting. Then I wonder why my brothers Grandson Kyle asked for AA batteries in care packages we sent to him in Iraq in April 2003- for night goggles, and 'flea collars' to wear on their ankles to keep the flea's off of them. Maybe his Army unit was running low on batteries for their I-pod's to listen to music and the flea collars were for the pet dogs, in the field?

Here is a link if you want to take the time to read about him ...
DefendAmerica News - U.S. Army Pfc. Kyle Turner

Simply amazing. Batteries have a shelf life. And in heat they have a shorter shelf life. The amount of internal unit batteries does not equate to "poorly" equipped. Nor are flea collars for troops a standard issue item for troops. A peace time military thrust into a war is going to find its peace time procurement is not up to the tempo of a protracted conflict.

Add in the rotation of units and gear and the constant demands for more gear then they originally had and yes batteries are one of the things that for a while will be in short supply.

However that is a UNIT not a overall Military thing. Everyone works with budgets. I can assure you peace time military budgets are at a bare bones amount and driven by planned training and stockpiles are maintained based on tables from the LAST war. Units have to learn the new needs and then get funding and procurement for those new needs. NO ONE can know ahead of time what those will be.

Wanna hear a nightmare example of supply rules losing a battle? When the British went after the Zulu's in Africa in the mid to late 1800's they were fighting a spear armed army with modern rifles and artillery.

They brought along more than enough ammo and rifles for the job. AT the first BIG battle ( can't ever spell that Battles name) Ishanwaldi the main army moved out to find and engage the Zulu Army. The Zulu's slipped their army through rough terrain the British thought no army could pass through and struck the base camp.

Rules for supply stated how many bullets could be issued to a person or troop at any one time. The Supply chief enforced those rules. The Zulu kept charging into the fire of the British and due to the stupid issue ammo rule, the soldiers ran OUT of ammo at the firing points while wagon loads of it sat unopened and unissued.

Now take the next day at a small river crossing and 200 foot soldiers facing over 4000 Zulu Warriors. They had a huge supply of ammo. The Zulu did as they did the day before and kept rushing. The difference was that the supply chief here cracked open boxes of ammo and sent that ammo in boxes out to the soldiers holding the line. Good commanders and stout hearts and free flow of ammo and the Rourkes Rift held.

You can not go to war with anything except what you have in inventory. And you have to use the budgets your given. Command is then responsible to adjust those budgets and needs as they become apparent. It travels from the fire team leader all the way to Highest General, with lots of people in between.

As short falls are identified another problem comes in the new needs not having procurement sources. The US had to buy 5.56 ammo from Israel in the early days because our peace time suppliers could not keep up with the new tempo of needed ammo. We did not have the producers of the ammo to buy from until they geared up for the new demands.

That is the way WAR works. That is the way supply works. That is the way procurement works.

It takes YEARS in peace time to get new gear approved. In Iraq they have approved new things in weeks and months.

And they sometimes find out after doing that why it was so time consuming and tested before. Because that gee whiz item you want can not stand up to field environment and is no good to you in combat.

 

[DiveCon]

Guess you were wrong....

Defense Tech: TROOPS IN IRAQ: BODY ARMOR LACK

did you miss this?

"I can't answer for the record why we started this war with protective vests that were in short supply," Army Gen. John Abizaid, chief of the U.S. Central Command, told Congress last week.

AKA, they had what we had in INVENTORY


and i can answer the General, because we had 8 years of a POTUS(Clinton) that had no problem gutting the military, and a congress(controled by the GOP) that went along with him

 

[RetiredGySgt]

From the link I posted....

I recently received a note from one of the few husbands who knows just what his wife wants as a holiday gift. The Army sergeant (who asked to remain anonymous) e-mailed me from Iraq asking my help in finding him a store to buy body armor for his wife.
Both the sergeant and his wife are serving in Iraq, and both have seen action. But, like thousands of U.S. soldiers, his wife was not given the vital ceramic plates for her Kevlar Interceptor vest to protect her from bullet wounds. Instead, he said, she had to scavenge to find plates left behind by Iraqi soldiers — plates of inferior quality that do not properly fit her vest.

The Pentagon confirms that at least 40,000 of the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq don't have basic Kevlar Interceptor vests or the ceramic plates needed for full protection.

As a law professor, I am more comfortable researching legal briefs than body armor, but I was thrown into this controversy in early September when I received a call from Richard Murphy, one of my students during his first year of law school. I wasn't surprised to hear from Richard, but I was a bit surprised that he was calling from Iraq. His Army Reserve unit had been called up, so he had taken a leave from school to serve. What came as a greater surprise was that Richard's mother had mailed him body armor because his entire unit was issued Vietnam-era flak jackets that are designed to stop shrapnel rather than bullets. The Interceptor vest can stop AK-47 rounds moving 2,750 feet a second.

Army Spc. John Fox must appreciate the difference. He was hit in the stomach by an AK-47 while on patrol in September in Fallujah. He was one of the lucky soldiers with a vest. The bullets set off three ammunition magazines and a smoke grenade he was carrying, The Washington Post reported. The vest protected him from the AK-47 rounds and the explosion of his own ammunition and grenade.

I first assumed that Murphy's unit was a mix-up. Then I called retailers and manufacturers of body armor and was told that they had been deluged by such orders from the families of soldiers.

A Pentagon procurement officer then told me Interceptor vests were "non-priority" items, like tents. Accordingly, the military had decided to slowly phase out the old flak jackets in a one-for-one exchange program over 10 years. We invaded Iraq in the fifth year.

After I wrote about this shortage in a September Los Angeles Times column, I received dozens of e-mails and calls from troops in Iraq giving their own accounts. Some wrote that they had taped plates on the backs of their flak jackets to try to get some protection. Other units, they wrote, shifted the available vests from soldier to soldier.

This "swap and share" approach has forced soldiers in American and British units to play a dangerous version of Russian roulette. The first British death in the war occurred after Sgt. Steve Roberts was forced to give up his plates and was then shot in the chest while on patrol, according to The London Daily Telegraph.

Sgt. Zachariah Byrd from Colorado was luckier. Shortly before his unit was ambushed, a friend gave him his Interceptor vest. Byrd was hit four times by fire from an AK-47 and survived only because of the last-minute swap.

At a September House hearing, Gen. John Abizaid, head of all military forces in Iraq, admitted he could not give House members a good reason "why we started this war with protective vests that were in short supply."

I guess you missed the part about a 10 year procurement in PEACE time? I suggest you stick to kiddie cartoons it might be a subject you know something about.

 

[Denny Crane]

again, LOGISTICS

not under equipped

Is that right.

I wasn't referring to equipment when I made the comment, but since you want to split hairs, if I had to take a shit in a sandbox without toilet paper I would classify that as a lack of equipment to facilitate the removal of hazardous material.