Digging into Conservative 'values'

[Some Guy]

Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911?

Do you have proof, or even some convincing evidence, that all conservatives are to blame for 911?

What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis?

Do you have proof, or even some convincing evidence, that all conservatives created the housing crisis?

Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

All conservatives do this, huh? Wow. I'm surprised there aren't a lot more people in jail as a result.

We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money.

So you believe in total nanny state government, 100% tax rates, if "necessary" to "solve" "problems." Would it also be safe to say that you believe that no one outside of government is capable of solving any problems?

We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.

Which is wealth re-distribution, so nothing new here. Everyone knows that liberals believe in Robin Hood.

Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

Considering all liberals in the world are only concerned with seeing how badly they can punish others for their success by taking as much of their money away as possible and giving it away to others or simply keeping it for themselves, i would have to say that liberals are just as concerned with money, power and control, if not moreso, than conservatives. Imagine how much better this country would be if you liberals would put the time and effort into thinking of ways to produce a good or service that people would want instead of scheming ways to increase taxes and grab power.


Disclaimer: I don't believe all this, just fighting fire with fire, cause it's fun.

 

[rdean]

good grief, different day, same Bs rant.

it goes, we libs CARE more for people and LOVE big Guberment and the rest of you "selfish" lowlife who call yourselves a conservative, HATE all of humanity

Now you are presented with a fact that proves your post to be no more that hallucinatory self-gratification:

"A new book, titled Who Really Cares by Arthur C. Brooks examines the actual behavior of liberals and conservatives when it comes to donating their own time, money, or blood for the benefit of others.

People who identify themselves as conservatives donate money to charity more often than people who identify themselves as liberals. They donate more money and a higher percentage of their incomes.

It is not that conservatives have more money. Liberal families average 6 percent higher incomes than conservative families.

So is the fact that most of the states that voted for John Kerry during the 2004 election donated a lower percentage of their incomes to charity than the states that voted for George W. Bush.

Conservatives not only donate more money to charity than liberals do, conservatives volunteer more time as well. More conservatives than liberals also donate blood.

According to Professor Brooks: "If liberals and moderates gave blood at the same rate as conservatives, the blood supply of the United States would jump about 45 percent."

This study found young liberals to make the least charitable contributions of all, whether in money, time or blood. Idealism in words is not idealism in deeds."
Who Really Cares? - Thomas Sowell - National Review Online

Kind of makes your post look foolish, doesn't it?

Care to comment? Or retract?

I've heard this bullshit before and as soon as you start analyzing, it takes on an entirely different perspective.

For every dollar given to the federal government in a red state, they get more than a dollar back.

For every dollar given to the federal government in a blue state, they get less than a dollar back.

We know these statement to be true. The data has been posted many times on this board.

6% of scientists are Republican.

So what does all this prove? In the red states, poor people are just given money.

In the blue states, people are investments. There is a move to educate. To improve. Education is respected.

So while it SEEMS that Republican give more, their quality of giving is much, much less.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will feed his family for life. (Except in the gulf. Deregulation has fucked that up.)

 

[Some Guy]

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will feed his family for life.

There's another way for the man to feed his family for life. Give him welfare.

 

[PoliticalChic]

And once again PC is trying to pretend the progressives elected Wilson their spokesmen but alas she's given no proof they ever did that (again).

I usually expect others to do their own homework...

but I make exceptions for the illiterate, such as you appear, so here are some applicable quotes. From one of the books that I am currently reading:

Eugene Victor Debs, of Wilson: "Wilson is entering the campaign as a progressive..." Chace, "1912: Wilson, Roosevelt, Taft & Debs- The Election That Changed The Country,"p. 223

"Who would be the progressive chosen by the convention? Wilson himself, Champ Clark or Bryan, playing for a deadlock between the two front runners?" Ibid. p.150

"...Wilson had assumed the guise of progressive reformer..." (points out that TR was more progressive) p.204

"It was shrewd of Wilson to take this position: he not only once again displayed his progressive credentials..." Ibid. p. 149

'Wilson, of course, was merely one voice in the progressive chorus of the age. "We must demand that the individual shall be willing to lose the sense of personal achievement, and shall be content to realize his activity only in connection to the activity of the many." 'Goldberg, "Liberal Fascism," p. 87

"Wilson won the election of 1912 in an electoral college landslide, but with only 42% of the popular vote. He immediately set about to convert he Democratic Party into a progressive party..." Ibid. p.104

"President Wilson is mostly remembered today as the first modern liberal president, the first (and only) POTUS with a PhD, and the only political scientist to occupy the Oval Office. He was the champion of “self determination” and the author of the idealistic but doomed “Fourteen Points” – his vision of peace for Europe and his hope for a League of Nations. But the nature of his presidency has largely been forgotten."
The First “Progressive” President - Transterrestrial Musings

"President Wilson is mostly remembered today as the first modern liberal president. Arriving on the scene with such promise for the progressives, and leaving them jilted, he is perhaps most responsible for the liberals of today.The progressives, led by President Woodrow Wilson, placed their faith in reason and the better nature of the American people.A former college professor, first (and only) POTUS with a PhD was the first and probably the only president to have studied socialism, arguing that “in fundamental theory socialism and democracy are almost if not quite one and the same.”
1919: Betrayal and the Birth of Modern Liberalism by Fred Siegel, City Journal 22 November 2009

"In 1910 Wilson accepted the Democratic nomination for governor of New Jersey. He won the election in a landslide. His ambitious and successful Progressive agenda, centered around protecting the public from exploitation by trusts, earned him national recognition, and in 1912 he won the Democratic nomination for president. Wilson's "New Freedom" platform, focused on revitalization of the American economy, won him the presidency with 435 electoral votes out of 531 and a Democratic Congress."
WilsonCenter.org : About : About Woodrow Wilson

"Once in office, Wilson successfully pushed a decidedly progressive agenda, ..."
PBS - American Experience: Woodrow Wilson | Wilson- A Portrait

Have you been sufficiently put in your place?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Conservative values..

On the contrary, Progressive values.

Post #16 above amply proves same.

Or would you care to dispute any of it?

 

[PoliticalChic]

good grief, different day, same Bs rant.

it goes, we libs CARE more for people and LOVE big Guberment and the rest of you "selfish" lowlife who call yourselves a conservative, HATE all of humanity

Now you are presented with a fact that proves your post to be no more that hallucinatory self-gratification:

"A new book, titled Who Really Cares by Arthur C. Brooks examines the actual behavior of liberals and conservatives when it comes to donating their own time, money, or blood for the benefit of others.

People who identify themselves as conservatives donate money to charity more often than people who identify themselves as liberals. They donate more money and a higher percentage of their incomes.

It is not that conservatives have more money. Liberal families average 6 percent higher incomes than conservative families.

So is the fact that most of the states that voted for John Kerry during the 2004 election donated a lower percentage of their incomes to charity than the states that voted for George W. Bush.

Conservatives not only donate more money to charity than liberals do, conservatives volunteer more time as well. More conservatives than liberals also donate blood.

According to Professor Brooks: "If liberals and moderates gave blood at the same rate as conservatives, the blood supply of the United States would jump about 45 percent."

This study found young liberals to make the least charitable contributions of all, whether in money, time or blood. Idealism in words is not idealism in deeds."
Who Really Cares? - Thomas Sowell - National Review Online

Kind of makes your post look foolish, doesn't it?

Care to comment? Or retract?

I've heard this bullshit before and as soon as you start analyzing, it takes on an entirely different perspective.

For every dollar given to the federal government in a red state, they get more than a dollar back.

For every dollar given to the federal government in a blue state, they get less than a dollar back.

We know these statement to be true. The data has been posted many times on this board.

6% of scientists are Republican.

So what does all this prove? In the red states, poor people are just given money.

In the blue states, people are investments. There is a move to educate. To improve. Education is repsected.

So while it SEEMS that Republican give more, their quality of giving is much, much less.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will feed his family for life. (Except in the gulf. Deregulation has fucked that up.)

As usual, you haven't done the research...of course that never stops you from forming an opinion...but

Deanie-weanie, I have good news for you!

Southwest found yours!

"A Southwest Airlines employee called police after finding human heads in a package set to be transported to a Fort Worth medical research company, the airline said.

Heads on a Plane! | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth

 

[Foxfyre]

That is only because it was instituted under Bush. Had it been Clinton or Obama the numbers would have been similar, but reversed.

And don't kid yourself, the Democrats are more than satisfied with keeping it in place, now that they have control.

Immie

The USAPATRIOT Act passed in the Senate by a vote of 98-1.

Seems that being overbearing authoritarian snoops is one thing all demopublicraticans can agree on.

Who was the one Nay vote?

Feingold was the Nay vote. Landrieu didn't vote. Barack Obama was elected U.S. Senator in 2004.

 

[Oddball]

That is only because it was instituted under Bush. Had it been Clinton or Obama the numbers would have been similar, but reversed.

And don't kid yourself, the Democrats are more than satisfied with keeping it in place, now that they have control.

Immie

The USAPATRIOT Act passed in the Senate by a vote of 98-1.

Seems that being overbearing authoritarian snoops is one thing all demopublicraticans can agree on.

Seems I must not be a demopublicratican, because I have opposed it since day one.

Immie

Was talking about the political class, not we out in flyover country.

 

[Father Time]

The USAPATRIOT Act passed in the Senate by a vote of 98-1.

Seems that being overbearing authoritarian snoops is one thing all demopublicraticans can agree on.

Who was the one Nay vote?

Feingold was the Nay vote. Landrieu didn't vote. Barack Obama was elected U.S. Senator in 2004.

Yeah but I remember even on the campaign trail he said he wouldn't fight to get rid of it.

 

[Jarhead]

The USAPATRIOT Act passed in the Senate by a vote of 98-1.

Seems that being overbearing authoritarian snoops is one thing all demopublicraticans can agree on.

Who was the one Nay vote?

Feingold was the Nay vote. Landrieu didn't vote. Barack Obama was elected U.S. Senator in 2004.

Yes, I know about Sen. Obama. I was making a joke about how he mis-led the more naive about how he "voted against the iraq war"....

I believe the way he said it was something along the lines of:

"When the vote took place for the Iraq War I was one of the first to denounce the action"...

And many talked about how he voted against the Iraq War.

One thing for sure....He knows how to mislead without actually outright lying.

 

[skookerasbil]

distraction FTL....................

But I cant blame the k00ks for posting up fcukked up threads like this these days. Go take a gandor over to DRUDGE...........geez........if you're a lefty, it isnt pretty, not to mention 30 million people are also taking the same gandor over to DRUDGE today.


Meanwhile, liberalism is taking a fcukking bath..........but this should come as no suprise to any reasonable person. All you have to do is go back to 1968 and look at the candidacy of George McGovern. He was a liberal k00k and the whole country knew it and was soundly defeated by Hubert Humphrey. Liberal candidates have always been rejected by the American public. Obama just did an outstanding job of bamboozling the public.

If the American people knew that they know now back in the summer and fall of 2008, we'd still be looking for our first black president.

 

[Gadawg73]

Limited government, lower taxes, individual responsibility, and accountability, liberty, and honoring the traditions of our constitutional republic are supposed to be cornerstones of conservatives but are any of these things really conservative? Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911? They don't, they blame Democrats. What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis? They don't take any responsibility, they blame Democrats, its a pattern that repeats itself, blame the Democrats. Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

The other values all Americans hold dearly, liberals stress personal accountability and responsibility and hold themselves to the same standards they hold others, unlike conservatives. We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money. We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.


Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

Have you considered the possibility that the Democrats are the problem?

Now, a tutorial for your edification:
1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).

3) Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman. There should be a balance between permanence and change, while liberals see ‘progress’ as some mythical direction for society.

4) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

5) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

6) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it..” Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

7) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

8) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and “Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

9) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

10) Since Liberals see their view as a higher calling that that of Conservatives, they mistakenly believe that it is entirely appropriate for then to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects. Notice how the Liberal replaces intellect with emotion. This is, no doubt, based on a medieval concept of recognizing witches and demons. In fact, Liberals attempt to deal with opponents in similar fashion: recall Clarence Thomas’ “High Tech Lynching.”

What is a "moral truth" and what does that have to do with being a conservative?
A true conservative would never want morals, a family or personal matter, to be part of government.
Morals vary and are different for each religion, family, location, background and culture.
You want government to have a set of morals? That scares the shit out of me and I am a conservative.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Conservatives say "let me live my life the way I want to live my life, and you live your life the way you want to live your life

If that were true, conservatives would not be opposed to gay marriage, legalizing drugs, and abortion, among other things. Conservatives are certainly not a live and let live crowd and neither are so called liberals. Both groups try to force others to live within their parameters of morality.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Limited government, lower taxes, individual responsibility, and accountability, liberty, and honoring the traditions of our constitutional republic are supposed to be cornerstones of conservatives but are any of these things really conservative? Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911? They don't, they blame Democrats. What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis? They don't take any responsibility, they blame Democrats, its a pattern that repeats itself, blame the Democrats. Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

The other values all Americans hold dearly, liberals stress personal accountability and responsibility and hold themselves to the same standards they hold others, unlike conservatives. We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money. We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.


Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

This is so chalk full of fallacies that it really makes you look gullible and unintelligent. Just sayin.

 

[Misty]

Who was the one Nay vote?

Feingold was the Nay vote. Landrieu didn't vote. Barack Obama was elected U.S. Senator in 2004.

Yes, I know about Sen. Obama. I was making a joke about how he mis-led the more naive about how he "voted against the iraq war"....
I believe the way he said it was something along the lines of:

"When the vote took place for the Iraq War I was one of the first to denounce the action"...

And many talked about how he voted against the Iraq War.

One thing for sure....He knows how to mislead without actually outright lying.

excellent point. He is the misleader. Lol

 

[PoliticalChic]

Limited government, lower taxes, individual responsibility, and accountability, liberty, and honoring the traditions of our constitutional republic are supposed to be cornerstones of conservatives but are any of these things really conservative? Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911? They don't, they blame Democrats. What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis? They don't take any responsibility, they blame Democrats, its a pattern that repeats itself, blame the Democrats. Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

The other values all Americans hold dearly, liberals stress personal accountability and responsibility and hold themselves to the same standards they hold others, unlike conservatives. We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money. We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.


Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

Have you considered the possibility that the Democrats are the problem?

Now, a tutorial for your edification:
1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).

3) Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman. There should be a balance between permanence and change, while liberals see ‘progress’ as some mythical direction for society.

4) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

5) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

6) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it..” Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

7) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

8) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and “Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

9) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

10) Since Liberals see their view as a higher calling that that of Conservatives, they mistakenly believe that it is entirely appropriate for then to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects. Notice how the Liberal replaces intellect with emotion. This is, no doubt, based on a medieval concept of recognizing witches and demons. In fact, Liberals attempt to deal with opponents in similar fashion: recall Clarence Thomas’ “High Tech Lynching.”

What is a "moral truth" and what does that have to do with being a conservative?
A true conservative would never want morals, a family or personal matter, to be part of government.
Morals vary and are different for each religion, family, location, background and culture.
You want government to have a set of morals? That scares the shit out of me and I am a conservative.

1. An example of a moral truth is keeping ones' word. Another is the truth that an intact family is better for individuals, and for society. Especially compared to many alternative contemporary lifestyles. The dissolution of the family unit, and of marriage is demonstrably responsible for much of the crime problem. The explosion of personal wealth in the 1960’s when a record-long (nearly nine-year) American economic expansion occurred, fueled an all-out assault on bourgeois moral codes. Cultural Marxism and nihilism began the attack on Western norms as the orthodoxy within the political, intellectual, and cultural elites. Reality was shaped around individuals’ needs and desires: nothing was allowed to interfere with an individual’s right to instant gratification. Alternative lifestyles became mainstream and the counterculture became the norm. The family was undermined as the crucible of emotional and moral growth.

2. When morality became privatized, the questions “what is right” became “what is right for me.” Feelings rather than reason became the arbiters of behavior. Rather than traditional taboos, only religiously based moral judgment was deemed taboo. The harm caused to abandoned spouses or children by adultery or desertion- harm that can be objectively documented in rates of ill health, depression, educational underachievement, criminal behavior- was all but ignored, while damage done to people’s feelings by condemnation of their adultery or desertion was considered unforgiveable.

3. Classical liberalism, the optimistic doctrine that gave us liberty, democracy, progress, was a moral project. It held that human society could always better itself by encouraging the good and diminishing the bad. It rested, therefore, on a very clear understanding that there was a higher cause than self-realization: that there were such things as right and wrong and that the former should be preferred over the latter. But the belief that autonomous individuals had the right to make subjective judgment about what was right for them in pursuit of their unchallengeable entitlement to happiness destroyed that understanding. Progressives interpreted liberty as license, thus destroying the moral rules that make freedom a virtue.

4. You say 'Morals vary and are different for each religion, family, location, background and culture.' Once you decide that all of these permutations are equally valid, good and just, we lose an important strategy for human progress.

We tell ourselves that we stand for human rights, freedom, democracy, tolerance- yet we cannot uphold these principles because we espouse ‘multiculturalism,’ and, therefore, to prefer one culture over another is racist or xenophobic. Thus, a liberal society, by definition, cannot defend itself and must, apparently, accept its own obliteration.

Although much of the above is in my words, the ideas are largely from "The World Turned Upside Down," by Melanie Phillips.

She does a far better job than I in expressing them, and I recommend the book.

 

[Foxfyre]

Limited government, lower taxes, individual responsibility, and accountability, liberty, and honoring the traditions of our constitutional republic are supposed to be cornerstones of conservatives but are any of these things really conservative? Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911? They don't, they blame Democrats. What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis? They don't take any responsibility, they blame Democrats, its a pattern that repeats itself, blame the Democrats. Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

The other values all Americans hold dearly, liberals stress personal accountability and responsibility and hold themselves to the same standards they hold others, unlike conservatives. We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money. We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.


Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

This is so chalk full of fallacies that it really makes you look gullible and unintelligent. Just sayin.

It certainly doesn't track very well does it. The term that comes to mind in his logical progression there is: Ignoratio elenchi

 

[saveliberty]

Limited government, lower taxes, individual responsibility, and accountability, liberty, and honoring the traditions of our constitutional republic are supposed to be cornerstones of conservatives but are any of these things really conservative? Lets take individual responsibility, how many conservatives take responsibility for the mishandling of 911? They don't, they blame Democrats. What about the most recent recession and the housing and car industry crisis? They don't take any responsibility, they blame Democrats, its a pattern that repeats itself, blame the Democrats. Limited government, for what, to pocket more money from the people that have them paid off? Traditions of the constitution? They can't even rightfully interpret the constitution, they misuse the constitution to suit their dirt and hide behind it with distortions to protect their dirt and uneven distribution of wealth and power.

The other values all Americans hold dearly, liberals stress personal accountability and responsibility and hold themselves to the same standards they hold others, unlike conservatives. We want only as much government that is needed to solve problems and believe that since Americans pay taxes into the government to pay for politicians the government should help the people that pay taxes into it and not desert the people in times of need after taking our money. We believe in lower taxes also, for the poor who work multiple jobs to feed their families.


Where are the truly conservative values? I'll tell you, their values are more money, more power and more control of the country and its resources to the ones with the most money who's willing to pay for it.

Not sure they are specific values to conservatives either, but thanks for acknowledging we have values.

 

[sangha]

Now, a tutorial for your edification:
1) Conservatives believe that there are moral truths, right and wrong, and that these truths are permanent. The result of infracting these truths will be atrocities and social disaster. Liberals believe in a privatization of morality so complete that no code of conduct is generally accepted, practically to the point of ‘do what you can get away with’. These beliefs are aimed at the gratification of appetites and exhibit anarchistic impulses.

These "unchanging" moral truths include:

infidelity is an impeachable offense, except when it's done by 3 different republican majority leaders from the House who are impeaching a president for infidelity". Then, it's a "youthful indiscretion" even if they're 40 years old.

Marriage is "sacred" and needs protection so Michael Jackson could marry Elvis' baby girl.

receiving money from the govt and not doing anything in return breeds dependency, unless you're a half-term governor of Alaska

abstinence only sex ed works, and if you doubt it, just ask the unwed mother who wants to be a spokesperson for pro-life crowd

2) Conservatives believe that custom and tradition result in individuals living in peace. Law is custom and precedent. Liberals are destroyers of custom and convention. To a conservative, change should be gradual, as the new society is often inferior to the old. We build on the ideas and experience of our ancestors. The species is wiser than the individual (Burke).

This is why they opposed the abolition of slavery, the integration of our military, the abolition of Jim Crow, and the teaching of evolution

For all their predictions of doom, their predictions never come true, and they have no examples of it ever happening in the past

3) Liberals are impulsive, and imprudent. They believe in quick changes, and risk new abuses worse than the ‘evils’ that they would sweep away, since remedies are usually not simple. Plato said that prudence is the mark of the statesman. There should be a balance between permanence and change, while liberals see ‘progress’ as some mythical direction for society.

Because in wingnut world, getting rid of most of the govt is not a "quick change" and they hate it when taxes go down fast. And of course, bushs' invasion of Iraq was "prudent"

4) Conservatives believe in the principle of variety, while liberal perspectives result in a narrowing uniformity. Conservatives believe in choice of healthcare, education, religion, and various other areas. Under conservative principles, there will be differences in class, material condition and other inequalities. Equality will be of opportunity, not necessarily of result. The only uniformity will be before the law. Society will not be perfect. Consider the results of the rule of ideologues of the last century.

Conservatives don't believe in choice. Conservatives support monopolies which offer no choice because the "free market" allows monopolies. Conservatives believe in "choice" like chickens believe in KFC

Conservatives believe in free markets, where there is no need for choice. That's why they oppose choice in sex ed in schools and demand "abstinence only". That's why they don't want women to have the choice to abort their pregnancy. That's why they don't want people to have the choice to join a union.

5) Freedom and property are linked. Private property results in a more stable and productive society. Private property and retaining the fruits of one’s labor has been proven successful from the Puritan’s Bradford, to the Stakhanovite Revolution!

That's why Sweden is such a hotbed of dissent while Afghanistan, which allows private property, is such a peaceful land

6) Conservatives believe in voluntary community and charity, based on duties to each other, with the assumption that each person must do whatever he could to avoid requiring assistance, as opposed to involuntary collectivism, as in “let the government do it..” Burke's understanding that the "little platoon" - family, neighborhood, professional organizations etc - is the "first principle" of society has been consistently identified as providing the necessary inspiration for conservativism. And explains why conservatives give more to charity than liberals.

Which is why you'll never hear Palin complain about the oil royalty checks she gets every year just for having babies. It's why the teabaggers insist that the govt keep their hands of Medicare.

7) Conservatives view people as both good and bad, and for this reason believe on restraints on power, as in checks and balances, while liberals see power as a force for good, as long as the power is in their hands.

Which is why they believe in a Unitary Executive and why they beleive that signing statements have the force of law. It's why they supported the PATRIOT Act. To put a check on govt power

8) Liberals and Conservatives differ in the way to proceed. For Conservatives, data informs policy. (“More Guns, Less Crime” and “Mass murderers apparently can’t read, since they are constantly shooting up ‘gun-free zones.’”- Coulter) We use Conservative principles to the best of our ability, but when confronting new and original venues, we believe in testing, and analysis of the results of the tests. For liberals, feeling passes for knowing; it is based on emotion often to the exclusion of thinking.

For conservatives, "data" =

Obama is a socialist
Obama is a fascist
Obama is a Kenyan
Obama is Muslim who is a follower of a radical Christian clergyman

9) Conservatives view results differently from Liberals. Liberals respond to success and material wealth with envy and hostility, encourage class warfare and an attempt to obviate any chance that it might happen again. The exception is when it is a Liberal with the wealth. Conservatives see success as the validation and culmination of the application of Conservative principles, most prominently Liberty.

Conservatives hate it when poor people get money. It's why they hate the BP escrow fund.

10) Since Liberals see their view as a higher calling that that of Conservatives, they mistakenly believe that it is entirely appropriate for then to use, not logic, facts, nor accepted debating techniques, but ad hominem attacks on the physical appearance, personal history, or imaginary mental defects. Notice how the Liberal replaces intellect with emotion. This is, no doubt, based on a medieval concept of recognizing witches and demons. In fact, Liberals attempt to deal with opponents in similar fashion: recall Clarence Thomas’ “High Tech Lynching.”

This last one is too self-referential for me

 

[rightwinger]

Conservatives hate it when poor people get money. It's why they hate the BP escrow fund.