Dems should be very happy with Afghanistan policy

[☭proletarian☭]

So you are a socialist? Your symbolism is confusing me.

Either way, I find it ironic that you are concerned about the plight of the Afghan people while flying the hammer and sickle, the symbol of the soviets.

Like the Red Star, the H&S is used much more widely nowadays by many communist and socialist persons and entities. It represents the union of different aspects of the working class.

Okay fine.

When it was flown over Afghanistan, it represented the whole sale slaughter of innocents, rape, destruction of agricultural resources and starvation of the working class.

Sounds kinda like the British flag over India, the French over Vietnam, the US flag over a large chunk of the people who lived here....

If you prefer,

 

[geauxtohell]

Like the Red Star, the H&S is used much more widely nowadays by many communist and socialist persons and entities. It represents the union of different aspects of the working class.

Okay fine.

When it was flown over Afghanistan, it represented the whole sale slaughter of innocents, rape, destruction of agricultural resources and starvation of the working class.

Sounds kinda like the British flag over India, the French over Vietnam, the US flag over a large chunk of the people who lived here....

If you prefer,

Yeah. Just so we are clear and all.

The atrocities the Soviets inflicted on the Afghan people make My Lai look like Disneyland.

The events weren't isolated. They were systemic and part of the strategy. It did prove that total war can work in a place like Afghanistan, as the soviets would have crushed the Afghan resistance had we not intervened.

Once the HIND couldn't fly with impunity, the war changed drastically.

It also helped that the Soviet economy was collapsing.

Thus, there dreams of a warm water port in the Indian Ocean turned into a nightmare.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

And to beat back the Soviets, the USA trained the people who now kill us.

Funny the way things work out.

 

[geauxtohell]

And to beat back the Soviets, the USA trained the people who now kill us.

Funny the way things work out.

That is true. Though, the ISI trained them. We just funded and armed them.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend- until the other enemy is gone, then he's just my enemy again. I probably shouldn't give him guns...

 

[SFC Ollie]

It's the same story from the Democrats. Nothing has changed. We must set a schedule and we must let the entire world know what it is. And to hell with it if the enemy knows all our plans. It's only fair after all.

I've never been so glad to say I am US Army RETIRED.

the army feels the same about you

Get a job

 

[SFC Ollie]

Letting the Afghans know that we are not going to be there forever counters one of the enemies strongest propaganda lines; that we are there as conquerors and will be there forever

I agree - I think there is also the added benefit of lighting a fire under the Afghan gov't. to get their stuff in order ASAP because we aren't going to prop them up indefinitely.

It also reassures our allies that we aren't trying to drag them into a never-ending quagmire.

The Afghan Government and our Allies could have been informed without telling the entire world.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Letting the Afghans know that we are not going to be there forever counters one of the enemies strongest propaganda lines; that we are there as conquerors and will be there forever

I agree - I think there is also the added benefit of lighting a fire under the Afghan gov't. to get their stuff in order ASAP because we aren't going to prop them up indefinitely.

It also reassures our allies that we aren't trying to drag them into a never-ending quagmire.

The Afghan Government and our Allies could have been informed without telling the entire world.

The entire world is reassured. There is no downside to telling the entire world. There is significant upside.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I agree - I think there is also the added benefit of lighting a fire under the Afghan gov't. to get their stuff in order ASAP because we aren't going to prop them up indefinitely.

It also reassures our allies that we aren't trying to drag them into a never-ending quagmire.

The Afghan Government and our Allies could have been informed without telling the entire world.

The entire world is reassured. There is no downside to telling the entire world. There is significant upside.

I don't see it, but I guess we'll all see eventually.

 

[geauxtohell]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend- until the other enemy is gone, then he's just my enemy again. I probably shouldn't give him guns...

A scenario that is hardly limited to the United States, and if it were, is hardly limited to our involvement in Afghanistan.

I think we did the right thing in arming the Muj. Fuck the Russians. They deserved some payback from 'Nam and we couldn't allow them to get into Pakistan, which very well could have prompted a massive conflict.

Where we failed, was forgetting about Afghanistan after the Russians left.

If ever there was a mission for the UN, that was it.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Nam had shit to do with the Russians, dude. Nam was a war for independence on the part of the Vietnamese who didn't wish to be a French colonial state and be ruled from half the world away (sound familiar?) We were afraid that they would form a communist nation and undermine capitalist opportunities in the region. 'Domino theory' was the fear of losing large markets and, in turn, losing money.

 

[Claudette]

Interesting reading Geautohell. Sound like you were there when all this was going on. Either that or your a history buff.

I have freinds who have served in Afg. These guys, like you, say the Russians are universally hated by all Afghans. They also agree that half of what went on there, the atrocities, committed against the people will never be know.

No. Russians aren't the favorites of the Afghans. Imagine they would llike to play Buzkashi with a few heads instead of a goat or calf carcass.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Nam had shit to do with the Russians, dude. Nam was a war for independence on the part of the Vietnamese who didn't wish to be a French colonial state and be ruled from half the world away (sound familiar?) We were afraid that they would form a communist nation and undermine capitalist opportunities in the region. 'Domino theory' was the fear of losing large markets and, in turn, losing money.

some true - some spin

Communist China was seeking to extend THEIR grip into the region so they tappped into some dissatisfaction with the current French Colonial rule in Vietnam and starting whipping up a rebelion.
The U.S. eventually stepped in whipping up their own counter.
The war was the result of TWO outside powers trying to dictate terms to the people of Vietnam - the people themselves just knew they didn't like the status quo.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The people of Vietnam raised the red flag. It was after foreign attempts to suppress it that China took a truly large role in matters beyond financial support and propaganda.

 

[geauxtohell]

Nam had shit to do with the Russians, dude. Nam was a war for independence on the part of the Vietnamese who didn't wish to be a French colonial state and be ruled from half the world away (sound familiar?) We were afraid that they would form a communist nation and undermine capitalist opportunities in the region. 'Domino theory' was the fear of losing large markets and, in turn, losing money.

The Russians and Chinese supported Ho Chi Minh in the same manner that we supported the Pashtun. Dude.

All the rest I know and agree with.

Have you read "A Street Without Joy" by Fall? It's one of the best books I have ever read.

Fall called it in 1961. Unfortunately, we weren't listening.

 

[geauxtohell]

Interesting reading Geautohell. Sound like you were there when all this was going on. Either that or your a history buff.

I have freinds who have served in Afg. These guys, like you, say the Russians are universally hated by all Afghans. They also agree that half of what went on there, the atrocities, committed against the people will never be know.

No. Russians aren't the favorites of the Afghans. Imagine they would llike to play Buzkashi with a few heads instead of a goat or calf carcass.

I was there (Paktika Province March '04 to March '05).

Inherent to being there is reading up on the matter.

In that regard, the best book I can recommend is "Ghost Wars" by Coll.

An outstanding read if anyone want's to know what happened in Afghanistan from 1978 to September 10th 2001.

 

[nodoginnafight]

"the people" have NEVER raised a red flag in ANY country. They've tossed them aside - MANY times. In fact, almost EVERY time it has been foisted upon them.

I've never seen a communist/Socialist government that wasn't afraid of their own people - that in and of itself says a lot.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Nam had shit to do with the Russians, dude. Nam was a war for independence on the part of the Vietnamese who didn't wish to be a French colonial state and be ruled from half the world away (sound familiar?) We were afraid that they would form a communist nation and undermine capitalist opportunities in the region. 'Domino theory' was the fear of losing large markets and, in turn, losing money.

The Russians and Chinese supported Ho Chi Minh in the same manner that we supported the Pashtun. Dude.

All the rest I know and agree with.

Have you read "A Street Without Joy" by Fall? It's one of the best books I have ever read.

Fall called it in 1961. Unfortunately, we weren't listening.

Sounds interesting. I'll check my favorite socialist venture, the public library, for a copy

 

[☭proletarian☭]

"the people" have NEVER raised a red flag in ANY country. .

Communist revolutions throughout history

The following is a list of communist revolutions throughout history. The most significant ones are marked in bold. Among the lesser known revolutions, a number of borderline cases have been included which may or may not have been communist revolutions. The nature of unsuccessful revolutions is particularly contentious since one can only speculate as to the kinds of policies that would have been implemented by the revolutionaries had they achieved victory.

* The 1917 communist revolution in Russia, known as the October Revolution and a part of the Russian Revolution. It resulted in the victory of the Bolsheviks and the creation of Soviet Russia, the predecessor of the Soviet Union.

* The German Revolution of 1918-1919, led by Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, which ended in defeat for the communists.

* The creation of the short-lived Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, which was defeated within a month by the German army and Freikorps.

* The Hungarian revolution of 1919, led by Béla Kun, which was also eventually defeated.

* The Chinese Communist Revolution, final stage of the Chinese Civil War (1926-1949), that resulted in the victory of the Communist Party of China on mainland China in 1949.

* 1941-1945 People's Liberation War in Yugoslavia is waged by the Yugoslav Partisans under the command of Josip Broz Tito with Allied support against the invading forces of Nazi Germany and the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustase. The victorious partisans establish the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

* The August Revolution 1945 creating the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

* The Proclamation of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in 1948, when the Soviet-backed Workers Party of Korea, led by Kim Il-sung, announced the formation of the state of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

* The Cuban Revolution of 1959 was a communist revolution lead by Fidel Castro which overthrew former president Fulgencio Batista and instated a socialist regime in Cuba. Even though Fulgencio Batista had been elected for his first term, he got himself into power for his second term through a coup d'etat.

* Internal Conflict in Peru (1980-present) Comprised two rebellions by two different Marxist organizations. The Communist Party of Peru, also known as the "Shining Path" fought a bloody war beginning in 1980 with successive Peruvian governments both democratic and authoritarian in nature and independent paramilitaries organized by the government known as Ronda Campesina. The Shining Path attempted to enforce a very extreme brand of communism inspired by the beliefs of Mao Zedong the leader of the People's Republic of China from 1949-1976. The Shining Path opposed any form of democracy and committed numerous human rights violations. Another organization, known as the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), named after an Incan warrior Tupac Amaru began their own rebellion in 1982. The MRTA did not adhere to Maoism like the Shining Path, claimed to be fighting for democracy, believed in a more mainstream version of communism and modelled their movement on other leftwing guerrilla groups in Latin America. The MRTA and Shining Path quickly became bitter enemies and fought one another as well as the government of Peru. During the war atrocities were committed on all sides, but mostly by the Shining Path and the Peruvian military. Fighting goes on today with a small number of Shining Path cadres, however the movement has mostly been crushed and only operates in a very remote jungle region. Since the capture of Shining Path leader Abimael Guzman the organization has lost most of its earlier support. the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement was largely destroyed in 1997 after the Japanese embassy hostage crisis.

* The Indonesian revolution and Communist Party of Indonesia support for President Sukarno, which ended when Indonesian General Suharto removed President Sukarno from power and defeated the Communist Party of Indonesia, in 1965-1966.

* The First Indochina War in Vietnam that resulted in the defeat of the French at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, 1954, and brought the Communist Party of Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh to power in North Vietnam – a victory followed closely by the protracted guerrilla warfare-dominated Vietnam War (1957-1975), which in turn led to the Fall of Saigon and the driving-out of occupying U.S. military forces there, and the unification of North and South Vietnam by communist guerrilla forces into the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The conflict drastically changed neighboring Laos and Cambodia.

* The victory of the communist Pathet Lao/Lao People's Revolutionary Party in Laos by 1975, elinmating a coalition government with anti-communists led to the establishment of the communist-administered Lao People's Democratic Republic.

* The victory of the communist Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in 1975, establishing the Maoist regime known as "Democratic Kampuchea," with Pol Pot as dictator. In 1979 it was overthrown by former allies: communist neighbor Vietnam and another communist party faction, reconstituted as the Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party.

* The Malayan Emergency when the Malayan Communist Party and communist guerillas fought against, and were defeated by, British and Malayan forces, 1948-1960.

* Maoist-styled "Protracted People's War" in the Philippines, launched by the New People's Army in 1969 and continuing at present

* The overthrow of Emperor Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia by Mengistu Haile Mariam who then set up one-party Marxist-Leninist rule in Ethiopia by the communist Workers' Party of Ethiopia, 1977-1991, until they were defeated and expelled by the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front during a subsequent civil war.

* The 1978 the Saur Revolution that brought the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan to power in Afghanistan. They were overthrown by the mujahedin in 1992.[1]

* The overthrow of Eric Gairy that brought the New Jewel Movement to power in Grenada from 1979 until 1983, when they were deposed by a U.S.-led invasion.

* The 1979 revolution that overthrew the dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle and brought the Sandanistas to power in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1990.

* From 1996-2006, the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) fought a fairly successful revolutionary war against the autocratic King of Nepal. In 2006 peace was declared, and an agreement was reached that the Maoist would join an interim government.

* In India, various Maoist-oriented factions (generally called Naxalites) have waged armed struggles since Naxalbari rebellion of 1967. Today, the most prominent Naxalite group is the Communist Party of India (Maoist).

Communist revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[nodoginnafight]

"the people" have NEVER raised a red flag in ANY country. .

Communist revolutions throughout history

The following is a list of communist revolutions throughout history. The most significant ones are marked in bold. Among the lesser known revolutions, a number of borderline cases have been included which may or may not have been communist revolutions. The nature of unsuccessful revolutions is particularly contentious since one can only speculate as to the kinds of policies that would have been implemented by the revolutionaries had they achieved victory.

* The 1917 communist revolution in Russia, known as the October Revolution and a part of the Russian Revolution. It resulted in the victory of the Bolsheviks and the creation of Soviet Russia, the predecessor of the Soviet Union.

* The German Revolution of 1918-1919, led by Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, which ended in defeat for the communists.

* The creation of the short-lived Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, which was defeated within a month by the German army and Freikorps.

* The Hungarian revolution of 1919, led by Béla Kun, which was also eventually defeated.

* The Chinese Communist Revolution, final stage of the Chinese Civil War (1926-1949), that resulted in the victory of the Communist Party of China on mainland China in 1949.

* 1941-1945 People's Liberation War in Yugoslavia is waged by the Yugoslav Partisans under the command of Josip Broz Tito with Allied support against the invading forces of Nazi Germany and the pro-Nazi Croatian Ustase. The victorious partisans establish the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

* The August Revolution 1945 creating the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

* The Proclamation of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in 1948, when the Soviet-backed Workers Party of Korea, led by Kim Il-sung, announced the formation of the state of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

* The Cuban Revolution of 1959 was a communist revolution lead by Fidel Castro which overthrew former president Fulgencio Batista and instated a socialist regime in Cuba. Even though Fulgencio Batista had been elected for his first term, he got himself into power for his second term through a coup d'etat.

* Internal Conflict in Peru (1980-present) Comprised two rebellions by two different Marxist organizations. The Communist Party of Peru, also known as the "Shining Path" fought a bloody war beginning in 1980 with successive Peruvian governments both democratic and authoritarian in nature and independent paramilitaries organized by the government known as Ronda Campesina. The Shining Path attempted to enforce a very extreme brand of communism inspired by the beliefs of Mao Zedong the leader of the People's Republic of China from 1949-1976. The Shining Path opposed any form of democracy and committed numerous human rights violations. Another organization, known as the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), named after an Incan warrior Tupac Amaru began their own rebellion in 1982. The MRTA did not adhere to Maoism like the Shining Path, claimed to be fighting for democracy, believed in a more mainstream version of communism and modelled their movement on other leftwing guerrilla groups in Latin America. The MRTA and Shining Path quickly became bitter enemies and fought one another as well as the government of Peru. During the war atrocities were committed on all sides, but mostly by the Shining Path and the Peruvian military. Fighting goes on today with a small number of Shining Path cadres, however the movement has mostly been crushed and only operates in a very remote jungle region. Since the capture of Shining Path leader Abimael Guzman the organization has lost most of its earlier support. the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement was largely destroyed in 1997 after the Japanese embassy hostage crisis.

* The Indonesian revolution and Communist Party of Indonesia support for President Sukarno, which ended when Indonesian General Suharto removed President Sukarno from power and defeated the Communist Party of Indonesia, in 1965-1966.

* The First Indochina War in Vietnam that resulted in the defeat of the French at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, 1954, and brought the Communist Party of Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh to power in North Vietnam – a victory followed closely by the protracted guerrilla warfare-dominated Vietnam War (1957-1975), which in turn led to the Fall of Saigon and the driving-out of occupying U.S. military forces there, and the unification of North and South Vietnam by communist guerrilla forces into the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The conflict drastically changed neighboring Laos and Cambodia.

* The victory of the communist Pathet Lao/Lao People's Revolutionary Party in Laos by 1975, elinmating a coalition government with anti-communists led to the establishment of the communist-administered Lao People's Democratic Republic.

* The victory of the communist Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in 1975, establishing the Maoist regime known as "Democratic Kampuchea," with Pol Pot as dictator. In 1979 it was overthrown by former allies: communist neighbor Vietnam and another communist party faction, reconstituted as the Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party.

* The Malayan Emergency when the Malayan Communist Party and communist guerillas fought against, and were defeated by, British and Malayan forces, 1948-1960.

* Maoist-styled "Protracted People's War" in the Philippines, launched by the New People's Army in 1969 and continuing at present

* The overthrow of Emperor Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia by Mengistu Haile Mariam who then set up one-party Marxist-Leninist rule in Ethiopia by the communist Workers' Party of Ethiopia, 1977-1991, until they were defeated and expelled by the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front during a subsequent civil war.

* The 1978 the Saur Revolution that brought the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan to power in Afghanistan. They were overthrown by the mujahedin in 1992.[1]

* The overthrow of Eric Gairy that brought the New Jewel Movement to power in Grenada from 1979 until 1983, when they were deposed by a U.S.-led invasion.

* The 1979 revolution that overthrew the dictator Anastasio Somoza Debayle and brought the Sandanistas to power in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1990.

* From 1996-2006, the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) fought a fairly successful revolutionary war against the autocratic King of Nepal. In 2006 peace was declared, and an agreement was reached that the Maoist would join an interim government.

* In India, various Maoist-oriented factions (generally called Naxalites) have waged armed struggles since Naxalbari rebellion of 1967. Today, the most prominent Naxalite group is the Communist Party of India (Maoist).

Communist revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yup, communists have tried to shove their ideology down people's throats a LOT haven't they? I noticed none on your list WERE VOTED into power were they? Always by force of violence - wonder why?

Of course the first thing they have to do - IF they succeed - is disarm their own people, spy on their own people, and do everything within their power to protect their new government from the people they govern.

So much for the "consent of the governed", huh?