Deficit shrinking faster than any time since WWII

[Toddsterpatriot]

You have it about right. The difference is, you see no problem with letting the auto companies go out of business. Most of the population of the country does.
Hell, how many months of blowing holes in the sand in Iraq used up $20B? About 2. What was your stance on that, Todd. Iraq equals about $9B a month, per the CBO, and we see a large number of us servicemen dead. The only sure gain was for the military industrial complex. Who did really well. But we spend a couple months equivilent of the Iraq war saving the auto industry in this country, and you just don't like it. About 1.5 million jobs saved, and ongoing employment for years to come.
Cmon, Todd. You're smarter than that. Only con tools are making the argument you are making.

The difference is, you see no problem with letting the auto companies go out of business.

Bankruptcy doesn't mean they go out of business, as you should know.

I do. But in this case, pretty much all experts agreed there were no white knights. It would have been liquidation. Maybe toyota would have gained some nice new machine tools. But even ford agreed, a bailout was needed. Hell, even W agreed it had to be done.

But in this case, pretty much all experts agreed there were no white knights.

Why do you need a white knight?
Write down their debt and rewrite their union contracts.
Why liquidate?

 

[Rshermr]

The difference is, you see no problem with letting the auto companies go out of business.

Bankruptcy doesn't mean they go out of business, as you should know.

I do. But in this case, pretty much all experts agreed there were no white knights. It would have been liquidation. Maybe toyota would have gained some nice new machine tools. But even ford agreed, a bailout was needed. Hell, even W agreed it had to be done.

But in this case, pretty much all experts agreed there were no white knights.

Why do you need a white knight?
Write down their debt and rewrite their union contracts.
Why liquidate?

the union contracts were rewritten. More than once. And there was no chance that rewriting them again was going to help. relative to writing down their debts, that is a decision that the bankrupcy court would have made. And all indications were that that would not have happened. So, why liquidate. Again, not their choice.
Apparently you are missing the point. Lots of very large companies go through bankruptcy, and most do liquidate. But, Todd, to simplify things, consider Ford. They did not need the money. They were doing well. And yet, when they were asked to testify to congress, the CEO recommended the bailout should occur, or allow the US auto industry to go out of business. So, check in with Mullaly and see what his reasoning was. Electronically, of course. Or check in with W and see why he supported it.

 

[Rshermr]

And Paul Krugman says prepare for a fake alien invasion. Are you always so blatantly a herd sheep?

Yes. And a brilliant economist made this assertion seriously. Not tongue in cheek. funny how cons have no sense of humor. but then, this is step, and step is not too smart.

 

[Toronado3800]

The auto industry seems rather important to me. Then again to a citizen of the world I can see where a lack of American industry does not matter as much.....unless you want the U.S. military to come bail you out.

 

[Koios]

Romney advocated letting it run its course

Without government assistance?

but instead government intervention prevented job losses and economic hardship.

And it only cost us about $20 billion, IIRC.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers. Only judges overseeing distribution of cash to creditors.

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry, which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries and we would have thus been abject retards to have done as Romney advocated.

Thankfully a majority of voters agreed.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers.

Really? No backup for warranties?
Are you sure?

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry

Why do you feel it is critical?

which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries

How'd that work out for the British auto industry?

Yes; secured creditors get top attention, and warranty-holders are thus, to a degree. In an 11-banko, folks are merely held at bay and taken care of over time, if possible, sans government funding (only oversight). If that's not a likely outcome, the court can force a 7-banko.

 

[Koios]

Romney advocated letting it run its course

Without government assistance?

but instead government intervention prevented job losses and economic hardship.

And it only cost us about $20 billion, IIRC.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers. Only judges overseeing distribution of cash to creditors.

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry, which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries and we would have thus been abject retards to have done as Romney advocated.

Thankfully a majority of voters agreed.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers.

Really? No backup for warranties?
Are you sure?

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry

Why do you feel it is critical?

which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries

How'd that work out for the British auto industry?

Because it's one of the 7 critical industries, in modern industrial economies. Other include information services, i.e., Microsoft. Also aircraft industries, i.e. Boeing. It's thus not my opinion / feeling, it's how the industry is defined.

Does that help?

 

[Koios]

Romney advocated letting it run its course

Without government assistance?

but instead government intervention prevented job losses and economic hardship.

And it only cost us about $20 billion, IIRC.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers. Only judges overseeing distribution of cash to creditors.

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry, which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries and we would have thus been abject retards to have done as Romney advocated.

Thankfully a majority of voters agreed.

Yes. Without assistance from taxpayers.

Really? No backup for warranties?
Are you sure?

The cost is a pittance compared to the payback of a rescued critical industry

Why do you feel it is critical?

which is heavily subsidized in all industrial countries

How'd that work out for the British auto industry?

Better than without, obviously, albeit not as well as China, Japan, S Korea, Germany and the US, which also subsidize their auto and other critical industries, making their countries more competitive on the global stage.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

And Paul Krugman says prepare for a fake alien invasion. Are you always so blatantly a herd sheep?

Yes. And a brilliant economist made this assertion seriously. Not tongue in cheek. funny how cons have no sense of humor. but then, this is step, and step is not too smart.

of course if 100% perfect idiot liberals want us to prepare for an alien invasion they would not be so afraid to explain why this would be a good thing.

What does your fear tell us about the liberal IQ and character?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Better than without, obviously, albeit not as well as China, Japan, S Korea, Germany and the US, which also subsidize their auto and other critical industries, making their countries more competitive on the global stage.

too stupid and illiterate and 100% liberal. Obozo thought Solyndra and A123 Systems were critical industries and so wasted $1 billion.
Moreover, if you subsidize industries you merely start a trade war like the one that caused the Great Depression. Now even a liberal can understand why nearly all economists support free trade. Moreover, picking critical industries to suppport just means you are discriminating against other industries which may actually be the critical industries.

 

[Koios]

Better than without, obviously, albeit not as well as China, Japan, S Korea, Germany and the US, which also subsidize their auto and other critical industries, making their countries more competitive on the global stage.

too stupid and illiterate and 100% liberal. Obozo thought Solyndra and A123 Systems were critical industries and so wasted $1 billion.
Moreover, if you subsidize industries you merely start a trade war like the one that caused the Great Depression. Now even a liberal can understand why nearly all economists support free trade. Moreover, picking critical industries to suppport just means you are discriminating against other industries which may actually be the critical industries.

Nope. Solar is not a critical industry. Just something that's politically popular to support, and potentially something more, some day.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Nope. Solar is not a critical industry. Just something that's politically popular to support, and potentially something more, some day.

too bad Obozo thinks it is and the Republican free makets thinks it isn't. So which Nazi liberal gets to decide whats critical in every sphere of our lives??

See why liberalism is so inefficient?? Simply enough for a liberal??

 

[Koios]

Nope. Solar is not a critical industry. Just something that's politically popular to support, and potentially something more, some day.

too bad Obozo thinks it is and the Republican free makets thinks it isn't. So which Nazi liberal gets to decide whats critical in every sphere of our lives??

See why liberalism is so inefficient?? Simply enough for a liberal??

Yeah; but we're not the drooling idiots that Cons on this godforesaken site are. So there's that.

You feel me, Ed?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Yeah; but we're not the drooling idiots that Cons on this godforesaken site are.

of course liberals are drooling brainwashed idiots and its easy to prove too:

please say something intelligent and substantive in support of liberalism.

 

[Koios]

Yeah; but we're not the drooling idiots that Cons on this godforesaken site are.

of course liberals are drooling brainwashed idiots and its easy to prove too:

please say something intelligent and substantive in support of liberalism.

Okay; it's the antithesis of what that dimwitted nincumpoop, EdwardBaiamonte, believes. So one might posit that the opposite of studity is intelligence by default.

That work for ya, Ed?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Yeah; but we're not the drooling idiots that Cons on this godforesaken site are.

of course liberals are drooling brainwashed idiots and its easy to prove too:

please say something intelligent and substantive in support of liberalism

.

Okay; it's the antithesis of what that dimwitted nincumpoop, EdwardBaiamonte, believes. So one might posit that the opposite of studity is intelligence by default.

That work for ya, Ed?

1) please say something intelligent and "substantive" in support of liberalism.... or admit once again as a liberal you lack the IQ to do so.

 

[Koios]

of course liberals are drooling brainwashed idiots and its easy to prove too:

please say something intelligent and substantive in support of liberalism

.

Okay; it's the antithesis of what that dimwitted nincumpoop, EdwardBaiamonte, believes. So one might posit that the opposite of studity is intelligence by default.

That work for ya, Ed?

1) please say something intelligent and "substantive" in support of liberalism.... or admit once again as a liberal you lack the IQ to do so.

Okay; Liberalism came into being due to the extreme exploits of robber barrons during the Industrial Revolution, when laissez-faire ruled creating 7 day a week labor, by everyone in the family, including children, with wages that left them in abject poverty.

It took many forms and spawned myriad ideas, but the West picked the winner: wage minimums, labor organizing, worker protections and progressive taxes on incomes that reduced inequality. The result was the Great American Middle Class, the envy of the world and the most powerful economic force (huge business opportunity) in the history of the planet.

Liberalism is what made America great, and returning to Conservative laissez-faire bullshit ideas is both bringing America down, in terms of its middle class; and worse: spawning abject stupdity with its pseudo-economic horseshit information campaign via Right Wing Media. No kidding. Retards popping up like daisies, buying into the stupidy, even after near 30 years of its utter failure. Can you imagine anyone being that stupid? But they are, and they're all around. Hell; just look in the mirror.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Okay; Liberalism came into being due to the extreme exploits of robber barrons during the Industrial Revolution,

1000% stupid and 5000% illiterate and 10,000 liberal. Do you enjoy being stupid?

Here are the exploits of the so called Robber Barons:

The Robber Barons: Republicans Greatest Shame!

From: The Myth of The Robber Barrons by Forest McDonald


Edward Collins $33,000 per Atlantic crossing (page 7)
Cornelius Vanderbilt (robber barron) $15,000 per Atlantic crossing

Collins $600 NY to California
Vanderbilt (robber barron) 150 NY to California( page 12)


"James J Hill cut freight costs from 90 cents to 44 cents a pound" (page 34) and still made a profit while the heavily subsidized Union Pacific and Central Pacific always lost money

"Coopers charged 2.50 per barrel Rockefeller cut his to $.96" (Page 86)

"From 1865 to 1870, the price of kerosene dropped from 58 to 26 cents per gallon,
Rockefeller made profits during everyone of these years" (page 87)

"Before 1870, only the rich could afford whale oil and candles, The rest had to go to bed to save money. By 1870 with the drop in the price of Kerosene, the middle and working class people all over the nation could afford the one cent an hour that it cost to light their homes at night".( page 87)

"When Andrew Carnegie entered steel production in 1872, England dominated world production and the price of steel production was $56 per ton. By 1900 Carnegie Steel was manufacturing steel for $11.00 per ton and out stripping the entire production of England!" (page 126)

 

[Koios]

Okay; Liberalism came into being due to the extreme exploits of robber barrons during the Industrial Revolution,

1000% stupid and 5000% illiterate and 10,000 liberal. Do you enjoy being stupid?

Here are the exploits of the so called Robber Barons:

The Robber Barons: Republicans Greatest Shame!

From: The Myth of The Robber Barrons by Forest McDonald


Edward Collins $33,000 per Atlantic crossing (page 7)
Cornelius Vanderbilt (robber barron) $15,000 per Atlantic crossing

Collins $600 NY to California
Vanderbilt (robber barron) 150 NY to California( page 12)


"James J Hill cut freight costs from 90 cents to 44 cents a pound" (page 34) and still made a profit while the heavily subsidized Union Pacific and Central Pacific always lost money

"Coopers charged 2.50 per barrel Rockefeller cut his to $.96" (Page 86)

"From 1865 to 1870, the price of kerosene dropped from 58 to 26 cents per gallon,
Rockefeller made profits during everyone of these years" (page 87)

"Before 1870, only the rich could afford whale oil and candles, The rest had to go to bed to save money. By 1870 with the drop in the price of Kerosene, the middle and working class people all over the nation could afford the one cent an hour that it cost to light their homes at night".( page 87)

"When Andrew Carnegie entered steel production in 1872, England dominated world production and the price of steel production was $56 per ton. By 1900 Carnegie Steel was manufacturing steel for $11.00 per ton and out stripping the entire production of England!" (page 126)

Shit. I was hoping you'd offer up a bit of reciprocity, and respond intelligently, yourself, and not just copy-paste the cherry-picked nonesense being fed to the retards that are poppin up like daisies vis a vis the RWM, whose nonsense it is you're pasting.

Someone please, bring me a Diazepam. How will I cope with the disappointment?????

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Okay; Liberalism came into being due to the extreme exploits of robber barrons during the Industrial Revolution,

1000% stupid and 5000% illiterate and 10,000 liberal. Do you enjoy being stupid?

Here are the exploits of the so called Robber Barons:

The Robber Barons: Republicans Greatest Shame!

From: The Myth of The Robber Barrons by Forest McDonald


Edward Collins $33,000 per Atlantic crossing (page 7)
Cornelius Vanderbilt (robber barron) $15,000 per Atlantic crossing

Collins $600 NY to California
Vanderbilt (robber barron) 150 NY to California( page 12)


"James J Hill cut freight costs from 90 cents to 44 cents a pound" (page 34) and still made a profit while the heavily subsidized Union Pacific and Central Pacific always lost money

"Coopers charged 2.50 per barrel Rockefeller cut his to $.96" (Page 86)

"From 1865 to 1870, the price of kerosene dropped from 58 to 26 cents per gallon,
Rockefeller made profits during everyone of these years" (page 87)

"Before 1870, only the rich could afford whale oil and candles, The rest had to go to bed to save money. By 1870 with the drop in the price of Kerosene, the middle and working class people all over the nation could afford the one cent an hour that it cost to light their homes at night".( page 87)

"When Andrew Carnegie entered steel production in 1872, England dominated world production and the price of steel production was $56 per ton. By 1900 Carnegie Steel was manufacturing steel for $11.00 per ton and out stripping the entire production of England!" (page 126)[/QUOTE]

Shit. I was hoping you'd offer up a bit of reciprocity,

If you don't think the so called Robber Barrons increased our standard of living faster than at any other time in human history please say why or admit to having no character whatsoever.

Are you really so stupid as to be fooling yourself that you can change the subject to avoid your abject ignorance and no one will notice?
Do you want to be a liberal all your life. Think about it and the brain washing youj've received.

 

[Koios]

Okay; Liberalism came into being due to the extreme exploits of robber barrons during the Industrial Revolution,

1000% stupid and 5000% illiterate and 10,000 liberal. Do you enjoy being stupid?

Here are the exploits of the so called Robber Barons:

The Robber Barons: Republicans Greatest Shame!

From: The Myth of The Robber Barrons by Forest McDonald


Edward Collins $33,000 per Atlantic crossing (page 7)
Cornelius Vanderbilt (robber barron) $15,000 per Atlantic crossing

Collins $600 NY to California
Vanderbilt (robber barron) 150 NY to California( page 12)


"James J Hill cut freight costs from 90 cents to 44 cents a pound" (page 34) and still made a profit while the heavily subsidized Union Pacific and Central Pacific always lost money

"Coopers charged 2.50 per barrel Rockefeller cut his to $.96" (Page 86)

"From 1865 to 1870, the price of kerosene dropped from 58 to 26 cents per gallon,
Rockefeller made profits during everyone of these years" (page 87)

"Before 1870, only the rich could afford whale oil and candles, The rest had to go to bed to save money. By 1870 with the drop in the price of Kerosene, the middle and working class people all over the nation could afford the one cent an hour that it cost to light their homes at night".( page 87)

"When Andrew Carnegie entered steel production in 1872, England dominated world production and the price of steel production was $56 per ton. By 1900 Carnegie Steel was manufacturing steel for $11.00 per ton and out stripping the entire production of England!" (page 126)

Shit. I was hoping you'd offer up a bit of reciprocity,

If you don't think the so called Robber Barrons increased our standard of living faster than at any other time in human history please say why or admit to having no character whatsoever.

Are you really so stupid as to be fooling yourself that you can change the subject to avoid your abject ignorance and no one will notice?
Do you want to be a liberal all your life. Think about it and the brain washing youj've received.

No; they didn't. But then, I understand market economics; it helped in my 30+ years of being a senior marketing exec (Dir / VP level).

So what your snippets are pointing out, and then making wild and unsustantiated assumptions about, points to something else entirely:

Raising the standard of living, which unions and wage / labor requirement did, arbitrarily by the way. No change in economic benefit / output. Just more pay for doing the exact same work. THAT and not Industrialists, raise the standard of living.

And contrary to retards sucking in the RWM koolaid, the higher wages did not increase the cost of shit we buy. Fuck!! It went down.

Now instead of railroads being the only customer, average Joes are buying cars and shit. Productions and economies of scale go ape shit. More steel makers, including an uncle of mine (Isaacson Steel) enter the market, since it's growing and worth getting after. Prices come down, workers with money are buying a bunch of shit, and Uncle Hank makes a buttload, with a nice house in the Richmond Highlands, sporting two olympic size pools, one indoors. Plus he bred a line of Black Labs, some pups of which I had a child, and that remain among my fondest childhood memories.