Decline ........

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by Trajan, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Trajan
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    Trajan conscientia mille testes

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    Was noodling around my copy of The D&F last week....my take on Gibbons ground work synopsis of a crucial chapter. Yes the comparison between Rome and the US can be strained, but what the hell...its always been my feeling that the decline of Rome began when they created their first province, Sicily, in 241 after they got entangled in the native-Carthaginian struggle there, and pushed Carthage out.

    What came with it, the administration of such, the taste for gross mercantilism and movement of specie to and from, the fabulous wealth that it created surfaced an 'identity' problem (crisis) that began to erode the Republican process that they had ruled themselves there by previously.

    They never worked it out really and the civil wars in the run up to their great civil war that created the Imperial admin. of what Rome had been took time, but 'the die had been cast' 240 years earlier ( pun intended) imho.



    Gibbons synopsis.
    Edward Gibbon - The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire Volume 1



    The Founding Fathers, with a small army of farmers and artisans achieved their freedom, 236 years have elapsed. During the first 200 years, in the laborious school of agrarianism and an awakening of invented Industrial invigoration, cemented by Judeo-Christian tenets, the US practiced on the whole the virtues built of sound legislation of government by the vigorous exertion of those tenets & virtues, there by they had obtaining a preeminent position in the world.

    In the course of the last generation, those founding tenets have been rendered inert via overabundance of apparent prosperity concomitant with an internal decrepitude and decline. The nation of artisans, builders and legislators, who composed the bedrock of the American people have been dissolved into a vulgar society, self confounding itself with the 10’s of millions of servile disinterested citizenry, who have received the name, without adopting the animating spirit, the melting pot has now become a race to balkanization.

    The form is still the same, but the animating health and vigor have fled, discouraged and exhausted by a long series of self serving doles that reach citizens earning almost twice the national average of income, coupled with a chase for immediate gratification.

    Every State or Nation, as like a living thing has an Arc, from the apex, we have clearly over the last generation rode over the summit into the back side slide of ours.
     
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  2. uscitizen
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    uscitizen Senior Member

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    And so many on here have made fun of me for saying we are in and have been in decline for some time...

    We must learn to live with less.
     
  3. boedicca
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    boedicca Uppity Water Nymph Supporting Member

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    And so many have agreed that we are in a decline...we just differ in our understanding as to the reasons why.
     
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  4. JakeStarkey
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    JakeStarkey Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    Add to this: "Of course slavery and factory capitalism brutalized the lower classes . . . [edited]."
     
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  5. Trajan
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    Trajan conscientia mille testes

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    no, that doesn't work- slavery ended in the civil war ( and had been abolished in the north since 1804) and unions, whose power reached a peak ( why has that ebbed is the question you should ponder btw) in the late 70's, certainly have been a doubled edged sword.
     
  6. C_Clayton_Jones
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    C_Clayton_Jones Diamond Member

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    It’s not uncommon for some to confuse ‘decline’ with change, particularly in the reactionary context of an idealized American past. During the last 60 years America has moved closer to the original intent of the Framers, allowing for greater expression of individual liberty as well as greater restriction on government to interfere with that liberty.

    True, where will always be acute examples of discomfort and anxiety during the course of any change, as change is inherently unsettling; but our ancestors 100 years ago were equally vexed with a changing society, which they also perceived as ‘decline.’
     
  7. JakeStarkey
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    JakeStarkey Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    XXXXXXX

    Slavery lasted into the 1820s in NY. Slavery was replaced with class agrarian warfare based on race in the South. The unions were crushed by the 1st Great Depression (1893-1897) and child labor was rampant. It required federal progressivism under TR to end much of the crap.

    edited

     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  8. freedombecki
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    freedombecki Let's go swimmin'! Supporting Member

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    Please tell that to Bam-bam. Spending during decline is bad for you.

    :evil:
     
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  9. Trajan
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    Trajan conscientia mille testes

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    and you classify yourself as such?

    I am quite sure there were instances where in folks attempted to skirt the law of their conscience and keep someone in in some form of slavery, but the way you seem to be arguing this, its as if the emancipation proclamation etc. meant nothing,it appears I am quite sure to you at least, that the 'infinitesimal literal' is your friend, its the only way you have any kind of a point....your issue appears to be argument to be argumentative, pick another nit.

    State Mass. N.H. N.Y. Conn. R.I. Pa. N.J. Vt.
    European settlement 1620 1623 1624 1633 1636 1638 1620 1666
    First record of slavery 1629? 1645 1626 1639 1652 1639 1626? c.1760?
    Official end of slavery 1783 1783 1799 1784 1784 1780 1804 1777
    Actual end of slavery 1783 c.1845? 1827 1848 1842 c.1845? 1865 1777?
    Percent black 1790 1.4% 0.6% 7.6% 2.3% 6.3% 2.4% 7.7% 0.3%
    Percent black 1860 0.78% 0.15% 1.26% 1.87% 2.26% 1.95% 3.76% 0.22%
    Slavery in the North






    [/QUOTE]
     
  10. Trajan
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    Trajan conscientia mille testes

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    I'd say you have burned the forest and have fallen in love with the trees.
     

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