Cultists

[Navy1960]

Teaching someone to love something, worship it, believe in it, etc, etc, is indoctrination.

Your confusing what the word means. Just because something is indoctrinated doesn't mean its bad.

Oh and indoctrination has nothing to do with political views. You can indoctrinate to any number of things. And you say that doing it to a person is indoctrination, but to a country isn't? Do explain why that is.

The act of indoctrinating, or the condition of being indoctrinated; instruction in the rudiments and principles of any science or system of belief

So the pledge is a belief system now is it? here I thought it was an oath to one's country all this time. Let me explain. political systems are principles of beliefs that people hold. Democrat, Republican, Communist, etc., etc, Where one can recite a pledge to a country that holds many beliefs it does not indoctrinate a person in a particular belief especially our pledge. If however a parent lets say loves. Joe Smith and Joe Smith happens to be running for President and is a member of the communist party and I am a parent that believes in him with children and teach my children through songs and books that they are to believe that I do that Joe Smiths views are the right ones and there are no other views accepted except Joe Smiths , then guess what I have done I have indoctrinated my children into the same views I have.

 

[Larkinn]

t-shirts, in UN blue
banners
lyrics
public posting
professional production

You're saying this ISN'T meant to boost Obama?

I'm curious about the professional production actually. That combined with the "at a friends house" seems to be at odds with each other.

But until I get evidence that this was done by the Obama campaign, I see no reason to think that it was.

 

[Larkinn]

The act of indoctrinating, or the condition of being indoctrinated; instruction in the rudiments and principles of any science or system of belief

So the pledge is a belief system now is it? here I thought it was an oath to one's country all this time. Let me explain. political systems are principles of beliefs that people hold. Democrat, Republican, Communist, etc., etc, Where one can recite a pledge to a country that holds many beliefs it does not indoctrinate a person in a particular belief especially our pledge. If however a parent lets say loves. Joe Smith and Joe Smith happens to be running for President and is a member of the communist party and I am a parent that believes in him with children and teach my children through songs and books that they are to believe that I do that Joe Smiths views are the right ones and there are no other views accepted except Joe Smiths , then guess what I have done I have indoctrinated my children into the same views I have.

So the pledge is just neutral about the belief that one should honor America which is, you'll notice, a belief?

 

[Navy1960]

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all." Exactly where in there do you see anything about honoring America?

Main Entry: al·le·giance
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈlē-jən(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English aligeaunce, from Anglo-French allegeance, alteration of ligeance, from lige liege
Date: 14th century
1 a: the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1): the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2): the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
2: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause

You think that by citing the pledge you are being incoctrinated when in fact your swearing an oath. Here is the difference, one is a choice the other is not. You do not indoctrinate someone or yourself by citing the pledge which is an oath to a country that represents many many beliefs and customs. I don't even see an added reference in the pledge to a party. Now I am going to give you an example of indoctrination though..

All [North Korean Communist] party members have to:

1. Dedicate ourselves to struggle to arouse the whole society in pursuing the revolutionary thought of the great Chairman, Comrade Kim Il Sung.

2. To offer our highest loyalty to the great Chairman, Comrade Kim Il Sung.

3. To make absolute the authority of the great Chairman, Comrade Kim Il Sung.

4. To believe in the revolutionary thought of the great Chairman, Comrade Kim Il Sung and to maintain the uniformity of the teachings of the Chairman.

And so forth. Each [North Korean Communist] member must also observe the following principles:

5. A Party member only recognizes the authority of Comrade Kim Il Sung.

6. A Party member accepts unconditionally the teachings of the Chairman and regards them as a yardstick for making all decisions.

7. When making reports, discussing a topic, giving a lecture, or quoting from documents, one has to refer to the Chairman's teachings and never speak or write about something inconsistent with the Chairman's views.

By the way in case you dont know the difference between a pledge and this I will post that here for you too.

A loyalty oath is an oath of loyalty to an organization, institution, or state of which an individual is a member.

In this context, a loyalty oath is not a pledge or oath of allegiance. It is an affirmation by which a person signs a legally binding document or warrant.

Usually, a loyalty oath to an organization or to a nation state is created during a time of social tension when people wish to guard against behavior like advocating fundamental change in the organization, advocating violent overthrow of the nation state, or spreading dissent within the organization

 

[Larkinn]

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all." Exactly where in there do you see anything about honoring America?

Really? So you think the pledge is neutral about honoring America?

You think that by citing the pledge you are being incoctrinated when in fact your swearing an oath. Here is the difference, one is a choice the other is not.

Ah, any particular reason for swearing the oath every day in school for years and years? Oh wait, thats cause its not just an oath, its indoctrination.

 

[Navy1960]

Really? So you think the pledge is neutral about honoring America?



Ah, any particular reason for swearing the oath every day in school for years and years? Oh wait, thats cause its not just an oath, its indoctrination.

It's become very clear that your don't have a real grasp on the concept of the definition of indoctrination. You would rather believe that the choice to cite the pledge is somehow the same as children being led into singing and wearing uniforms to honor a politcal figure. So rather than try to expalin something this simple to you I will give you an even more simple answer. YES

 

[Larkinn]

It's become very clear that your don't have a real grasp on the concept of the definition of indoctrination. You would rather believe that the choice to cite the pledge is somehow the same as children being led into singing and wearing uniforms to honor a politcal figure. So rather than try to expalin something this simple to you I will give you an even more simple answer. YES

You are led to say the pledge, just as those kids were led to sing songs. You somehow don't realize that there isn't a fundamental difference between idolizing a country and idolizing a person.

 

[rayboyusmc]

What a fucking joke.

The RNC pioneered Talking Points to and absolute science.

Are you pissed, the left is using them back on you.

 

[KittenKoder]

They may, but I will just balance this out a little:

[youtube]-i4bDIdEKRw[/youtube]

 

[rayboyusmc]

"Dear Leader" is that in the song, or is that an addition by Rush?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Kitten, please don't confuse them with similar crap from the other side.

 

[KittenKoder]

Kitten, please don't confuse them with similar crap from the other side.

Aaaaaw, but that's the only fun a moderate like me has.

 

[Navy1960]

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

Further on that , the pledge is not just recited by children, it's recited in congress and and other governmental functions as well. It is a CHOICE to recite the pledge, which is an oath and I will not put the definition again for you because you obviously did not read it the frist time. If fail to see the difference between that and a parent that would place a child in a situation where they have no choice but to be a part of the parents belief system then I suggest you read a little bit more about the what the pledge is and what it's origins are before you cite that as a good reason to justify parents using their kids to promote their own politcal beliefs. Let me cite you somthing further, this is no different than a parent who would bring a child to a protest and make them hold a sign that espouses their beliefs. In the state of Fl. you no doubt have heard of the Anthony case? and the number of protestors that ar ein front of the Anthony house? The woman that was bringing her nine year old there each night to protest with her.

DCF Sends Fair Warning To Anthony Protesters

A confrontation Monday caught the eye of viewers and Department of Children and Families officials after a boy got his arm squashed in the door while Cindy Anthony, grandmother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, and a protester screamed at each other.

The incident actually prompted an investigation by DCF and it warned Monday protesters could find themselves under investigation.

DCF said it believes it's a parents' primary responsibility to keep their kids safe and with fistfights and foul language sometimes surfacing here DCF said it's really not a place for children.

There were harsh words between Cindy Anthony and a protester with her 9-year-old son at her side and even the child got in on the shouting match.

However DCF stepped in and made sure that this type of behavior on the part of parents will not be tolerated. As the type of behavior displayed by parents who would indoctrinate their children into a political campaign should not be tolerated.

 

[Navy1960]

What a fucking joke.

The RNC pioneered Talking Points to and absolute science.

Are you pissed, the left is using them back on you.

I know your not addressing me with that remark Colonel but in case you are, the answer is no. In case your bothering to read my posts, I fail to see where I posted an RNC "talking point". As far as the pledge is concerned. If a parent has a political belief system, be it Republican or Democrat, and they take those kids and dress them in tidy little shirts , and create cute little songs for them to sing about how great their candidate is and how good it will be when the dear leader is elected, then thats indoctrination. I'm sorry if that offends your liberal sensibilities but I would say the same thing if the kids were sporting McCain t-shirts who by way I'm NOT voting for.

 

[Larkinn]

Ever been to school? Its a bitch to exercise your "choice" not to say the pledge. I used to sit there and mouth it, cause I'd get yelled at if I didn't. Some choice there.

 

[KittenKoder]

I know your not addressing me with that remark Colonel but in case you are, the answer is no. In case your bothering to read my posts, I fail to see where I posted an RNC "talking point". As far as the pledge is concerned. If a parent has a political belief system, be it Republican or Democrat, and they take those kids and dress them in tidy little shirts , and create cute little songs for them to sing about how great their candidate is and how good it will be when the dear leader is elected, then thats indoctrination. I'm sorry if that offends your liberal sensibilities but I would say the same thing if the kids were sporting McCain t-shirts who by way I'm NOT voting for.

I concur with Navy on this, bringing children into any debate or argument is immoral for anyone to do. Indoctrinating them is the same as brainwashing, making anyone who follows that practice a monster. Children do not make those kind of choices on their own, and they know too little to make them wisely, people who 'teach' them that a certain way is best are doing nothing more than taking their free will and rights away. They should be concerned with simple rules, like not hurting other beings or being safe, then having fun and exploring their own world beyond that so that when they do grow up they can make intelligent and informed choices instead of following one side or the other because they have been told to so many times by their parents they lose the ability to think.

 

[Navy1960]

Ever been to school? Its a bitch to exercise your "choice" not to say the pledge. I used to sit there and mouth it, cause I'd get yelled at if I didn't. Some choice there.

When you mouthed it were you being indoctrinated or were you thinking about " I wonder what they are having for lunch today in the cafeteria?" See what I mean? I know that where my daughter went to school it was optional, if you felt like you didn't want to say the pledge then your not forced to say it. In my day, we sort of got it done with fast because there was that cafeteria thing to think about and the hot girl sitting next to you in class. I'm going to have to disagree with you on the pledge thing Larkinn but agree only in one aspect with you that parents should NOT be doing the kinds of things we saw in the video as part of a school program, but I also think it's not something parents should be doing at all before or after school. I have one question. if this was so innocent, why is it on youtube?

 

[KittenKoder]

When you mouthed it were you being indoctrinated or were you thinking about " I wonder what they are having for lunch today in the cafeteria?" See what I mean? I know that where my daughter went to school it was optional, if you felt like you didn't want to say the pledge then your not forced to say it. In my day, we sort of got it done with fast because there was that cafeteria thing to think about and the hot girl sitting next to you in class. I'm going to have to disagree with you on the pledge thing Larkinn but agree only in one aspect with you that parents should NOT be doing the kinds of things we saw in the video as part of a school program, but I also think it's not something parents should be doing at all before or after school. I have one question. if this was so innocent, why is it on youtube?

When I went to school they MADE us at first, I was one of the first junior high students to say 'fuck it' and sat down, in the middle of it, and began doing school work. After that they tried to force me and the others who followed my lead. Eventually they gave up, and by the time I was in high school they made it optional. Finally they asked why I didn't want to say it anymore, my response was that saying it means nothing, living it means the world.

 

[Larkinn]

When you mouthed it were you being indoctrinated or were you thinking about " I wonder what they are having for lunch today in the cafeteria?"

I was thinking "why the fuck am I forced to say something I don't believe".

See what I mean? I know that where my daughter went to school it was optional, if you felt like you didn't want to say the pledge then your not forced to say it.

Not in my school. And I lived in a pretty liberal area.

In my day, we sort of got it done with fast because there was that cafeteria thing to think about and the hot girl sitting next to you in class. I'm going to have to disagree with you on the pledge thing Larkinn but agree only in one aspect with you that parents should NOT be doing the kinds of things we saw in the video as part of a school program, but I also think it's not something parents should be doing at all before or after school. I have one question. if this was so innocent, why is it on youtube?

I never said it was "so innocent". In fact I said it was weird. And no idea why it is on youtube, nor why it looks professional, and yet tries to portray itself as being non-professional. Seems strange to me.

 

[random3434]

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

Further on that , the pledge is not just recited by children, it's recited in congress and and other governmental functions as well. It is a CHOICE to recite the pledge, which is an oath and I will not put the definition again for you because you obviously did not read it the frist time. If fail to see the difference between that and a parent that would place a child in a situation where they have no choice but to be a part of the parents belief system then I suggest you read a little bit more about the what the pledge is and what it's origins are before you cite that as a good reason to justify parents using their kids to promote their own politcal beliefs. Let me cite you somthing further, this is no different than a parent who would bring a child to a protest and make them hold a sign that espouses their beliefs. In the state of Fl. you no doubt have heard of the Anthony case? and the number of protestors that ar ein front of the Anthony house? The woman that was bringing her nine year old there each night to protest with her.

DCF Sends Fair Warning To Anthony Protesters

A confrontation Monday caught the eye of viewers and Department of Children and Families officials after a boy got his arm squashed in the door while Cindy Anthony, grandmother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, and a protester screamed at each other.

The incident actually prompted an investigation by DCF and it warned Monday protesters could find themselves under investigation.

DCF said it believes it's a parents' primary responsibility to keep their kids safe and with fistfights and foul language sometimes surfacing here DCF said it's really not a place for children.

There were harsh words between Cindy Anthony and a protester with her 9-year-old son at her side and even the child got in on the shouting match.

However DCF stepped in and made sure that this type of behavior on the part of parents will not be tolerated. As the type of behavior displayed by parents who would indoctrinate their children into a political campaign should not be tolerated.

Or those parents who take their kids to abortion clinics to protest with them. Too much!

Kids don't get much of their youth anymore, do they?


I've stated this before, in our school we say the pledge every day. If a child doesn't want to say it for whatever reason, that's fine. NOBODY says anything to the child.

*Also, Navy1960 is one of the most level headed posters on the USMB. We may not always agree politically, but he can see both sides of the coin with open eyes.