Criminalizing unemployed - Sen. Hatch wants unemployed to face mandatory drug tests

[oreo]

Sen. Hatch wants unemployed to face mandatory drug tests - The Hill

Hey Orrin, why not just use ankle monitors?

WHO will pay for this expensive 'program'? Fiscal conservatism is just a code word. It is all about trying to turn democracy into an aristocracy. Hatch's 'program' would help to perpetuate the perception that there's "a two-class system where if you're unemployed, you no longer have the same rights as other people. It kind of criminalizes being jobless, just like over the past 20 years or so we've criminalized being homeless. That seems to be the answer for a lot of Republicans; just go ahead and go to war on the problem instead of dealing with it in a more human way."

See the only reason that someone doesn't have a job in this thriving economy is because they are drug addicts. Hatch is just trying to help.

What with David Walker's wistful call for a return to debtor's prison and this hideous attack on the unemployed it's evident that the fatuous elites in this country are so out of touch that they really have no idea how obscene their aristocratic braying sounds to average Americans. or perhaps they do, and just don't care. If your point is to pretend that 10% official unemployment is simply a reflection of the bad character of the unemployed so you can protect the wealth of the ruling class, then turning every unemployed person into a suspected criminal and potential drug user makes sense.

RefRef

HERE IS THE ARTICLE AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS:

Welfare and unemployment beneficiaries would have to pass a drug test to qualify for programs under an amendment offered Tuesday by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah).

Hatch introduced an amendment to the tax extenders bill that would require those who are applying for some of the benefits in that bill, including unemployment and welfare benefits, to pass a drug test in exchange for the benefits.

Now I ask you: If you are required to pass a drug test to GET a JOB--why shouldn't the same test be mandatory for people who are applying for a tax payer handout?--

 

[ConHog]

You know Big Fitz, You folks on the right really, really anger me. But I will ignore your bullshit accusations about me. The only drug I use is caffeine. I don't even drink alcohol anymore, but when I did, I was a few beers guy. I am going to try restraining my anger and appeal to your human side. I really hope you have one.

This is not an aberration or a bullshit chart. America incarcerates more human beings per 100,000 citizens than ANY nation on the planet...more that Russia or China. THINK about that. This is the United States of America. We pride ourselves on freedom, liberty, the God given right to the pursuit of happiness. Those aren't numbers on a chart, they are human beings, fellow Americans, people from 'We, the People'

Yes..the war on drugs must end. We agree on something. It has become a war on freedom. Too many human lives are being destroyed and sacrificed not because of any harm they did to someone else, but because of harm they did to themselves. NO ONE that uses drugs should be punished for it. They are causing their own self punishment. They need help; counseling and medical.

But drug arrests are not the only problem. We have created too many laws and attached way too stiff penalties to them and instituted policies that turn our criminal justice system into a Chinese finger. We ALL can agree there are people that must be kept locked up and away from society. But it should be for violent crimes and adults that violate children.

This is OUR country. We, the People are the government. We can only change it, and correct things that are wrong if we are willing and able to see it. IMO, too many people on the right are unwilling to question government when it get too punitive. They just brush it off as 'they MUST be guilty', without considering if the laws are guilty of being too punitive. And they never consider that human foibles occur on the law enforcement side as well as the judicial side. But the right always finds excuses for a bad cop or a corrupt judge. Is there anything short of a personal tragic event that will moderate the right's view, make them stop and think? Will personal epiphany only come at the end of a nightstick or a bogus arrest? If THAT is the case, then we will continue down this horrible path of unjustly destroying the lives of fellow Americans.


Overpopulation
Currently the U.S. prison population is over 2.1 million, which is 5-8 times as much as the prison population of any other country in the world. This number has increased six-fold in the past 20-30 years, and will continue to rise unless new laws are passed to better deal with this prisoner population influx and the overcrowding that has resulted.

The prisoner population has increased for a number of reasons, none relating to an increase in crime. In the late 1980s and 1990s a series of laws were passed that became known as the “get tough” movement in the U.S. criminal justice system. Laws pertaining to truth-in-sentencing, longer mandatory minimum sentences, harsher drug crime sentences, three-strikes-your-out policy, restrictions on parole, and an increase of juveniles waived to criminal courts have all contributed to the phenomenon known as ‘mass incarceration.’ According to Marlene Martin, a sociologist, our country makes up 5 percent of the world’s population, but accounts for 25 percent of the world’s prisoners, and more than 40 percent of these prisoners are serving life sentences for a crime other than murder. Our extreme policies are causing problems that states are ill-equipped to solve, and which citizens are unwilling to spend their tax dollars on.
Overpopulation Stateville Speaks: Loyola University Chicago Edition

puppycock... Drugs need to remain illegal.

You are nothing but mindless a right wing scum bag. Hey asshole, do you know there is only ONE drug where a human being can DIE just from withdrawal? Look it up! It's the same one that kills more Americans that any other. Look it up!

Actually , there are THREE groups of drugs (if you count alcohol as a drug) from which you can die from withdrawal.

Alcohol
Benzos
Opiates

Proving once again that MY knowledge on ANY subject > your combined knowledge on ALL subjects

Alcohol, benzos, and opiates - Withdrawal that might kill you! | Psychology Today

 

[Bfgrn]

puppycock... Drugs need to remain illegal.

You are nothing but mindless a right wing scum bag. Hey asshole, do you know there is only ONE drug where a human being can DIE just from withdrawal? Look it up! It's the same one that kills more Americans that any other. Look it up!

actually, there are two.

Then you know the one I am talking about. If laws could be reversed, there would be no such thing as MA(H)D

 

[ConHog]

You are nothing but mindless a right wing scum bag. Hey asshole, do you know there is only ONE drug where a human being can DIE just from withdrawal? Look it up! It's the same one that kills more Americans that any other. Look it up!

actually, there are two.

Then you know the one I am talking about. If laws could be reversed, there would be no such thing as MA(H)D

So your theory is that if drugs were legal no one would ever decide to quit using them once they started using them so no one would risk death by withdrawal?

So you admit that drugs are so addictive that no one will want to quit them?

 

[del]

actually, there are two.

Then you know the one I am talking about. If laws could be reversed, there would be no such thing as MA(H)D

So your theory is that if drugs were legal no one would ever decide to quit using them once they started using them so no one would risk death by withdrawal?

So you admit that drugs are so addictive that no one will want to quit them?

if alcohol is legal, they should all be legal.

 

[ConHog]

Then you know the one I am talking about. If laws could be reversed, there would be no such thing as MA(H)D

So your theory is that if drugs were legal no one would ever decide to quit using them once they started using them so no one would risk death by withdrawal?

So you admit that drugs are so addictive that no one will want to quit them?

if alcohol is legal, they should all be legal.

So just ignore that I proved both of you wrong about death by withdrawal?

Marijuana legalization should be a state decision, other drugs, not so much.

 

[del]

So your theory is that if drugs were legal no one would ever decide to quit using them once they started using them so no one would risk death by withdrawal?

So you admit that drugs are so addictive that no one will want to quit them?

if alcohol is legal, they should all be legal.

So just ignore that I proved both of you wrong about death by withdrawal?

Marijuana legalization should be a state decision, other drugs, not so much.

i'll concede that you can google with the best of them.

if you want to try to tell me that the use of alcohol hasn't caused more misery, needless deaths and destruction than the use of any other drug, then i'll tell you right now that you're full of shit.

 

[Big Fitz]

All right Bfgrn, in the spirit of being civil I apologize for the personal shot towards you regarding drugs. I re read it, and it was a bit more mean spirited than maybe I should have said.

That BEING said however, I maintain that 99.994% of all advocates for drug legalization are doing so because they are desiring to prevent their own incarceration first and foremost. You would be only one of 3 people I know that I can say that about and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because the other two I have met.

This is not an aberration or a bullshit chart

Your chart came from an anti-imprisonment advocacy group. I've seen it before and it is deliberately designed to make it look like there is a crisis, when none exists.

This is the United States of America. We pride ourselves on freedom, liberty, the God given right to the pursuit of happiness. Those aren't numbers on a chart, they are human beings, fellow Americans, people from 'We, the People'

We also pride ourselves being a nation of laws. Laws that protect people from those who would take from them their life, liberty and property. The people in prison are there because they broke those laws, not because of some arbitrary political disagreement like is often the case in China currently and probably Russia if what's going on there is to be believed. Secondly, I don't know if the numbers from china or russia are to be trusted. How many prisoners are not reported? I suspect that is more the case their populations are massively under reported. No proof on that right now, but just a suspicion based on past behavior on reporting to other statistical entities. The application of the law is what matters more than the number of prisoners.

Too many human lives are being destroyed and sacrificed not because of any harm they did to someone else, but because of harm they did to themselves.

I don't think I believe in the theory of a victimless crime anymore. Those human lives are often being destroyed by their own bad choices. On the other hand, I do agree we have far too many laws and we do need to pare back much of what is out there and get back to a style of governance not seen for over a century where the people took care of themselves as much as possible and the police got involved when other solutions could not be found.

Yes..the war on drugs must end. We agree on something.

The NATIONAL war on drugs must end. Yes. I highly encourage every state to keep drugs illegal or give me provisions to make drug users second class citizens.

We have created too many laws and attached way too stiff penalties to them and instituted policies that turn our criminal justice system into a Chinese finger. We ALL can agree there are people that must be kept locked up and away from society. But it should be for violent crimes and adults that violate children.

We need to simplify the criminal code, yes. It should be written so a 6th grader can understand it and be able to be learned in a relatively short period of time and understood in plain english, not legalese.

But, I do not agree about softening the penalties. Fewer laws, harsher penalties. I don't agree in "Life without Parole". No, commute it to death and be done with it. Safer, cheaper done. Err on the side of society. Yes some innocents will fall victim, but we are talking a fraction of a percentage at most.

I also want to see white collar crime and political corruption type crimes be treated far far more harshly. Much more use of the death penalty for bribery and corruption and penalties based on monetary values of the crime so CEO's and corporations just line item the potential penalties.

You have more freedom, but those things that are crimes are taken damn seriously.

But the right always finds excuses for a bad cop or a corrupt judge.

If you can prove they are bad or corrupt, then you must prosecute them and have stiff penalties. Stiffer than most for they were put in a position of trust by the public and need to suffer more for violating that trust. But because they ARE put in a position of public trust, I will trust them first, not the criminals. Err on the side of safety to the general citizenry, not the criminal. You do not have cruel treatment for prisoners... you've no need. They will do horrible things to themselves anyway. You just need to be just in all things to them and equal in it's dispensation.

Is there anything short of a personal tragic event that will moderate the right's view, make them stop and think?

It's the old joke. A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet. Not enough liberals have come face to face with the repercussions of over-lenient corrections policy.

Will personal epiphany only come at the end of a nightstick or a bogus arrest? If THAT is the case, then we will continue down this horrible path of unjustly destroying the lives of fellow Americans.

This rhetoric is part of the problem. It goes on the assumption all police are suspect and all criminals shouldn't be. It flips on it's head the whole concept of the justice system and puts the police on trial instead of the criminal. That is what is destroying lives of Americans. A justice system that does not punish enough... or bring even justice to the victims of a crime. That is who is supposed to be protected and in essence, avenged: the victims. This is often forgotten in the whole debate. what about those who's lives have been shattered by the criminal act?

The number of prisoners is irrelevant when you consider the victims. I do not believe in the victimless crime and deny it's validity as an argument. Why? Because the application of the law in this nation by far exceeds the equality of how it is applied in most other nations world wide, if not all of them. We don't lock up political prisoners (Don't even say gitmo, they are not the same) like they do in other nations. We have prisoner's rights as well as victim's rights and generally speaking, our judges and police are good people generally free of corruption.. generally.

Your chart is still a massive exaggeration of a non-issue to society though.

 

[Big Fitz]

All right Bfgrn, in the spirit of being civil I apologize for the personal shot towards you regarding drugs. I re read it, and it was a bit more mean spirited than maybe I should have said.

That BEING said however, I maintain that 99.994% of all advocates for drug legalization are doing so because they are desiring to prevent their own incarceration first and foremost. You would be only one of 3 people I know that I can say that about and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because the other two I have met.

This is not an aberration or a bullshit chart

Your chart came from an anti-imprisonment advocacy group. I've seen it before and it is deliberately designed to make it look like there is a crisis, when none exists.

This is the United States of America. We pride ourselves on freedom, liberty, the God given right to the pursuit of happiness. Those aren't numbers on a chart, they are human beings, fellow Americans, people from 'We, the People'

We also pride ourselves being a nation of laws. Laws that protect people from those who would take from them their life, liberty and property. The people in prison are there because they broke those laws, not because of some arbitrary political disagreement like is often the case in China currently and probably Russia if what's going on there is to be believed. Secondly, I don't know if the numbers from china or russia are to be trusted. How many prisoners are not reported? I suspect that is more the case their populations are massively under reported. No proof on that right now, but just a suspicion based on past behavior on reporting to other statistical entities. The application of the law is what matters more than the number of prisoners.

Too many human lives are being destroyed and sacrificed not because of any harm they did to someone else, but because of harm they did to themselves.

I don't think I believe in the theory of a victimless crime anymore. Those human lives are often being destroyed by their own bad choices. On the other hand, I do agree we have far too many laws and we do need to pare back much of what is out there and get back to a style of governance not seen for over a century where the people took care of themselves as much as possible and the police got involved when other solutions could not be found.

Yes..the war on drugs must end. We agree on something.

The NATIONAL war on drugs must end. Yes. I highly encourage every state to keep drugs illegal or give me provisions to make drug users second class citizens.

We have created too many laws and attached way too stiff penalties to them and instituted policies that turn our criminal justice system into a Chinese finger. We ALL can agree there are people that must be kept locked up and away from society. But it should be for violent crimes and adults that violate children.

We need to simplify the criminal code, yes. It should be written so a 6th grader can understand it and be able to be learned in a relatively short period of time and understood in plain english, not legalese.

But, I do not agree about softening the penalties. Fewer laws, harsher penalties. I don't agree in "Life without Parole". No, commute it to death and be done with it. Safer, cheaper done. Err on the side of society. Yes some innocents will fall victim, but we are talking a fraction of a percentage at most.

I also want to see white collar crime and political corruption type crimes be treated far far more harshly. Much more use of the death penalty for bribery and corruption and penalties based on monetary values of the crime so CEO's and corporations just line item the potential penalties.

You have more freedom, but those things that are crimes are taken damn seriously.

But the right always finds excuses for a bad cop or a corrupt judge.

If you can prove they are bad or corrupt, then you must prosecute them and have stiff penalties. Stiffer than most for they were put in a position of trust by the public and need to suffer more for violating that trust. But because they ARE put in a position of public trust, I will trust them first, not the criminals. Err on the side of safety to the general citizenry, not the criminal. You do not have cruel treatment for prisoners... you've no need. They will do horrible things to themselves anyway. You just need to be just in all things to them and equal in it's dispensation.

Is there anything short of a personal tragic event that will moderate the right's view, make them stop and think?

It's the old joke. A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet. Not enough liberals have come face to face with the repercussions of over-lenient corrections policy.

Will personal epiphany only come at the end of a nightstick or a bogus arrest? If THAT is the case, then we will continue down this horrible path of unjustly destroying the lives of fellow Americans.

This rhetoric is part of the problem. It goes on the assumption all police are suspect and all criminals shouldn't be. It flips on it's head the whole concept of the justice system and puts the police on trial instead of the criminal. That is what is destroying lives of Americans. A justice system that does not punish enough... or bring even justice to the victims of a crime. That is who is supposed to be protected and in essence, avenged: the victims. This is often forgotten in the whole debate. what about those who's lives have been shattered by the criminal act?

The number of prisoners is irrelevant when you consider the victims. I do not believe in the victimless crime and deny it's validity as an argument. Why? Because the application of the law in this nation by far exceeds the equality of how it is applied in most other nations world wide, if not all of them. We don't lock up political prisoners (Don't even say gitmo, they are not the same) like they do in other nations. We have prisoner's rights as well as victim's rights and generally speaking, our judges and police are good people generally free of corruption.. generally.

Your chart is still a massive exaggeration of a non-issue to society though.

 

[ConHog]

if alcohol is legal, they should all be legal.

So just ignore that I proved both of you wrong about death by withdrawal?

Marijuana legalization should be a state decision, other drugs, not so much.

i'll concede that you can google with the best of them.

if you want to try to tell me that the use of alcohol hasn't caused more misery, needless deaths and destruction than the use of any other drug, then i'll tell you right now that you're full of shit.

Del, I have for the last several years worked on a drug task force. I can tell you without doubt that meth is nastier than alcohol, and I by no means defend alcohol. It has caused misery it has caused pain, it has broken up families, but worse than another drug? I would say maybe ONLY because alcohol has been around longer than the others.

Oh, and I didn't have to Google that to know it.

I can see the argument for alcohol, it's basically fermented fruit and or vegetables. I can see the argument for pot, it's basically a plant. Meth is basically well poison. I've seen lots of fucked up things, and lots of neglect and lots of abuse, but NOTHING even comes close to the damage done by a meth addiction. I've never dealt with it myself, but I hear crack is no better.

I'm sorry but you speak from ignorance if you claim that alcohol is as dangerous as hard drugs. it is not. No matter how you want to try to justify it.

 

[Bfgrn]

Delirium Tremens

Author: Anne Yim, MD, Resident Physician, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital and State University of New York Downstate Medical Center
Coauthor(s): Sage W Wiener, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, State University of New York Downstate, Director of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital Center


Delirium tremens (DT) is the most severe form of ethanol withdrawal manifested by altered mental status and sympathetic overdrive, which can progress to cardiovascular collapse. The syndrome was first described by Thomas Sutton in 1813, but the link to alcohol abstinence was not made until the 1950s with the work of Victor and Adams. Delirium tremens is a medical emergency with a high mortality rate, making early recognition and treatment essential.
Delirium Tremens: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?

# 5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
# 40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
# 45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
# 60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report,

100,000 deaths. That's more than a statistic. That is 100,000 individuals with faces. 100,000 individuals with lives not fully lived. 100,000 individuals grieved by mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and children. Every year.
Death by Alcohol

 

[ConHog]

Delirium Tremens

Author: Anne Yim, MD, Resident Physician, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital and State University of New York Downstate Medical Center
Coauthor(s): Sage W Wiener, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, State University of New York Downstate, Director of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital Center


Delirium tremens (DT) is the most severe form of ethanol withdrawal manifested by altered mental status and sympathetic overdrive, which can progress to cardiovascular collapse. The syndrome was first described by Thomas Sutton in 1813, but the link to alcohol abstinence was not made until the 1950s with the work of Victor and Adams. Delirium tremens is a medical emergency with a high mortality rate, making early recognition and treatment essential.
Delirium Tremens: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?

# 5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
# 40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
# 45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
# 60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report,

100,000 deaths. That's more than a statistic. That is 100,000 individuals with faces. 100,000 individuals with lives not fully lived. 100,000 individuals grieved by mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and children. Every year.
Death by Alcohol

Seems like you're making a pretty good argument to make booze illegal, not to legalize more poison.

 

[ConHog]

Delirium Tremens

Author: Anne Yim, MD, Resident Physician, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital and State University of New York Downstate Medical Center
Coauthor(s): Sage W Wiener, MD, Assistant Professor, Department of Emergency Medicine, State University of New York Downstate, Director of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, Kings County Hospital Center


Delirium tremens (DT) is the most severe form of ethanol withdrawal manifested by altered mental status and sympathetic overdrive, which can progress to cardiovascular collapse. The syndrome was first described by Thomas Sutton in 1813, but the link to alcohol abstinence was not made until the 1950s with the work of Victor and Adams. Delirium tremens is a medical emergency with a high mortality rate, making early recognition and treatment essential.
Delirium Tremens: eMedicine Emergency Medicine



How can alcohol be blamed for 100,000 deaths each year?

# 5% of all deaths from diseases of the circulatory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 15% of all deaths from diseases of the respiratory system are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all deaths from accidents caused by fire and flames are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all accidental drownings are attributed to alcohol.
# 30% of all suicides are attributed to alcohol.
# 40% of all deaths due to accidental falls are attributed to alcohol.
# 45% of all deaths in automobile accidents are attributed to alcohol.
# 60% of all homicides are attributed to alcohol.

(Sources: NIDA Report, the Scientific American and Addiction Research Foundation of Ontario.) Also see Alcohol Consumption and Mortality, Alcohol poisoning deaths, CDC report,

100,000 deaths. That's more than a statistic. That is 100,000 individuals with faces. 100,000 individuals with lives not fully lived. 100,000 individuals grieved by mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and children. Every year.
Death by Alcohol

A high mortality rate? It CAN be 35% but is less that 5% with treatment by your own link

 

[del]

So just ignore that I proved both of you wrong about death by withdrawal?

Marijuana legalization should be a state decision, other drugs, not so much.

i'll concede that you can google with the best of them.

if you want to try to tell me that the use of alcohol hasn't caused more misery, needless deaths and destruction than the use of any other drug, then i'll tell you right now that you're full of shit.

Del, I have for the last several years worked on a drug task force. I can tell you without doubt that meth is nastier than alcohol, and I by no means defend alcohol. It has caused misery it has caused pain, it has broken up families, but worse than another drug? I would say maybe ONLY because alcohol has been around longer than the others.

Oh, and I didn't have to Google that to know it.

I can see the argument for alcohol, it's basically fermented fruit and or vegetables. I can see the argument for pot, it's basically a plant. Meth is basically well poison. I've seen lots of fucked up things, and lots of neglect and lots of abuse, but NOTHING even comes close to the damage done by a meth addiction. I've never dealt with it myself, but I hear crack is no better.

I'm sorry but you speak from ignorance if you claim that alcohol is as dangerous as hard drugs. it is not. No matter how you want to try to justify it.

tell that to the CDC, they say that excessive consumption of alcohol is the third leading preventable cause of death in this country. 75,000 ppl died as a result of the use, misuse and abuse of alcohol in 2001. under 20,000 people died from the use of all other drugs for the same year.

you speak from ignorance if you think *hard* drugs are any different than alcohol. the only difference is that hard drugs are illegal.

 

[Bfgrn]

All right Bfgrn, in the spirit of being civil I apologize for the personal shot towards you regarding drugs. I re read it, and it was a bit more mean spirited than maybe I should have said.

That BEING said however, I maintain that 99.994% of all advocates for drug legalization are doing so because they are desiring to prevent their own incarceration first and foremost. You would be only one of 3 people I know that I can say that about and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because the other two I have met.

This is not an aberration or a bullshit chart

Your chart came from an anti-imprisonment advocacy group. I've seen it before and it is deliberately designed to make it look like there is a crisis, when none exists.

This is the United States of America. We pride ourselves on freedom, liberty, the God given right to the pursuit of happiness. Those aren't numbers on a chart, they are human beings, fellow Americans, people from 'We, the People'

We also pride ourselves being a nation of laws. Laws that protect people from those who would take from them their life, liberty and property. The people in prison are there because they broke those laws, not because of some arbitrary political disagreement like is often the case in China currently and probably Russia if what's going on there is to be believed. Secondly, I don't know if the numbers from china or russia are to be trusted. How many prisoners are not reported? I suspect that is more the case their populations are massively under reported. No proof on that right now, but just a suspicion based on past behavior on reporting to other statistical entities. The application of the law is what matters more than the number of prisoners.



I don't think I believe in the theory of a victimless crime anymore. Those human lives are often being destroyed by their own bad choices. On the other hand, I do agree we have far too many laws and we do need to pare back much of what is out there and get back to a style of governance not seen for over a century where the people took care of themselves as much as possible and the police got involved when other solutions could not be found.



The NATIONAL war on drugs must end. Yes. I highly encourage every state to keep drugs illegal or give me provisions to make drug users second class citizens.



We need to simplify the criminal code, yes. It should be written so a 6th grader can understand it and be able to be learned in a relatively short period of time and understood in plain english, not legalese.

But, I do not agree about softening the penalties. Fewer laws, harsher penalties. I don't agree in "Life without Parole". No, commute it to death and be done with it. Safer, cheaper done. Err on the side of society. Yes some innocents will fall victim, but we are talking a fraction of a percentage at most.

I also want to see white collar crime and political corruption type crimes be treated far far more harshly. Much more use of the death penalty for bribery and corruption and penalties based on monetary values of the crime so CEO's and corporations just line item the potential penalties.

You have more freedom, but those things that are crimes are taken damn seriously.



If you can prove they are bad or corrupt, then you must prosecute them and have stiff penalties. Stiffer than most for they were put in a position of trust by the public and need to suffer more for violating that trust. But because they ARE put in a position of public trust, I will trust them first, not the criminals. Err on the side of safety to the general citizenry, not the criminal. You do not have cruel treatment for prisoners... you've no need. They will do horrible things to themselves anyway. You just need to be just in all things to them and equal in it's dispensation.

Is there anything short of a personal tragic event that will moderate the right's view, make them stop and think?

It's the old joke. A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet. Not enough liberals have come face to face with the repercussions of over-lenient corrections policy.

Will personal epiphany only come at the end of a nightstick or a bogus arrest? If THAT is the case, then we will continue down this horrible path of unjustly destroying the lives of fellow Americans.

This rhetoric is part of the problem. It goes on the assumption all police are suspect and all criminals shouldn't be. It flips on it's head the whole concept of the justice system and puts the police on trial instead of the criminal. That is what is destroying lives of Americans. A justice system that does not punish enough... or bring even justice to the victims of a crime. That is who is supposed to be protected and in essence, avenged: the victims. This is often forgotten in the whole debate. what about those who's lives have been shattered by the criminal act?

The number of prisoners is irrelevant when you consider the victims. I do not believe in the victimless crime and deny it's validity as an argument. Why? Because the application of the law in this nation by far exceeds the equality of how it is applied in most other nations world wide, if not all of them. We don't lock up political prisoners (Don't even say gitmo, they are not the same) like they do in other nations. We have prisoner's rights as well as victim's rights and generally speaking, our judges and police are good people generally free of corruption.. generally.

Your chart is still a massive exaggeration of a non-issue to society though.

Big Fitz, all I can say is you literally turn my stomach. You represent the most dangerous kind of citizen to a free and open society. You are cut from that same cloth as every citizen that supported totalitarian regimes like Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia. The FIRST requirement is to devalue the life of others and the dehumanize them. The second is to never question the state.

How do those type of dangerous people talk and think? Just like THIS:
Fewer laws, harsher penalties. I don't agree in "Life without Parole". No, commute it to death and be done with it. Safer, cheaper done. Err on the side of society. Yes some innocents will fall victim, but we are talking a fraction of a percentage at most.

When confronted on the issue of the Death penalty by someone on the right, I usually provide overwhelming evidence that capital punishment is not cheaper. It costs around 8 times more than life without parole. But your fascist statement: Yes some innocents will fall victim, but we are talking a fraction of a percentage at most. has left me almost speechless. You have just reduced a human life to a percentage, a meaningless statistic.

Would YOU swap places with that innocent person put to death for the good of society Fitz? If you think your solution is just and fair, the you should be willing.

You say that our judges and police are good people generally free of corruption. Even if that were true, they are not all competent and immune from making errors or having bias. Since 1973 over 130 people have been released from death row because of evidence of their innocence.

You are a very sick and totally ignorant human being. I truly pity you.

 

[fyrenza]

Haven't read shit

don't exactly care

BUT

if it's MY MONEY?

You BETTER not be spending it on drugz.

And ^that's^ coming from an herbalist.

DO NOT Fuck with MY money.

And i'll give YOU the same, in return.

No. i won't be back to this thread. Do not bother "doing" me...

 

[Father Time]

Haven't read shit

don't exactly care

BUT

if it's MY MONEY?

Technically the minute they receive the welfare payment it becomes their money.

 

[chanel]

Drug tests are pretty cheap. Catching only a few would be cost efficient in the real world. But with government math - it would probably cost 10 times the private business. So in practical terms, I'd say that it would probably wouldn't be worth it.

However, as I've explained here before, in our seasonal economy unemployment fraud is rampant as well as substance abuse. It certainly would help clean house a bit.

I definitely like the welfare idea. For the druggies I know, most would rather get a job than give up their habits. And the others would quit. Win/win.

 

[editec]

I continue to find it somewhat amusing that usually the very same people complaining about the NANNY GOVERNMENT state demand that the government involve themselves in personal choices like drug and alcohol use.

These people sound more like fascists than lovers of freedom.

Of course, Orin Hatch is obviously a crypto-fascist.

 

[topspin]

Most of the righties are fascist, they are the fustrated poor white working class pissed at minorities for their failures. Beer is much much more harmful than pot, it's not even debatable.
But go on bashing the single mom on welfare, none of your moms were ever single. LOFL