Conservatives Start Speaking Out Against Torture

[Old Rocks]

I didn't see any torture mentioned. What are they bitching about? Water Boarding? That's not torture. It doesn't cause pain and no one has ever died from it.

Next?

Crap. Yes, people have died from it, and we hung some Japanese for doing it to our soldiers. Your morality is on show here. You are no better than the Terrorists that we are fighting.

 

[catzmeow]

LOL... Rust Picker... the one immutable truth about torture is that it works... One can 'resist' only to the extent of one's means... and where one is a prisoner, there is ample time to stress beyond the means of anyone to resist.

Let's define "works," shall we? It works in that, under extreme physical pain, emotional duress, and activities that wear down an individual's mental capacity, PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW.

However, it DOES NOT WORK insofar as that information that you've received being more accurate than information gained through other, less un-American, means of interview and interrogation. In fact, there are serious concerns that information gained under physical duress is in fact SUBSTANTIALLY LESS ACCURATE.

Thus, as far as I'm concerned, it DOES NOT WORK.

 

[catzmeow]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi
Can you tell a mass murderer or terrorist by just looking at them?



Quote: Originally Posted by PubliusInfinitum You bet...

Publius isn't on a first name basis with the truth.

 

[007]

I didn't see any torture mentioned. What are they bitching about? Water Boarding? That's not torture. It doesn't cause pain and no one has ever died from it.

Next?

Crap. Yes, people have died from it, and we hung some Japanese for doing it to our soldiers. Your morality is on show here. You are no better than the Terrorists that we are fighting.

Cram your sensationalist bull crap and show me where someone that was water boarded by American intelligence died.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

this argument is such a logical fallacy....

do you advocate sending convicts to prison?

Absolutely. Do you understand the difference between a convicted felon and the people that we've tortured in our secret prisons?

The convicted felon is not only SUSPECTED of a crime (thus, Publius Infinitum's "reasonable suspicion" comment), but has been prosecuted for that crime. ...

Again what we aare looking at here is the misnomer that we are prosecuting these people for violations of the criminal code. When in FACT, we are prosecuting a WAR against people WHO ATTACKED US... whose SOLE TACTIC IS MASS MURDER... Unanounced, sneak attacks desgined to kill and maim as many inncoent people as is within their substantial means...

Two entirely distinct threshholds... two entirely necessary distinctions... What this member is attempting to do is to provide the threshold of evidence required in a CRIMINAL INVESTIAGTION OF A PRESUMED INNOCENT, upon an ILLEGAL COMBATANTS WHICH ARE PRESUMED GUILTY... thus is the nature of war....

Here's the clue Catz... Don't want to be presumed guilty for acts which would otherwise be a violation of a criminal statute? DO NOT DECLARE WAR!

Now the principles you reference are valid... they're simply out of context. No one is advocating that the presumption of innocence is to be set aside where individuals are being prosecuted by the state for suspected violations of criminal code. PERIOD.

We simply need you to understand that the interrogations are not being used to prepare the prosecution for a quick and tidy trial... These men declared war on the US, attacked innocent people and destroyed or inalterably effected HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS OF LIVES... usurping the rights of EACH ONE to pursue the fulfillment of those lives... and they are presumed guilty...

 

[KittenKoder]

Sleep dep can kill you, your body does most of it's healing while you sleep as well as fight off diseases and clean toxins. So sleep deprivation IS torture, as any insomniac.

Skin that is in running water for too long wears down faster and becomes prone to wounds.

Of course there is also the mental damage done, but then people still seem to think that mental damage is impossible ... yeah ... right.

As I said, the extremists on both sides always seem to get it wrong.

 

[DiamondDave]

Many conservatives and REPs have continually spoke out against torture.... it is just that most everything the peacenicks or far lefties consider torture is not really torture

Dave, you are damnable liar.

Try understanding what is really defined as torture.. then try and understand what is covered and who is covered under the Geneva convention rules...

Most of the things you and your ilk deem as torture within your partisan rants, I went thru worse just in training...

Oooooooooo.. sleep deprivation.... OOOooooooooo, being exposed to bugs...... Oooooooooooo, a little 'wall to wall counseling'....

Give me a break

 

[catzmeow]

You will find all too many on this board that will condemn you as anti-American for even thinking that Bush and company did anything wrong on the torture issue. As McCain stated, the torture issue isn't just about what we are doing to other people when we engage in this kind of horror, but what we are doing to ourselves.

Indeed. See the post directly below yours.

Because, God knows, I'm just a commie, pinko, America-hating leftist.

It couldn't possibly be that I'm outraged because this is such a violation of conservative American values, could it?

 

[Zoom-boing]

LOL... Rust Picker... the one immutable truth about torture is that it works... One can 'resist' only to the extent of one's means... and where one is a prisoner, there is ample time to stress beyond the means of anyone to resist.

Let's define "works," shall we? It works in that, under extreme physical pain, emotional duress, and activities that wear down an individual's mental capacity, PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW.

However, it DOES NOT WORK insofar as that information that you've received being more accurate than information gained through other, less un-American, means of interview and interrogation. In fact, there are serious concerns that information gained under physical duress is in fact SUBSTANTIALLY LESS ACCURATE.

Thus, as far as I'm concerned, it DOES NOT WORK.

I was always under the impression that the least harsh methods of interrogation were used to gain intel and then if they didn't work, harsher methods were used. I was also under the impression that those who were exposed to harsh interrogation methods were known (or very reasonably known) to have intel that would impact the safety of Americans because that's what the CIA's job entails. Is that not right?

 

[catzmeow]

Dave, you are damnable liar.

Actually, he's correct. I know this because I'm one of them.

I also consider Andrew Sullivan a conservative, and he's been a consistent voice of impassioned conservative reasoning on this subject. My boyfriend is as conservative as they come, and a Naval officer. He's horrified that we engaged in this behavior, as a nation. Ditto my brother, who served 10 years in the Navy as a nuke.

We're all just America-hating leftist swine.

I'm pretty sure that, on this board, the following would be counted amongst the conservatives:

Article 15
Crimson White
Del

All against torture, for the record.

 

[DiamondDave]

Dave, you are damnable liar.

Actually, he's correct. I know this because I'm one of them.

I also consider Andrew Sullivan a conservative, and he's been a consistent voice of impassioned conservative reasoning on this subject. My boyfriend is as conservative as they come, and a Naval officer. He's horrified that we engaged in this behavior, as a nation. Ditto my brother, who served 10 years in the Navy as a nuke.

We're all just America-hating leftist swine.

I'm pretty sure that, on this board, the following would be counted amongst the conservatives:

Article 15
Crimson White
Del

All against torture, for the record.

And I know many fellow conservatives that don't agree with the use of waterboarding... but know the difference between being against it and deeming it torture...

I can easily accept someone being against it... but trying to use it as a political jab or yet another excuse to try and chant the "Bush is a war criminal" bullshit is just absurd

 

[tigerbob]

I didn't see any torture mentioned. What are they bitching about? Water Boarding? That's not torture. It doesn't cause pain, there are no lingering effects and no one has ever died from it.

Next?

Why not focus all this energy on the people who actually DO torture people, like terrorists? Ooooooohhh that's right.... YOU'RE TOO BUSY HATING AMERICA!

That's a non argument. If democratically elected governments don't hold themselves to higher standards than terrorists where does that leave the world?

 

[tigerbob]

I didn't see any torture mentioned. What are they bitching about? Water Boarding? That's not torture. It doesn't cause pain and no one has ever died from it.

Next?

Crap. Yes, people have died from it, and we hung some Japanese for doing it to our soldiers. Your morality is on show here. You are no better than the Terrorists that we are fighting.

Cram your sensationalist bull crap and show me where someone that was water boarded by American intelligence died.

You tend not to die from having your fingernails pulled out as well.

 

[catzmeow]

And I know many fellow conservatives that don't agree with the use of waterboarding... but know the difference between being against it and deeming it torture...

I can easily accept someone being against it... but trying to use it as a political jab or yet another excuse to try and chant the "Bush is a war criminal" bullshit is just absurd

I do consider waterboarding, as well as some of the other "enhanced interrogation techniques," to be torture. And, i'd love to see those who don't explaining to our founding fathers why we "needed" to engage in those kinds of acts.

I think that they could put into perspective what it means to sacrifice to be the land of the free, and the home of the brave. And, torturing suspects under duress isn't it.

 

[catzmeow]

You tend not to die from having your fingernails pulled out as well.

Must not be torture, then. I understand that being repeatedly electrocuted is rarely fatal, either.

 

[DiamondDave]

And I know many fellow conservatives that don't agree with the use of waterboarding... but know the difference between being against it and deeming it torture...

I can easily accept someone being against it... but trying to use it as a political jab or yet another excuse to try and chant the "Bush is a war criminal" bullshit is just absurd

I do consider waterboarding, as well as some of the other "enhanced interrogation techniques," to be torture. And, i'd love to see those who don't explaining to our founding fathers why we "needed" to engage in those kinds of acts.

I think that they could put into perspective what it means to sacrifice to be the land of the free, and the home of the brave. And, torturing suspects under duress isn't it.

But by definition, it really is not.. now would I blame someone from trying to get it as a banned practice because of their feelings on it? Nope.... I am just against sensationalizing the issue to use as yet another partisan shit-storm...

 

[Immanuel]

Many conservatives and REPs have continually spoke out against torture.... it is just that most everything the peacenicks or far lefties consider torture is not really torture

Many conservatives and REPs have continually spoke out against torture.... it is just that most everything the peacenicks or far lefties consider torture is not really torture

Dave, you are damnable liar.

If you are calling him a liar for the part of his statement about conservatives and Republicans being against torture, then I would have to say that I am here as proof that conservatives have been against torture from the get go. I have opposed it from the day I first learned of it. That would mean you are either a liar or mistaken. Since I don't think you are deliberately distorting the truth, I must say that I know you are mistaken.

I will also state that I can't think of many other conservatives that spoke out against it, but I am one.

If you are calling him a liar for the part of his statement about liberals calling things that are not torture, torture... well then, I'd say that would be a matter of definition. I believe waterboarding is torture. The fact that President Bush justifies torture by claiming it is not torture is reprehensible to me, but I would not call him (Dave) a liar for simply disagreeing with a definition.

Immie

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ravi
Can you tell a mass murderer or terrorist by just looking at them?



Quote: Originally Posted by PubliusInfinitum You bet... I know when I was in the business of capturing bad guys, we used these things called "Photographs"... as a general rule, they would give us some inside skinny on the target; why he was being sought and where we might find him... As part of the package, these "Photographs" sometimes referred to as 'Pictures' were provided, so that when we got closer... we could determine who the bad-guy was... They're VERY good for that kinda thing.

Here's an example of such... and just for fun, this is a 'picture' of a known terrorist:



Courtesy of these folks: http://britandgrit.com/wp-content/up...ksmohammed.jpg

EPIC FAIL!

Congrats... few people will continue to such levels of abject humiliation and expose their absolute absence of veracity... you have just proven yourself to be nothing short of an inveterate LIAR.

Not sure what you are trying to say, Pubic...you agreed that you could tell a terrorist or mass murder by looking at someone and you coughed up a picture of someone that you can look at and know he's a terrorist and a mass murderer.

Maybe you should take yourself off to the middle east and shoot whomever you see that "looks" like a terrorist or mass murderer.

Nope... Not even close Stickpin...

What I provided was an unambiguous explanation wherein information is forwarded against individuals who have declared war on the US, are known to be engaged in the prosecution of MASS MURDER... the overt, wholly intentional KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE... and are targeted to be siezed and interrogated, so as to pry from them the critical information regarding their organization; the plans and processes of their organization, as well as the identity of those who comprise their organization; so that the information can be used to PREVENT that organization from executing MASS MURDER.

And, For the Record: there are Hundreds of thousands of Americans who are in the region reasonably believed to be infested by terrorists, who are seeking out, closing with and killing those who look and act like terrorists... YA see sis... that's the nature of war.

Sadly, the problem with terrorists is, they don't wear uniforms; they don't identify themselves as combatants and they use idiots, just like yourself, to PROTECT THEM... they NEED IDIOTS JUST LIKE YOU, to SIT ON MESSAGE BOARDS AND PROJECT THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT FOR THEM... TO STAND ON THAT DOUBT AND PROCLAIM THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW WHAT A TERRORIST LOOKS LIKE...

BECAUSE SUCH IDIOCY PROVIDES THEM WITH THE ADVANTAGE THEY NEED TO MAXIMIZE THEIR EFFORTS... YOUR ADVOCACY MAKES IT EASIER TO MURDER MASSIVE NUMBERS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE... BECAUSE YOUR ADVOCACY MAKES IT HARDER TO STOP THEM FROM DOING SO.

 

[007]

Crap. Yes, people have died from it, and we hung some Japanese for doing it to our soldiers. Your morality is on show here. You are no better than the Terrorists that we are fighting.

Cram your sensationalist bull crap and show me where someone that was water boarded by American intelligence died.

You tend not to die from having your fingernails pulled out as well.

No one is contending we did that, or electrocute people... are you people so caught up in your torture witch hunt zeal that you can't stick to the facts? Why do you liberals constantly bend, twist, spin and otherwise have to turn an issue into something other than what it is?

 

[WillowTree]

I'm done talking about waterboarding. Democwats are in charge and the decision has already been made. I just don't want to hear any phony cries of sympathy from them when the next attack occurs.. You've been told that waterboarding did prevent one in LA you have been educated and your decision has been made.