Conservatives Start Speaking Out Against Torture

[Yurt]

so did people both private and public who did return slaves when the constitution mandated it compromise our principles?

Um, no... I don't understand this first sentence in context of your argument.

what about all those who drank during the prohibition, did they compromise our principles?

Is sobriety an American principle?

Or are equality, human dignity, courage, self-reliance, and freedom American principles?

is returning slaves to their rightful owner an american principle? read the constitution, it was originally mandated that slaves be returned to their owners...

so much for your stuff and torture principles...

 

[catzmeow]

But people weren't subjected to days, weeks or months of that were they?

in fact sleep deprivation was only used for limited periods and well short of causing any severe mental disruption. And really staying up for a couple days does no real harm, just ask any medical student.

dousing in cold water was not done continuously for hours as you imply but sporadically and the prisoners were never even at risk of hypothermia.

neither of those techniques cause lasting physical or mental harm if any at all.

The problem is that we don't know exactly what was done, for how long, and to whom. But, I hope we will. And, if what I suspect is accurate, there should be criminal prosecutions resulting from both political parties.

Staying up for a couple of days can result in dementia, thus compromising the very intelligence that it was designed to collect.

See, none of these tactics WORK BETTER than standard interrogation tactics. When I say work better, I mean provide more ACCURATE, validated intel. That's the problem with them. Sure, people will tell you stuff, but the problem with torture has always been that confessions gained through the use of torture are notoriously inaccurate.

Thus, I fail to see the reason to use these tactics. Particularly when we have enough scientifically validated data on effective interview and interrogation techniques.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I've never taken any position as to those other procedures.

Again we will have to agree to disagree on waterboarding then. i do not see how a technique that is designed to scare someone without causing lasting physical harm is torture.

Honestly, I've never had it done to me. So I can't personally comment on it. But from what I've read it is a horrible procedure and everyone I've read who has had it applied to them calls it torture.

And again, the fact that our Govt considered it a war crime is pretty strong proof for me.

But at the end of the day, I apply the "golden rule." If we are adopting a rule, is this rule something I want applied to Americans as well? Are you comfortable with Govts being able to legitimately waterboard Americans over and over to get them to say something? I'm not.

the golden rule is fine one on one but i also realize that the converse applies. Those that wish to do harm unto us shall have harm done unto them first.

 

[WillowTree]

The goal of torture, whether it is physical or mental, is to dehumanize someone and remove their will to resist. Such practices are inherently un-democratic.

There is a difference between standard interrogation techniques with the suspect in a crime, and repeatedly using physical/mental pain to break someone down over months/years.

Furthermore, these tactics do not have credibility in terms of effectiveness. Aside from the moral implications of state sponsored torture, they don't work any better at accessing credible information than standard interrogation techniques.

Thus, there is no practical reason for using them.

But you haven't told me why sleep deprivation, for example, is torture or how it dehumanizes people.

a technique must first be deemed torture, no? so please tell me how each of those techniques in your opinion actually is torture.

I am trying to reconcile how keeping someone awake, or grabbing their lapels equates to bamboo under the fingernails, or the wrenching of joints until they dislocate. Or how splashing cold water on someone's chest, or feeding them tasteless but nutritionally complete meals is akin to beating the bottoms of one's feet with a cane, or breaking someone's fingers one by one.

How is sleep deprivation torture, and how does it dehumanize people?

Here ya go........

Physiological effects

Generally, lack of sleep may result in[2][3]

* aching muscles[4]
* hallucinations[5]
* hand tremors[6]
* irritability[2]
* memory lapses or loss[7]
* severe yawning[2]
* temper [tantrum]s in children[2]
* symptoms similar to:
o Attention-deficit Hyperactivity Disorder[2]

[edit] Diabetes

A 1996 study by the University of Chicago Medical Center showed that sleep deprivation severely affects the human body's ability to metabolize glucose, which can lead to early-stage Diabetes Type 2.[8]

[edit] Effects on the brain

Sleep deprivation can adversely affect brain function.[9] A 2000 study, by the UCSD School of Medicine and the Veterans Affairs Healthcare System in San Diego, used functional magnetic resonance imaging technology to monitor activity in the brains of sleep-deprived subjects performing simple verbal learning tasks.[10] The study showed that regions of the brain's prefrontal cortex displayed more activity in sleepier subjects. Depending on the task at hand, the brain would sometimes attempt to compensate for the adverse effects caused by lack of sleep. The temporal lobe, which is a brain region involved in language processing, was activated during verbal learning in rested subjects but not in sleep deprived subjects. The parietal lobe, not activated in rested subjects during the verbal exercise, was more active when the subjects were deprived of sleep. Although memory performance was less efficient with sleep deprivation, greater activity in the parietal region was associated with better memory.

A 2001 study at Chicago Medical Institute suggested that sleep deprivation may be linked to more serious diseases, such as heart disease and mental illnesses, such as psychosis and bipolar disorder.[citation needed] A 2003 Universtity of California study found that REM sleep deprivation alleviates clinical depression. Although the mechanism is unclear it is suggested that the deprivation mimics the effects of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI). However, the study also indicated that REM sleep was essential for blocking neurotransmitters and allowing the neurotransmitter receptors to "rest" and regain sensitivity which in turn leads to improved regulation of mood and increased learning ability. Non REM sleep may allow enzymes to repair brain cell damage caused by free radicals. High metabolic activity while awake damages the enzymes themselves preventing efficient repair. The study observed the first evidence of brain damage in rats as a direct result of sleep deprivation.[11]

Animal studies suggest that sleep deprivation increases stress hormones, which may reduce new cell production in adult brains.[12]

[edit] Effects on growth

A 1999 study[13] found that sleep deprivation resulted in reduced cortisol secretion the next day, driven by increased subsequent slow-wave sleep. Sleep deprivation was found to enhance activity on the Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (which controls reactions to stress and regulates body functions such as digestion, the immune system, mood, sex, or energy usage) while suppressing growth hormones. The results supported previous studies, which observed adrenal insufficiency in idiopathic hypersomnia.

[edit] Effects on the healing process

A study conducted in 2005 showed that a group of rats which were deprived of REM sleep for five days had no significant effect on their ability to heal wounds, compared to a group of rats not deprived of "dream" sleep.[14] The rats were allowed deep (NREM) sleep. However, another study conducted by Gumustekin et al.[15] in 2004 showed sleep deprivation hindering the healing of burns on rats.

[edit] Impairment of ability

According to a 2000 study published in the British Medical Journal, researchers in Australia and New Zealand reported that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.[16] People who drove after being awake for 17–19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent, which is the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries (the U.S. and U.K. set their blood alcohol limits at .08 percent). In addition, as a result of continuous muscular activity without proper rest time, effects such as cramping are much more frequent in sleep-deprived individuals. Extreme cases of sleep deprivation have been reported to be associated with hernias, muscle fascia tears, and other such problems commonly associated with physical overexertion. Beyond impaired motor skills, people who get too little sleep may have higher levels of stress, anxiety and depression, and may take unnecessary risks. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, over 100,000 traffic accidents each year in the USA alone are caused by fatigue and drowsiness.[17] A new study has shown that while total sleep deprivation for one night caused many errors, the errors were not significant until after the second night of total sleep deprivation.[18]

The response latency seem to be higher when it comes to actions regarding personal morality rather than in situations when morality is not in question. The willingness to violate a personal belief has been shown to be moderated by EQ, so people with high EQ are affected less by sleep deprivation in such situations.[19]

[edit] Obesity

Several large studies using nationally representative samples suggest that the obesity problem the United States might have as one of its causes a corresponding decrease in the average number of hours that people are sleeping.[20][21][22] The findings suggest that this might be happening because sleep deprivation could be disrupting hormones that regulate glucose metabolism and appetite.[23] The association between sleep deprivation and obesity appears to be strongest in young and middle-age adults. Other scientists hold that the physical discomfort of obesity and related problems, such as sleep apnea, reduce an individual's chances of getting a good night's sleep.

Sleep deprivation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unless.....of course, you consider psychos to be humanized.

so does jumping out of 110 story buildings on fire with jet fuel splashed all over one's body dehumanize? x3000? Why yes I think it does.

 

[catzmeow]

is returning slaves to their rightful owner an american principle? read the constitution, it was originally mandated that slaves be returned to their owners...

so much for your stuff and torture principles...

Is it your goal to have people take your arguments seriously here? If so, I strongly recommend that you think before you post. This is, by far, the WORST justification of torture that I have yet to read.

 

[Yurt]

.....I approach this from the just torture tradition in which torture, however vile, is sometimes defensible against a greater evil.....

Is there a greater evil than a government that justifies torturing people without adjudicating guilt?

what about returning slaves to their owners?

am i to take it by your comment that if there is no doubt as to guilt and knowledge that could save a life, you would condone some torture...

 

[catzmeow]

the golden rule is fine one on one but i also realize that the converse applies. Those that wish to do harm unto us shall have harm done unto them first.

So, let's see. THat's like walking down a crowded street in Los Angeles and opening fire, hoping that the bullets will randomly hit people who have warrants for criminal activity.

 

[Yurt]

is returning slaves to their rightful owner an american principle? read the constitution, it was originally mandated that slaves be returned to their owners...

so much for your stuff and torture principles...

Is it your goal to have people take your arguments seriously here? If so, I strongly recommend that you think before you post. This is, by far, the WORST justification of torture that I have yet to read.

where do the principles you claim are against torture come from then? where is the authority that torture illegal come from?

 

[manu1959]

.....I approach this from the just torture tradition in which torture, however vile, is sometimes defensible against a greater evil.....

Is there a greater evil than a government that justifies torturing people without adjudicating guilt?

if you are at war hasn't guilt already been assigned.....

 

[Skull Pilot]

But people weren't subjected to days, weeks or months of that were they?

in fact sleep deprivation was only used for limited periods and well short of causing any severe mental disruption. And really staying up for a couple days does no real harm, just ask any medical student.

dousing in cold water was not done continuously for hours as you imply but sporadically and the prisoners were never even at risk of hypothermia.

neither of those techniques cause lasting physical or mental harm if any at all.

The problem is that we don't know exactly what was done, for how long, and to whom. But, I hope we will. And, if what I suspect is accurate, there should be criminal prosecutions resulting from both political parties.

Staying up for a couple of days can result in dementia, thus compromising the very intelligence that it was designed to collect.

See, none of these tactics WORK BETTER than standard interrogation tactics. When I say work better, I mean provide more ACCURATE, validated intel. That's the problem with them. Sure, people will tell you stuff, but the problem with torture has always been that confessions gained through the use of torture are notoriously inaccurate.

Thus, I fail to see the reason to use these tactics. Particularly when we have enough scientifically validated data on effective interview and interrogation techniques.

We'll have to disagree. When I hear that intelligence that resulted in the foiling of an attack was obtained via the CIA enhanced interrogation techniques and that it was not obtained via other techniques, that alone says harsh interrogation has its uses.

And FYI it takes a lot more than 48 hours of no sleep to cause dementia. Have you ever done it? i have and with no lasting ill effects.

 

[catzmeow]

if you are at war hasn't guilt already been assigned.....

Not necessarily. The people who were tortured were SUSPECTS, not enemy combatants. Key word there, suspect. It means guilt has NOT been assigned.

 

[ABikerSailor]

so does jumping out of 110 story buildings on fire with jet fuel splashed all over one's body dehumanize? x3000? Why yes I think it does.

Only trouble is Willow, jumping out of a 110 story building on fire with jet fuel ISN'T torture.

It's death.

Try again ya dumb bitch. Only this time.....throw more of that GOP bullshit into it, and come up with something along the lines of Dachau.

Maybe then you'll make a point somewhere other than the top of your head.

 

[Yurt]

what is worse

1. mildly tortured prisoner who you reaonably believe possesses information that could save one life, the torture is not permanent. no permanent disfigurement....and information given that saved the life

or

2. the dead innocent life that could have been saved

 

[Skull Pilot]

the golden rule is fine one on one but i also realize that the converse applies. Those that wish to do harm unto us shall have harm done unto them first.

So, let's see. THat's like walking down a crowded street in Los Angeles and opening fire, hoping that the bullets will randomly hit people who have warrants for criminal activity.

puhlease. the people at gitmo were there for a reason. This is about preventing a terrorist attack designed to kill as many innocent people as possible not to find some idiot who didn't pay his parking tickets. Context is everything.

 

[catzmeow]

where do the principles you claim are against torture come from then? where is the authority that torture illegal come from?

The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, that was passed by our congress, and signed into law in 1984 by Ronald Reagan.

If you want to torture people, it would be a good idea to change the law, FIRST.

 

[Ravi]

.....I approach this from the just torture tradition in which torture, however vile, is sometimes defensible against a greater evil.....

Is there a greater evil than a government that justifies torturing people without adjudicating guilt?

if you are at war hasn't guilt already been assigned.....

We don't torture captured soldiers because they are basically pawns to their countries, no? And why would we torture suspected terrorists?

 

[Iriemon]

Again we will have to agree to disagree on waterboarding then. i do not see how a technique that is designed to scare someone without causing lasting physical harm is torture.

Honestly, I've never had it done to me. So I can't personally comment on it. But from what I've read it is a horrible procedure and everyone I've read who has had it applied to them calls it torture.

And again, the fact that our Govt considered it a war crime is pretty strong proof for me.

But at the end of the day, I apply the "golden rule." If we are adopting a rule, is this rule something I want applied to Americans as well? Are you comfortable with Govts being able to legitimately waterboard Americans over and over to get them to say something? I'm not.

the golden rule is fine one on one but i also realize that the converse applies. Those that wish to do harm unto us shall have harm done unto them first.

That is not the converse to the golden rule. It is the antithesis.

 

[Yurt]

where do the principles you claim are against torture come from then? where is the authority that torture illegal come from?

The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, that was passed by our congress, and signed into law in 1984 by Ronald Reagan.

If you want to torture people, it would be a good idea to change the law, FIRST.

ok, then you agree that those who did not return slaves, per the constitution and i am sure dozens of state laws making it criminal hence why in the constitution....were guilty of either violating the constituion (government actor) and/or state law? is that right?

that if people did not want to return slaves they had better change the law first....right...

 

[catzmeow]

We'll have to disagree. When I hear that intelligence that resulted in the foiling of an attack was obtained via the CIA enhanced interrogation techniques and that it was not obtained via other techniques, that alone says harsh interrogation has its uses.

And FYI it takes a lot more than 48 hours of no sleep to cause dementia. Have you ever done it? i have and with no lasting ill effects.

And, yet CIA officers have come out publicly to state definitively that we already had the intel that was gained through the use of these tactics. I've seen the claim, but there are plenty within the CIA who are disputing that claim.

 

[Skull Pilot]

We'll have to disagree. When I hear that intelligence that resulted in the foiling of an attack was obtained via the CIA enhanced interrogation techniques and that it was not obtained via other techniques, that alone says harsh interrogation has its uses.

And FYI it takes a lot more than 48 hours of no sleep to cause dementia. Have you ever done it? i have and with no lasting ill effects.

And, yet CIA officers have come out publicly to state definitively that we already had the intel that was gained through the use of these tactics. I've seen the claim, but there are plenty within the CIA who are disputing that claim.

i haven't seen that link?