Classified Papers Prove German Warnings to Bush

[Trajan]

thanks for trying to read the OP.

you did not get it, however, but found a way to point your fingers at obamacare.

hey your article framed the issue, I got it exactly, it was a politically risky move- risk vs. reward on a political scale. I used an example exactly in context. I am sorry if that's inconvenient.

you reframed the issue.

the issue has not been changed nor reframed, your own article makes the case; the CRUX OF THE MATTER..is POLITICS, the cost etc.

You are familiar with the definition of the word term Crux?

it appears you simply don't like being given an example that exposes your op for the self serving agitprop it is.

if you think I reframed the 'issue', really, then I must question your ability to comprehend the written word and parse simple analogy.

 

[Samson]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

How can you tell that the Germans are the biggest pussies in Europe?

While I agree that "German Warnings," wouldn't hold much water, whether or not they were correct then (should the USA refer to Germany for all their future decisions?), the Dutch are clearly the biggest pussies in Europe.

I base this on the Dutchbat commanded by the retarded and cowardly Col. Thomas J.P. (Thom) Karremans in Srebrenica during the Bosnia Conflict.

 

[L.K.Eder]

hey your article framed the issue, I got it exactly, it was a politically risky move- risk vs. reward on a political scale. I used an example exactly in context. I am sorry if that's inconvenient.

you reframed the issue.

the issue has not been changed nor reframed, your own article makes the case; the CRUX OF THE MATTER..is POLITICS, the cost etc.

You are familiar with the definition of the word term Crux?

it appears you simply don't like being given an example that exposes your op for the self serving agitprop it is.

if you think I reframed the 'issue', really, then I must question your ability to comprehend the written word and parse simple analogy.

nice try.

why did you snip the rest of my post, where i explained it to you.

crux. and liars.

i don't feel the need to post an incomplete star trek motto in latin on my profile,
but i know latin, you clown.

 

[Trajan]

the issue has not been changed nor reframed, your own article makes the case; the CRUX OF THE MATTER..is POLITICS, the cost etc.

You are familiar with the definition of the word term Crux?

it appears you simply don't like being given an example that exposes your op for the self serving agitprop it is.

if you think I reframed the 'issue', really, then I must question your ability to comprehend the written word and parse simple analogy.

nice try.

why did you snip the rest of my post, where i explained it to you.



crux. and liars.

i don't feel the need to post an incomplete star trek motto in latin on my profile,
but i know latin, you clown.

uh huh...so you're down to attacking my profile quote? when you cannot beat the ass beat the saddle eh?




responsum tuum et miserabilis ignorabat.

 

[The Rabbi]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

How can you tell that the Germans are the biggest pussies in Europe?

While I agree that "German Warnings," wouldn't hold much water, whether or not they were correct then (should the USA refer to Germany for all their future decisions?), the Dutch are clearly the biggest pussies in Europe.

I base this on the Dutchbat commanded by the retarded and cowardly Col. Thomas J.P. (Thom) Karremans in Srebrenica during the Bosnia Conflict.

OK, you're right. I was mis-stating when I called them the biggest pussies in Europe. there are many contenders. The Belgians have a good shot at it. Their military is simply an extension of their social welfare programs and the average age of their soldiers is in the 30s.
But the Germans are pretty fucking weak.

 

[DaGoose]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

How can you tell that the Germans are the biggest pussies in Europe?

While I agree that "German Warnings," wouldn't hold much water, whether or not they were correct then (should the USA refer to Germany for all their future decisions?), the Dutch are clearly the biggest pussies in Europe.

I base this on the Dutchbat commanded by the retarded and cowardly Col. Thomas J.P. (Thom) Karremans in Srebrenica during the Bosnia Conflict.

OK, you're right. I was mis-stating when I called them the biggest pussies in Europe. there are many contenders. The Belgians have a good shot at it. Their military is simply an extension of their social welfare programs and the average age of their soldiers is in the 30s.
But the Germans are pretty fucking weak.

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

 

[Trajan]

How can you tell that the Germans are the biggest pussies in Europe?

While I agree that "German Warnings," wouldn't hold much water, whether or not they were correct then (should the USA refer to Germany for all their future decisions?), the Dutch are clearly the biggest pussies in Europe.

I base this on the Dutchbat commanded by the retarded and cowardly Col. Thomas J.P. (Thom) Karremans in Srebrenica during the Bosnia Conflict.

OK, you're right. I was mis-stating when I called them the biggest pussies in Europe. there are many contenders. The Belgians have a good shot at it. Their military is simply an extension of their social welfare programs and the average age of their soldiers is in the 30s.
But the Germans are pretty fucking weak.

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

was it politically damaging? sure. But thats a lot to ponder, if we are going to monday morning QB, if wmd had been found, then?

 

[rdean]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

For the right wing, no one has any credibility but Bush, even when there are endless video montages of Bush and his cronies saying one lie and then another and then another. Even when their lies completely contradict each other.

Right wingers believe Obama took a 200 million dollar a day trip. Many believe Obama is the anti Christ.

"What makes sense" is probably the truth.

Bush One chased Saddam back to Iraq. What makes sense is that our CIA kept a close watch on Iraq after Iraq invaded another country and was soundly defeated. Only an idiot turns his back on an enemy. Right wingers want us to believe our CIA are idiots. I don't believe that. It doesn't make sense.

Of course, our right wing doesn't make sense. At least not for the last 30 years since the crazies took over the party.

 

[DaGoose]

OK, you're right. I was mis-stating when I called them the biggest pussies in Europe. there are many contenders. The Belgians have a good shot at it. Their military is simply an extension of their social welfare programs and the average age of their soldiers is in the 30s.
But the Germans are pretty fucking weak.

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

was it politically damaging? sure. But thats a lot to ponder, if we are going to monday morning QB, if wmd had been found, then?

If active WMD, and the ability to deliver them to targets, were actually found then I would be eating my words and admitting that Bush was right.

But guess what? They WEREN'T found and a select few on here STILL think that the deaths of over 4,000 soldiers are acceptable.

 

[blu]

You're relying on the words of a 60s radical and a country that was secretly violating sanctions and playing footsie with Saddam in Food for Oil?? Really????
The Germans have no credibility on this issue. None. They are the biggest pussies in Europe, afraid of everything, most of all themselves.

fallacccyyyyyyyy

 

[Samson]

OK, you're right. I was mis-stating when I called them the biggest pussies in Europe. there are many contenders. The Belgians have a good shot at it. Their military is simply an extension of their social welfare programs and the average age of their soldiers is in the 30s.
But the Germans are pretty fucking weak.

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

was it politically damaging? sure. But thats a lot to ponder, if we are going to monday morning QB, if wmd had been found, then?

Obviously, the Germans are clairvoyant, and the most intelligent (race?) of people on the planet, and the US government should never make a decision about which the Germans disagree.

 

[hipeter924]

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

was it politically damaging? sure. But thats a lot to ponder, if we are going to monday morning QB, if wmd had been found, then?

Obviously, the Germans are clairvoyant, and the most intelligent (race?) of people on the planet, and the US government should never make a decision about which the Germans disagree.

To add to the fun, all hail the master race!

 

[Gunny]

not that that is a surprise:

Berlin Efforts to Prevent Iraq Invasion: Classified Papers Prove German Warnings to Bush - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Gerhard Schröder and Joschka Fischer made every effort they could. The German chancellor and foreign minister spared no effort with their appeals, whether in public or private, in small groups or with the eyes of the entire world upon them. In the end, though, it was all for naught. Then-United States President George W. Bush wouldn't allow anyone to change his mind. He was dead set on launching a war against Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and thereby bringing "freedom," as he put it, to the Middle East. It was a freedom that Bush described as " God's gift to mankind."

..

SPIEGEL has now obtained a previously secret copy of notes taken from a conversation in February 2003 marked "Classified Information -- For Internal Use Only." At that time, in was just a matter of weeks before US soldiers invaded Iraq. Klaus Scharioth, a Berlin-based state secretary in the German Foreign Ministry, had flown to Washington in the hope of still having a chance of changing the minds of Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser at the time, and other high-ranking members on the National Security Council.
Costs of War 'Higher than Political Returns'
According to the notes -- all in German -- the meeting amounted to 90 minutes of verbal blows, which primarily stemmed from Rice's "relatively rigorous and uncompromising" defense of the US position. The same notes indicate that Scharioth didn't budge an inch toward Washington, either. In retrospect, though, they document a high point in German diplomatic history, because the objections and predictions put forward by Berlin on that Tuesday have turned out to be legitimate and correct.
The crux of the German argument was that the political costs of a war in Iraq would be "higher than (the) political returns." While Rice predicted that Iraq would take advantage of the "opportunities for reconstruction" like the ones Germany enjoyed after 1945, the delegation from Berlin countered that the rapid establishment of a democracy in Baghdad was "not (to be) expected."
The Germans also predicted that the real beneficiary of a war in Iraq would actually be Iran, and that a US-led attack would further complicate efforts to reach a solution in the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Likewise, they prophesized that going to war would precipitate a "terrorist backlash." Scharioth stressed that it was important "to win over the hearts and minds of the Muslim elite and youths," according to the notes, and that this was "not to be achieved" by going to war. He also added that doing so would greatly increase the danger of prompting an "influx to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism."

This remarkable conversation was held just a few days after the now-infamous speech that then-US Secretary of State Colin Powell delivered in New York before the UN Security Council.

..

Spend a lot of time on this same old bullshit?

 

[blu]

not that that is a surprise:

Berlin Efforts to Prevent Iraq Invasion: Classified Papers Prove German Warnings to Bush - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Gerhard Schröder and Joschka Fischer made every effort they could. The German chancellor and foreign minister spared no effort with their appeals, whether in public or private, in small groups or with the eyes of the entire world upon them. In the end, though, it was all for naught. Then-United States President George W. Bush wouldn't allow anyone to change his mind. He was dead set on launching a war against Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and thereby bringing "freedom," as he put it, to the Middle East. It was a freedom that Bush described as " God's gift to mankind."

..

SPIEGEL has now obtained a previously secret copy of notes taken from a conversation in February 2003 marked "Classified Information -- For Internal Use Only." At that time, in was just a matter of weeks before US soldiers invaded Iraq. Klaus Scharioth, a Berlin-based state secretary in the German Foreign Ministry, had flown to Washington in the hope of still having a chance of changing the minds of Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser at the time, and other high-ranking members on the National Security Council.
Costs of War 'Higher than Political Returns'
According to the notes -- all in German -- the meeting amounted to 90 minutes of verbal blows, which primarily stemmed from Rice's "relatively rigorous and uncompromising" defense of the US position. The same notes indicate that Scharioth didn't budge an inch toward Washington, either. In retrospect, though, they document a high point in German diplomatic history, because the objections and predictions put forward by Berlin on that Tuesday have turned out to be legitimate and correct.
The crux of the German argument was that the political costs of a war in Iraq would be "higher than (the) political returns." While Rice predicted that Iraq would take advantage of the "opportunities for reconstruction" like the ones Germany enjoyed after 1945, the delegation from Berlin countered that the rapid establishment of a democracy in Baghdad was "not (to be) expected."
The Germans also predicted that the real beneficiary of a war in Iraq would actually be Iran, and that a US-led attack would further complicate efforts to reach a solution in the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Likewise, they prophesized that going to war would precipitate a "terrorist backlash." Scharioth stressed that it was important "to win over the hearts and minds of the Muslim elite and youths," according to the notes, and that this was "not to be achieved" by going to war. He also added that doing so would greatly increase the danger of prompting an "influx to Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism."

This remarkable conversation was held just a few days after the now-infamous speech that then-US Secretary of State Colin Powell delivered in New York before the UN Security Council.

..

Spend a lot of time on this same old bullshit?

what a stunning comeback gunny! seems the alcohol binge still has you slow

 

[Obamerican]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

The only thing that saves Germany is the generations that are dying and the current generations forgetting that GERMANY started TWO world wars. I wonder where Europe would be today if the Germans weren't the aggressive assholes that some of us know they are. It sets you back a lot when your German neighbors keep attacking you and breaking everything. Arrogant pricks.

 

[Samson]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

The only thing that saves Germany is the generations that are dying and the current generations forgetting that GERMANY started TWO world wars. I wonder where Europe would be today if the Germans weren't the aggressive assholes that some of us know they are. It sets you back a lot when your German neighbors keep attacking you and breaking everything. Arrogant pricks.

You don't have a fucking clue what this thread is about.

Obamerican is a fitting Username.

 

[L.K.Eder]

But back to the OP....were the Germans right???? Or are you going to simply do what others do when they can't disprove the message and resort to attacking the messenger?

was it politically damaging? sure. But thats a lot to ponder, if we are going to monday morning QB, if wmd had been found, then?

Obviously, the Germans are clairvoyant, and the most intelligent (race?) of people on the planet, and the US government should never make a decision about which the Germans disagree.

it is only monday morning quarterbacking if it concerns monday night football. you know, like the OP.

and this is no german specialty, a lot of non-bush admin cronies said the same thing then. they were smeared, too.

the bush cronies went to the azores and had their summit.

and the rest is history.

 

[L.K.Eder]

nice try.

why did you snip the rest of my post, where i explained it to you.



crux. and liars.

i don't feel the need to post an incomplete star trek motto in latin on my profile,
but i know latin, you clown.

uh huh...so you're down to attacking my profile quote? when you cannot beat the ass beat the saddle eh?




responsum tuum et miserabilis ignorabat.

attacking your profile quote? after you tried to steal some height by telling me i did not know the word crux, you sad airbag? heheheh

you are such a little pretentious hack...

your latin is wrong, of course.

miserabilis est, if at all.

but you tried to tell me that it will be ignored because my response is pathetic. there are nifty little ways in latin to convey that.


the english version would be something like:

your answer being pathetic ignored it will be.

try to put that in your cheap online translator.

 

[L.K.Eder]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

The only thing that saves Germany is the generations that are dying and the current generations forgetting that GERMANY started TWO world wars. I wonder where Europe would be today if the Germans weren't the aggressive assholes that some of us know they are. It sets you back a lot when your German neighbors keep attacking you and breaking everything. Arrogant pricks.

ah, another great american thinker.

nice to meet you.

try not to drown in a puddle of vomit.

 

[L.K.Eder]

rabbi, it is useless trying to reason with guys like you.

the bush administration was set from the beginning to find a way to invade iraq and find a justification for it.

they seized the opportunity 9/11 presented.

but the facts were not on their side, and on top of that, they lacked diplomatic skills, being basically narrow-minded arrogant pricks like you.

that's why they had to lie and hoodwink other governments and their US american opposition into supporting their drum-up to war, as a last resort, they told.

it was their FIRST resort.

that became clearer and clearer between 2002 and 2003.

that's why france, russia and germany told them publically NO, not with us.

not under these pretenses.

when powell's bizarre clownery before the UN failed, they went ahead anyway, because that's what they wanted.

no warnings, no doubts, no intelligence would ever have changed that.

they wanted in.

and they did.

and it happened like it was predicted by many sides.

and now you sit on a deficit and blame it on obama and the democrats who voted for the authorization of power.

iraq is destroyed, many life's lost, and america-haters are having one field-day after another. lol

dunce.

The only thing that saves Germany is the generations that are dying and the current generations forgetting that GERMANY started TWO world wars. I wonder where Europe would be today if the Germans weren't the aggressive assholes that some of us know they are. It sets you back a lot when your German neighbors keep attacking you and breaking everything. Arrogant pricks.

You don't have a fucking clue what this thread is about.

Obamerican is a fitting Username.

yeah, that one was even moar speshial than the rest.